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| Correctifier needed 28/04/2014 at 05:19 #59643 | |
maxand
1637 posts |
On more than one occasion I have ended up with a Train Description (TD) in a berth not corresponding to anything on the Train List; I the Timetable List and the Simplifier but am none the wiser. OK, it might well have been due to a typo on my part when copying in a new service, but could also be the result of a timetable error, etc. The main problem is that when I most need to signal the driver to do something unorthodox (usually after a train has behaved in an unexpected way), I need to select the correct TD on the Train List first. If the TD in the berth happens to be in error, I can't just right-click that and issue instructions. What's needed is some way to confirm that the TD displayed in the berth corresponds to what SimSig thinks it is. Unfortunately, the Train List works only in the reverse direction. The easiest solution would be to have a TD berth R-click context menu option named "Train List TD" or similar. Another solution would be a broader menu option to check all TDs shown on the panel and change any that don't match the "correct" version on the Train List. This would have to take into account empty berths holding other data such as BLOK. I have a feeling this issue has been raised in the past but couldn't find a suitably relevant thread. Last edited: 28/04/2014 at 05:21 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Correctifier needed 28/04/2014 at 05:53 #59644 | |
Peter Bennet
5362 posts |
If you don't have ACI then any TD imposed must be entirely due to your input and if it is wrong then it's your doing. If the ACI has got it wrong then that's probably a bug of some description. Any timetable errors should be picked up by "Analysing" the timetable. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Correctifier needed 28/04/2014 at 06:13 #59645 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Quote:If you don't have ACI then any TD imposed must be entirely due to your input and if it is wrong then it's your doing. If the ACI has got it wrong then that's probably a bug of some description. Any timetable errors should be picked up by "Analysing" the timetable.ACI = Automatic Code Insertion I agree with all that, but it doesn't help me reconcile SimSig's TD with mine. What do you think of my suggestion? Log in to reply |
| Correctifier needed 28/04/2014 at 06:46 #59646 | |
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Hawk777
386 posts |
My guess is current behaviour is prototypical—the train describer doesn’t know the truth, it just carries arbitrary strings of characters that you or a fringe provide from place to place as TCs occupy. If you can’t figure out what a train’s actual headcode is because the TD berth has the wrong thing in it, there are a few ways to solve the problem. One is to dig through the (also-non-prototypical!) train list. Another is to note a red signal in advance of the train, remember/write down the signal number, and wait for a phone call from somebody standing at that signal. A third option (albeit one that you would never do IRL) is to intentionally give the train an ACOA, then note the train ID to which the ACOA occurred. I suppose if this were ever to happen in real life (despite assurances from the real-life signallers on here that it couldn’t happen because the signaller should remember all the trains), as another option one might try routing the train into a station and then calling the stationmaster or platform staff to ask what train just arrived.
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| Correctifier needed 28/04/2014 at 09:13 #59649 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
I agree with Hawk777, the Train Describer's behaviour is likely to be entirely prototypical! Well here's an example of such a problem taken from the Exeter sim, default TT (Summer 2006). 2F41 from Exeter St Davids finally terminates at Exmouth where it becomes a new train, 2A43, departing 6 minutes later in the reverse direction. When I decide 2F41 has finally come to a standstill (no OL here), I display its TT and change its TD to 2A43. about ten minutes later I return to this area of the sim and set a route for 2A43 from Exton to Topsham. Five minutes later and still no sign of movement from 2A43. What's happening? Open the Train List, no mention of 2A43. What train turned into 2A43? Did I bother to create a sticky note at Exmouth and laboriously copy the old TD into it? Naw, why should I? Let's try the Simplifier. After much "faffing" [must add that to the SimSig-specific Glossary] (it only lists 2 hours from the set time and I was running 4 hours late) I finally discovered it was 2F41. OK, I could have exported the TT as arrdep.txt and checked that, and maybe I should have, and maybe I will next time, but it still seems pretty clumsy and time-consuming. OK, now back to the Train List. Aha, it does know about 2F41. And what's this train doing? Facing Dn, burying its nose in the buffer stops. Wet leaves on the rails in summer? Hardly. Why isn't it moving? Gorblimey, its driver is on the phone! Location? Exeter St. Thomas, I kid you not. Now that train could be anywhere between there and Exmouth. The phone message is even terser; no mention of which buffer stops, signal ID or anything that might be useful. And SimSig thinks I should tell him to reverse. Why couldn't he have done that and why didn't SimSig update the train list to show the new TD? As Peter Bennet wrote, Quote: If the ACI has got it wrong then that's probably a bug of some description.It's moments like these you need Minties - or a Correctifier, to make the Train Describer just that little bit smarter than in real life. Last edited: 28/04/2014 at 09:14 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Correctifier needed 28/04/2014 at 09:19 #59650 | |
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Peter Bennet
5362 posts |
To get in the mess you appear to have got into it sounds like the train's locations have not been ticked off correctly as it progressed. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Correctifier needed 28/04/2014 at 10:10 #59653 | |
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AndyG
1835 posts |
From the evidence, it would appear (for whatever reason) 2F41 got of of synch somewhere after Exeter St Thomas, and has been expecting its next location at Exeter St D, but never actually reached ESD, has been reversed, and proceeded down towards Exmouth vainly trying to arrive at ESD, still doing so at the buffers at Exmouth. Thus when it gets to the buffers, it won't form the next working as it's still trying to reach ESD. It needed its TT stepping up(ie reset the current/next location) then all will be well. Indeed, if set to Exmouth whilst at the stops, it ought to immediately form its next working without further ado. Tip:- if at any time you click on a TD and its TT window shows 'No History' in Last reported Status, then that train/TD is not in the simulation nor in the F2 list. I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Correctifier needed 28/04/2014 at 11:29 #59659 | |
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y10g9
895 posts |
" said:I was running 4 hours late I don't know what others think, but this might be one of the causes of the problems that you are experiencing max Log in to reply |
| Correctifier needed 28/04/2014 at 11:59 #59663 | |
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Finger
220 posts |
" said:" said:I'd rather say "symptom" than cause - this actual problem happens regardless of delay. However, I'm still puzzled how did he manage to pass a train from Ex St. Thomas to Ex. Central without stopping at EXSD; I suspect either fiddling with the timetable or accepting a train in a full platform (so that it never arrived).I was running 4 hours late Log in to reply |
| Correctifier needed 28/04/2014 at 12:50 #59671 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Quote:I was running 4 hours lateI guessed you guys would all notice that one. Maybe I should have expressed it as "When I got to this train, it happened to be running 4 hours late"! Most of the other trains were more or less within their timetables. I have no idea why some became incredibly delayed - I've kept up with telephone calls, etc. Ah me. The mysteries of MH370 are simple compared with those of SimSig. Seriously though, when a train is displayed as "at the buffer stop" it would be nice if the devs included to which station or siding they are referring (in both the Train List and Telephone Messages). Last edited: 28/04/2014 at 12:53 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Correctifier needed 28/04/2014 at 13:09 #59677 | |
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Peter Bennet
5362 posts |
" said:In this instance the train is most likely to be at buffer stops in reality but for Sim Purposes it actually means the train has reached the end of a TC that is not linked to another TC and is a generic message. Agreed it's most likely to be buffer stops (or a bug). Provided the TC is linked to a location it maybe possible to provide more details to the user. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Correctifier needed 28/04/2014 at 13:12 #59678 | |
postal
5190 posts |
" said:. . . when a train is displayed as "at the buffer stop" it would be nice if the devs included to which station or siding they are referring (in both the Train List and Telephone Messages).Once again that bit of the wheel has already been invented (although maybe with a few more clicks than the purist ergonomists would like). In F2 go to Edit Timetable for the train and the TT window will pop up with the current or last known location recognised by the sim shown in bold. You can then highlight the location where the train is sitting, click on "Set Current Location" and it should bring things back into sync. At a location where there are activities then the activities will start (like changing to the next working or whatever). If you have got so badly out of sync it may be quicker to just use F2 to "run to another TT" and allocate the correct TT for what you want the train to do. If you do that you need to edit the TT through F2 to set the correct current or last location so that the sim can pick up the running of the train from the correct point. You can also use this method to turn trains back short (so for example if you had a Barnstaple - Exmouth service running substantially late you might decide to turn it at Exeter Central to form the return working). Run the train into Central then use F2 to assign the TT for the return working to the train. Open the TT through F2, click on Exeter Central, set it as the current location and it will then depart Exeter Central and follow the rest of the TT as scheduled. Don't worry about the passengers. This is quite a common procedure on the UK railway and the passengers either have to wait for the next train or are put in taxis to their destination depending on how generous the TOC is. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 28/04/2014 at 13:13 by postal Log in to reply |
| Correctifier needed 28/04/2014 at 14:00 #59685 | |
pedroathome
890 posts |
" said:for example if you had a Barnstaple - Exmouth service running substantially late you might decide to turn it at Exeter Central to form the return workingI have been on a train which has done this. Got caught behind a points failure at Crediton so had to wait at Eggesford for around half hour before the train could proceed. I think in this case the train got turned back at Topsham due to the frequent nature of trains on that line. James Log in to reply |
| Correctifier needed 28/04/2014 at 16:11 #59693 | |
Steamer
3924 posts |
" said:If you want, you can change the TD as soon as the train leaves Topsham. There's no penalty for it, and in the unlikely event a mysterious train calls in delayed at Exmouth, Lympstone or Exton there's only one train it could be. Quote: Did I bother to create a sticky note at Exmouth and laboriously copy the old TD into it? Naw, why should I?To avoid issues like this, perhaps? Quote: Location? Exeter St. Thomas, I kid you not. Now that train could be anywhere between there and Exmouth. The phone message is even terser; no mention of which buffer stops, signal ID or anything that might be useful.Did you do anything unusual with the train? I've never encountered a train that latches itself randomly at St. Thomas, so I suspect there was a user error somewhere. Quote: And SimSig thinks I should tell him to reverse. Why couldn't he have done that and why didn't SimSig update the train list to show the new TD?Because drivers don't move without your authority. The TD didn't change because the train still thought it was at/going to St. Thomas. Quote: As Peter Bennet wrote,Largely irrelevant, as ACI isn't provided at Exeter. I've just run a test train from Paignton to Exmouth, calling at all stations, which behaved as expected. Do you have a set of saves? Again, can't help but think you've gone wrong somewhere. EDIT TO ADD: Quote: [The simplifier] only lists 2 hours from the set time and I was running 4 hours lateI think a feature has been requested for trains to only drop off the simplifier after they've actually left. In addition, it would be nice if the Simplifier could be enhanced to allow up to 24 hours to be displayed. Any thoughts? "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 28/04/2014 at 17:15 by Steamer Log in to reply |
| Correctifier needed 28/04/2014 at 20:44 #59711 | |
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peterb
451 posts |
" said:Well here's an example of such a problem taken from the Exeter sim, default TT (Summer 2006). 2F41 from Exeter St Davids finally terminates at Exmouth where it becomes a new train, 2A43, departing 6 minutes later in the reverse direction. When I decide 2F41 has finally come to a standstill (no OL here)This is incredibly subjective. How do you 'decide' 2F41 was at a standstill? Also, how do you know it was 2F41 in the first place? Someone else has suggested, change the TD after it leaves Topsham. Better still, you could also set the route off the single line back to Topsham in the reverse direction (once it is clear of the circuit) to save you having to go back and do it later. I also miss the point re: why you're using the simplifier first here. On F2, there should be a maximum of two trains with the last location "Topsham", it should be one of them. Otherwise the use of some logic should help to deduce which trains are which, and Exeter isn't really (comparatively) that complex an area. That however is during normal running. As others have pointed out, I also can only assume you have done something yourself, misintentionally or otherwise, and entered the wrong headcode. ACI isn't available and there's no other reason I can see why the sim would get it wrong. A saved game would be great at this point. But as I say, I suspect human error here. Log in to reply |
| Correctifier needed 29/04/2014 at 06:35 #59719 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
I'm a bit confused on how you have 2F41 4 hours late. This train is captive in the sim from about 05:00 and is one of numerous trains that all follow the same route on a 1/2 hourly frequency. So either you've had it sitting around somewhere for 4 hours calling in every 15 mins to say it's waiting (And also for 2F43, 2F45...2F55), or it's been getting progressivly later with each trip since it started that morning, again with a knock on effect to the aformentioned trains, or alterantivly (and this may explain your issue) you've changed the train somewhere along the way to a train that is four hours late, possibly between two stations which would also explain your issues.
Noisynoel Log in to reply |
| Correctifier needed 29/04/2014 at 06:57 #59720 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Quote:This is incredibly subjective. How do you 'decide' 2F41 was at a standstill? Well, since as I said there's no OL segment at Exmouth to assist me, I can only wait for its TD to appear in the Exmouth berth and add a margin for extra time based on my experience with similar trains. That is, without resorting to the Train List. Quote: Because drivers don't move without your authority. The TD didn't change because the train still thought it was at/going to St. Thomas. On several occasions in this particular TT when a train has, say, arrived at ESD from Exmouth and is on its way to, say, Paignton, when I click its TT it shows me the whole TT from Exmouth to Paignton, not just the bit from ESD to Paignton. Surely this must be a bug in the TT code. On other occasions in this TT I click a headcode and the Show TT window displays a different route for the same headcode. I didn't document any of this unfortunately but next time I can bring myself to revisit this TT I promise to do so. It's also possible that as I've had to revert to saved games many times to continue playing the same (unable to play for more than 30-60 mins at a stretch) some trains might have become "forgotten". On this run I was careful to heed all drivers who rang in. I apologise for the subjectivity of my earlier posts, but with little more to go on I was hoping that others might post in that they've had similar experiences with this TT. Quote: Did you do anything unusual with the train? I've never encountered a train that latches itself randomly at St. Thomas, so I suspect there was a user error somewhere.Having had some experience with usability testing in other software applications, it never ceases to amaze me what users are capable of wringing out of supposedly well-behaved software and what starts out being called user error turns out with a little more documentation to be a well-hidden bug. Next time I will try to save as many games displaying these problems as I can. However, I do admit user error is still high on the list, and maybe if I used a keystroke logger it would help track some of these down. Log in to reply |
| Correctifier needed 29/04/2014 at 07:15 #59721 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
" said:I have to say, it sounds much more like user error, and that you have a wrongly described train. The behaviour you've seen is normal behaviour when the describer berth contains a train ID that exists in the timetable but is not a train currently in the sim. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Correctifier needed 29/04/2014 at 12:35 #59729 | |
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Finger
220 posts |
Quote:
Max, if you're knowledgeable about software testing, you should also recognize your report as totally lacking any instruction for reproduction. Given your "luck" you should probably just turn snapshots every 15 or maybe 12 minutes on, but if you say you play only 30-60 minutes at a time, the last save should also do. Also, you should remember if you had brutalized the train in any way - passed signal at danger, reversed, abandoned/reinstated the timetable or accepted it in a full platform for instance. On a slightly different subject, note that SimSig is not (and I'd say it's for the best) foolproof. It may allow you do things that will hurt you, sometimes even without noticing you. For example, on the KX sim, you can, without penalty, send a train through Hertford loop even if it is timed through Welwyn, provided it doesn't miss any of its calling points. However, you must step up its timetable, or it won't stop/reverse/join/form next working where it should. You have the responsibility for running the trains and mustn't assume it just somehow happens. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Correctifier needed 29/04/2014 at 14:06 #59731 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
" said:Okay, so, give us a clue, which timetable are you referring too as there are several available for Exeter and at least two would have 2F41 in the timetable from what I recall. Having played Exeter a hell of a lot at one time I have played all the timetables and have never experienced any of the issues that you are finding. Noisynoel Log in to reply |
| Correctifier needed 29/04/2014 at 14:15 #59733 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Quote:Max, if you're knowledgeable about software testing, you should also recognize your report as totally lacking any instruction for reproduction.I was actually trying to enjoy playing this TT rather than running it simply to provide a comprehensive error report. I did apologize for the subjectivity of my earlier reports hoping others who like this TT might come out of the woodwork to confirm these problems, which might be minor for anyone fully conversant with editing TTs but major for those who are not. After 26 hours of sim time and goodness knows how many hours of real time, I felt so wasted the last thing I wanted to do was rerun this TT and pinpoint the errors. FreeCell seemed like a good alternative just then. Maybe the next time something untoward happens I'll make far more detailed notes than just saving a game and that will give all you guys who don't mind taking time to look at saved games a better opportunity to see what went wrong. A problem here is that I'm still unclear as to whether any steps I take to remedy errors are recommended ones or not. Often it's back to having a million monkeys with a million typewriters and telling 'em to click everything in sight. For example, I had a train that badly wanted to join another one; the latter got lost somehow or never appeared. So I took a train that had completed its TT and was sitting idle, renamed it to what the other wanted to join, gave it the right TT and tried to make the impossible happen. I'm sure the length was in the correct ballpark, juggled NX, FX and all. It was like trying to glue a magnetic north to a magnetic north. SimSig just laughed. Finally I sent both to the yards in disgust. Next time I'll give you full chapter and verse. Just to reassure everyone, particularly passengers, no trains were brutalized during the running of this sim. :cheer: Last edited: 29/04/2014 at 14:18 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Correctifier needed 29/04/2014 at 14:52 #59738 | |
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Peter Bennet
5362 posts |
" said:That sounds like a really good idea what the real railway does (maybe not as often as it should (in my view as a passenger)) but that somehow went wrong in execution. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Correctifier needed 29/04/2014 at 15:51 #59743 | |
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postal
5190 posts |
" said:For example, I had a train that badly wanted to join another one; the latter got lost somehow or never appeared. So I took a train that had completed its TT and was sitting idle, renamed it to what the other wanted to join, gave it the right TT and tried to make the impossible happen. I'm sure the length was in the correct ballpark, juggled NX, FX and all. It was like trying to glue a magnetic north to a magnetic north. SimSig just laughed. Finally I sent both to the yards in disgust. Next time I'll give you full chapter and verse.Max Did you also remember to go into the TT for each train through F2 and make sure that the current location was correctly set for each train. If you do some ad hoc editing so that two trains can join at Exeter St Davids, you need to make sure that the sim thinks they are both at St Davids. If the sim does not think that both trains are at the location where the activity is due to happen then the activity won't take place. Have you ever thought about joining a multiplayer session so that you can see how others manage things. If you just want to sit and observe rather than operate a panel, most hosts are happy to let that happen. This may help you to understand where you are getting into trouble when other users seem to manage quite successfully, particularly as it seems from some of your recent posts that you are not fully in control of things yet. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 29/04/2014 at 15:51 by postal Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Correctifier needed 29/04/2014 at 15:54 #59744 | |
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AndyG
1835 posts |
" said:" said:As ForestPines said, if the whole TT is displayed rather than just the locations still to be visited, then the train is either at the very start of its journey, or doesn't exist. In the latter case, it will also show 'No History' in the display whereas in the former it will show as early/on time/late.I have to say, it sounds much more like user error, and that you have a wrongly described train. The behaviour you've seen is normal behaviour when the describer berth contains a train ID that exists in the timetable but is not a train currently in the sim. I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Correctifier needed 29/04/2014 at 16:01 #59747 | |
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Lardybiker
771 posts |
It also could be that a train had completed it's journey and is now called something else. If that's the case, the final stop will show what the new ID of the train should be.
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |