Hand cranking points at Chalfont

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Hand cranking points at Chalfont 17/09/2014 at 15:09 #64611
Muzer
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There was a points failure of the points PJT47A/B, losing normal detection. I tried hand cranking them to normal, and a down (northbound) train simply said "stopped at signal" despite having been authorised to pass it at danger (occasionally it would flick to 0mph and then back to stopped), and an up train (from Amersham) complained that points were set against him. Is this a bug or have I missed some subtlety about hand cranking?
Last edited: 17/09/2014 at 15:09 by Muzer
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Hand cranking points at Chalfont 17/09/2014 at 19:10 #64612
Jay_G
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I believe it's a bug with hand cranking, I have had the same problem too (on other sims)
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Hand cranking points at Chalfont 17/09/2014 at 22:07 #64613
BarryM
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What method are you using to hand crank the points?

Barry

Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
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Hand cranking points at Chalfont 17/09/2014 at 22:14 #64615
Muzer
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Incident control panel, select the points, under "hand crank" change from "auto" to "normal".
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Hand cranking points at Chalfont 18/09/2014 at 03:22 #64618
BarryM
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" said:
Incident control panel, select the points, under "hand crank" change from "auto" to "normal".
I would be interested in investigating this further. Do you have a save?

Barry

Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
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Hand cranking points at Chalfont 18/09/2014 at 10:33 #64623
Muzer
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You're lucky - the snapshots have quite neatly fallen on two useful-sounding states:

After the failure; before the crank: 0530

After the crank, both trains stopped before points: 0540

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Hand cranking points at Chalfont 19/09/2014 at 04:55 #64629
BarryM
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" said:
There was a points failure of the points PJT47A/B, losing normal detection. I tried hand cranking them to normal, and a down (northbound) train simply said "stopped at signal" despite having been authorised to pass it at danger (occasionally it would flick to 0mph and then back to stopped), and an up train (from Amersham) complained that points were set against him. Is this a bug or have I missed some subtlety about hand cranking?
Muzer, Not a bug!

Here is the procedure using your 0530 save:
1. Remove lock on the reversed points. (Right click)
2. Go to F11 and select POINTS.
3. Click on point PJT47A, click on Hand Crank NORMAL button.
4. Click on point PJT47B, tick NORMAL DETECTION AVAILABLE
5. Close F11.
6. Go to the track and double left click on the oscillating points. The point will return to normal and you can set the appropriate signals.

A402, after the driver calls in, will go on its merry way.

Hope this helps
Barry

Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
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Hand cranking points at Chalfont 19/09/2014 at 06:00 #64630
Late Turn
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" said:
" said:
There was a points failure of the points PJT47A/B, losing normal detection. I tried hand cranking them to normal, and a down (northbound) train simply said "stopped at signal" despite having been authorised to pass it at danger (occasionally it would flick to 0mph and then back to stopped), and an up train (from Amersham) complained that points were set against him. Is this a bug or have I missed some subtlety about hand cranking?
Muzer, Not a bug!

Here is the procedure using your 0530 save:
1. Remove lock on the reversed points. (Right click)
2. Go to F11 and select POINTS.
3. Click on point PJT47A, click on Hand Crank NORMAL button.
4. Click on point PJT47B, tick NORMAL DETECTION AVAILABLE
5. Close F11.
6. Go to the track and double left click on the oscillating points. The point will return to normal and you can set the appropriate signals.

A402, after the driver calls in, will go on its merry way.

Hope this helps
Barry

Isn't that rather a cheat, though, reinstating normal detection through the F11 menu when, because of the failure, it shouldn't be possible to obtain detection? It should be possible to run trains over a set of points that have been hand cranked, even if no detection is available or it hasn't been possible to key the points to match their position on the ground, and that appears to be what's wrong here.

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Hand cranking points at Chalfont 19/09/2014 at 08:17 #64631
kbarber
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" said:
" said:
" said:
There was a points failure of the points PJT47A/B, losing normal detection. I tried hand cranking them to normal, and a down (northbound) train simply said "stopped at signal" despite having been authorised to pass it at danger (occasionally it would flick to 0mph and then back to stopped), and an up train (from Amersham) complained that points were set against him. Is this a bug or have I missed some subtlety about hand cranking?
Muzer, Not a bug!

Here is the procedure using your 0530 save:
1. Remove lock on the reversed points. (Right click)
2. Go to F11 and select POINTS.
3. Click on point PJT47A, click on Hand Crank NORMAL button.
4. Click on point PJT47B, tick NORMAL DETECTION AVAILABLE
5. Close F11.
6. Go to the track and double left click on the oscillating points. The point will return to normal and you can set the appropriate signals.

A402, after the driver calls in, will go on its merry way.

Hope this helps
Barry

Isn't that rather a cheat, though, reinstating normal detection through the F11 menu when, because of the failure, it shouldn't be possible to obtain detection? It should be possible to run trains over a set of points that have been hand cranked, even if no detection is available or it hasn't been possible to key the points to match their position on the ground, and that appears to be what's wrong here.
Seconded... inserting the crank should itself cut the detection until restored by the S&T. Working would then proceed without any detection, points being clipped for the passage of trains and trains being talked by the protecting signal(s) when the signalman has been advised that the points are secured as instructed.

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Hand cranking points at Chalfont 19/09/2014 at 09:44 #64632
clive
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" said:
There was a points failure of the points PJT47A/B, losing normal detection. I tried hand cranking them to normal, and a down (northbound) train simply said "stopped at signal" despite having been authorised to pass it at danger (occasionally it would flick to 0mph and then back to stopped), and an up train (from Amersham) complained that points were set against him. Is this a bug or have I missed some subtlety about hand cranking?
Raised as Mantis 11577. For the up train, the "are points set against train" logic isn't checking for hand cranking, just for detection. I suspect the down train's problem is related.

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Hand cranking points at Chalfont 19/09/2014 at 09:51 #64633
BarryM
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[quote="kbarber" post=64631Seconded... inserting the crank should itself cut the detection until restored by the S&T. Working would then proceed without any detection, points being clipped for the passage of trains and trains being talked by the protecting signal(s) when the signalman has been advised that the points are secured as instructed.[/quote]

I have been "shot down in flames"! You guys are quite correct. Leaving the fault there, it took S&T 105 minutes to fix. One for Geoff?

Barry

Muzer, it looks like you will have to cheat or wait!

Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Last edited: 19/09/2014 at 09:55 by BarryM
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Hand cranking points at Chalfont 19/09/2014 at 11:09 #64636
Jay_G
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Thought I would just add, I previously raised this when I tried it in KX, and maybe WH+Vic. So it seems to be a possible simwide issue.
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Hand cranking points at Chalfont 20/09/2014 at 10:42 #64653
Izzy
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Inserting the crank into a point machine does not (in most cases) break the detection circuit, only the motor drive circuit. On older schemes, the point handle was locked in a holder in the signal box - and removing the crank handle from this piece of kit would break detection and drive circuits, but not the action of putting a crank in the machine.

On Network Rail, these are becoming pretty rare now - i am not sure about LUL. If these Crank Handle Contact Boxes aren't installed on a scheme, then it is perfectly possible to wind a set of points by hand and gain detection. These contact boxes are generally found in smaller PSB's from the mid 1950's and earlier, or in small mechanical signal boxes with power worked points.

Incidentally, where these contact boxes are fitted, there is a different handle for each set of points - the handle being keyed to only fit in that machine. So if you needed to wind a lot a different sets, you could have loads of handles to take outside - although some remote points had these boxes fitted in location boxes trackside near the points, this was rare and they normally resided in the the signal box or relay room. If you are on the S&T, you didnt need to bother with all the seperate handles as there is a master crank handle that will fit all the machines of that type, regardless of key configurations.

The idea behind this was that if you had the handle, as a point operator, then all the while you had this handle, you were protected by the signalling whilst out operating the points. If you were S&T, using the master handle, then you had to take other precautions for your own safety. The biggest risk was that by not removing the handle from the contact box, the points could motor without warning, and a crank handle spinning at those speeds will certainly break bones (and has done, a few times).

These days, there are a few general standard points crank handles (for the different types of machine)and placing the crank handle in the machine breaks ONLY the motor circuit (except for clamplocks, where you have a switch to isolate them).

As for LUL - particularly Rickmansworth and the north Met, i think they still use the handle contact box (but it is a long time since i was in that area, so i don't know for sure).

Edit:- The three major signalling contractors all had their own way of doing this, MetVick (Metropolitan Vickers), Westinghouse and SGE. The MetVick machines so fitted were 5A, 5E, and 5P types. The Westinghouse machine was M3 or M3A. SGE had the HA and HB machines. There may be others, but these are the types i am aware of that could be fitted with this arrangement.

Last edited: 20/09/2014 at 10:55 by Izzy
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Hand cranking points at Chalfont 22/09/2014 at 09:12 #64684
kbarber
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" said:
Inserting the crank into a point machine does not (in most cases) break the detection circuit, only the motor drive circuit. On older schemes, the point handle was locked in a holder in the signal box - and removing the crank handle from this piece of kit would break detection and drive circuits, but not the action of putting a crank in the machine.

On Network Rail, these are becoming pretty rare now - i am not sure about LUL. If these Crank Handle Contact Boxes aren't installed on a scheme, then it is perfectly possible to wind a set of points by hand and gain detection. These contact boxes are generally found in smaller PSB's from the mid 1950's and earlier, or in small mechanical signal boxes with power worked points.

Incidentally, where these contact boxes are fitted, there is a different handle for each set of points - the handle being keyed to only fit in that machine. So if you needed to wind a lot a different sets, you could have loads of handles to take outside - although some remote points had these boxes fitted in location boxes trackside near the points, this was rare and they normally resided in the the signal box or relay room. If you are on the S&T, you didnt need to bother with all the seperate handles as there is a master crank handle that will fit all the machines of that type, regardless of key configurations.

The idea behind this was that if you had the handle, as a point operator, then all the while you had this handle, you were protected by the signalling whilst out operating the points. If you were S&T, using the master handle, then you had to take other precautions for your own safety. The biggest risk was that by not removing the handle from the contact box, the points could motor without warning, and a crank handle spinning at those speeds will certainly break bones (and has done, a few times).

These days, there are a few general standard points crank handles (for the different types of machine)and placing the crank handle in the machine breaks ONLY the motor circuit (except for clamplocks, where you have a switch to isolate them).

As for LUL - particularly Rickmansworth and the north Met, i think they still use the handle contact box (but it is a long time since i was in that area, so i don't know for sure).

Edit:- The three major signalling contractors all had their own way of doing this, MetVick (Metropolitan Vickers), Westinghouse and SGE. The MetVick machines so fitted were 5A, 5E, and 5P types. The Westinghouse machine was M3 or M3A. SGE had the HA and HB machines. There may be others, but these are the types i am aware of that could be fitted with this arrangement.
I have an idea the remote contact boxes were called Heppers Releases, I think Barking (the 1960 box) used to have them and there were release switches on the panel (Metro-Vickers) too, unless memory fails me. I don't think there was any such provision at Hackney Downs (similar vintage, but Westinghouse), certainly there was just a crank handle in a box in the chargeman's office at Clapton for cranking Clapton Junction (that was where the key for the emergency panel was kept as well). However there were a number of switches still in the panel from which the operating knobs had been removed so it's possible there had been similar releases there, too, back in the day. It may be relevant that I was at Barking (station supervisor) from about 1981 - 83 and at Enfield (station manager, covering Hackney) 1985 - 87; I have an idea various changes to standards and provisions occurred around that time.

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