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Signalling Sequence Question

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Signalling Sequence Question 25/01/2015 at 09:39 #68357
kaiwhara
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Hi All

Quick question, as this doesn't appear to be covered in the manual. I currently have 62 cleared, Green aspect. In the rear, 60 is a Single Yellow towards 62, and 58 at Double Yellow (Barriers Down) towards 60.

Now I have seen examples of this in New Zealand, so my question's are, 1) Is this right? (which it actually could be given the speed reductions in the area), and 2) If it is, is the reduction of speed the reason?

See Screenshot.





Andrew

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Sorry guys, I am in the business of making people wait!
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Signalling Sequence Question 25/01/2015 at 09:46 #68358
GW43125
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495 posts
I believe the linespeed over that junction towards Fratton is 20mph, which could explain the sequence.
Last edited: 25/01/2015 at 09:46 by GW43125
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Signalling Sequence Question 25/01/2015 at 09:57 #68359
KymriskaDraken
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963 posts
My money is on it being approach-released from yellow because of the low-speed junction. 60 isn't approach released for the route around the Spur. If the other signals permit 60 will clear to a green straight away.


Kev

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Signalling Sequence Question 25/01/2015 at 12:17 #68361
DriverCurran
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682 posts
Andrew

This has been based on the information I had available at the time, I have raised an issue on the internal fault board for my own reference.

Paul

You have to get a red before you can get any other colour
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Signalling Sequence Question 25/01/2015 at 19:49 #68378
kaiwhara
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Thanks Paul

I only raised it because it wasn't mentioned in the Wiki. It actually does make sense for the signalling to work this way. My question was more about whether it actually was like that?

Cheers

Andrew

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Signalling Sequence Question 25/01/2015 at 21:16 #68383
Colourlight
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I would be interested to know if that sequence of signals is actually done in the real world today. I ask because I am wondering if it is at all possible for a driver to look ahead and focus on the green signal and ignore the yellow (60) signal which would create a risk of over speeding or worse. I mention it because I don,t know the area, and a similar thing has been known to occur in the past at other locations. In one case that I know of, a train smashed though a set of crossing gates because of this reason, oops!
I think that would be much more likely to occur in semaphore signal areas where they can have varying degrees of brightness and are less visible than colour lights.

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Signalling Sequence Question 25/01/2015 at 21:19 #68384
lazzer
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600 posts
" said:
I ask because I am wondering if it is at all possible for a driver to look ahead and focus on the green signal and ignore the yellow (60) signal which would create a risk of over speeding or worse.
Always drive to the signal in front of you. Reading through to any signal is a dangerous practice.

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Signalling Sequence Question 25/01/2015 at 21:22 #68385
DriverCurran
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" said:
I would be interested to know if that sequence of signals is actually done in the real world today. I ask because I am wondering if it is at all possible for a driver to look ahead and focus on the green signal and ignore the yellow (60) signal which would create a risk of over speeding or worse. .
The whole area was resignalled in 2007, and the sim is based on the pre-resignalling. This means that the current conditions applied to the current version of these signals (which may or may not be in the same place or have the same aspect configuration) are possibly different to the situation captured by the simulation.

Paul

You have to get a red before you can get any other colour
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Signalling Sequence Question 25/01/2015 at 21:26 #68386
AndyG
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1830 posts
Unlikely, the panel schematic layout is somewhat different to the real geographical layout, I think the G in advance of 60 won't be visible until after the junction.

The route from Cosham to Farlington Jn is virtually straight.

I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either.
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Signalling Sequence Question 25/01/2015 at 22:18 #68391
kaiwhara
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584 posts
The Scheme Plan for the current Signalling shows that the same route has Flashing Yellows in the rear.

Andrew

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Signalling Sequence Question 25/01/2015 at 22:39 #68392
Danny252
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1461 posts
" said:
" said:
I ask because I am wondering if it is at all possible for a driver to look ahead and focus on the green signal and ignore the yellow (60) signal which would create a risk of over speeding or worse.
Always drive to the signal in front of you. Reading through to any signal is a dangerous practice.
Well, yes, that's all good as long as the signal that you think is the one in front of you is actually the one in front of you...

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Signalling Sequence Question 25/01/2015 at 22:45 #68393
clive
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2736 posts
" said:
I would be interested to know if that sequence of signals is actually done in the real world today. I ask because I am wondering if it is at all possible for a driver to look ahead and focus on the green signal and ignore the yellow (60) signal which would create a risk of over speeding or worse.
If it's possible to "read through" to the signal following the junction, that signal would be held at red until the train is approaching the junction signal. One common arrangement is for both signals to release to green when the train passes the AWS inductor for the junction signal. The same applies to flashing yellow sequences.

Last edited: 26/01/2015 at 06:39 by clive
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Signalling Sequence Question 26/01/2015 at 12:18 #68407
lazzer
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600 posts
" said:
" said:
" said:
I ask because I am wondering if it is at all possible for a driver to look ahead and focus on the green signal and ignore the yellow (60) signal which would create a risk of over speeding or worse.
Always drive to the signal in front of you. Reading through to any signal is a dangerous practice.
Well, yes, that's all good as long as the signal that you think is the one in front of you is actually the one in front of you...
God help you lot if you ever become drivers ...

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Signalling Sequence Question 26/01/2015 at 14:27 #68413
Aurora
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183 posts
" said:
Quick question, as this doesn't appear to be covered in the manual. I currently have 62 cleared, Green aspect. In the rear, 60 is a Single Yellow towards 62, and 58 at Double Yellow (Barriers Down) towards 60.

Now I have seen examples of this in New Zealand, so my question's are, 1) Is this right? (which it actually could be given the speed reductions in the area), and 2) If it is, is the reduction of speed the reason?

See Screenshot.



I don't have the answer just looking and thinking...


What you see in a sim isn't necessarily the way it looks in real life i.e. curvature.

The main route from Cosham may be to Farlington Jct rather than to Portcreek Jct, although the curvature on the sim says otherwise.

Nil.
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Signalling Sequence Question 26/01/2015 at 15:08 #68414
Danny252
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1461 posts
" said:
" said:
" said:
" said:
I ask because I am wondering if it is at all possible for a driver to look ahead and focus on the green signal and ignore the yellow (60) signal which would create a risk of over speeding or worse.
Always drive to the signal in front of you. Reading through to any signal is a dangerous practice.
Well, yes, that's all good as long as the signal that you think is the one in front of you is actually the one in front of you...
God help you lot if you ever become drivers ...
Because I'm open to the idea that, despite their efforts, drivers can make a mistake, and that trying to ensure that the chance of this is reduced is a good thing?

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Signalling Sequence Question 26/01/2015 at 16:13 #68415
John
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The area has been resignalled, so is slightly different to the sim. Below is the current driver training map of the Cosham area.


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Signalling Sequence Question 26/01/2015 at 17:23 #68417
Jersey_Mike
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250 posts
Are those driver training maps available anywhere?
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Signalling Sequence Question 26/01/2015 at 17:44 #68418
madaboutrains
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307 posts
They are not available publicly
RIP Feltham Panel 1
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Signalling Sequence Question 26/01/2015 at 18:24 #68422
kaiwhara
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584 posts
" said:
God help you lot if you ever become drivers ...
I am a driver, and I can't say I have ever had that problem. If you know your route knowledge well enough, you should be able to avoid read through's. In this instance, the driver would have a fairly large amount of solid stuff to look through to be able to read through. He would have to have far better vision than me!

" said:

I don't have the answer just looking and thinking...

What you see in a sim isn't necessarily the way it looks in real life i.e. curvature.

The main route from Cosham may be to Farlington Jct rather than to Portcreek Jct, although the curvature on the sim says otherwise.
I'm also well aware of this concept. I am familiar with the location so am aware that the route from Cosham Jn to Farlington Jn is near enough a straight line, and from Cosham Jn to Portcreek is a fairly tight 90 degree curve, hence the reduced line speed.


All I have done guys is make an observation on what I considered an unusual Signalling Sequence. This sequence however is thoroughly plausible so I am/was looking for confirmation that it was correct. Indications are that this is correct.

Andrew

Sorry guys, I am in the business of making people wait!
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Signalling Sequence Question 27/01/2015 at 00:08 #68438
Aurora
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" said:
" said:
God help you lot if you ever become drivers ...
I am a driver, and I can't say I have ever had that problem. If you know your route knowledge well enough, you should be able to avoid read through's. In this instance, the driver would have a fairly large amount of solid stuff to look through to be able to read through. He would have to have far better vision than me!

" said:

I don't have the answer just looking and thinking...

What you see in a sim isn't necessarily the way it looks in real life i.e. curvature.

The main route from Cosham may be to Farlington Jct rather than to Portcreek Jct, although the curvature on the sim says otherwise.
I'm also well aware of this concept. I am familiar with the location so am aware that the route from Cosham Jn to Farlington Jn is near enough a straight line, and from Cosham Jn to Portcreek is a fairly tight 90 degree curve, hence the reduced line speed.


All I have done guys is make an observation on what I considered an unusual Signalling Sequence. This sequence however is thoroughly plausible so I am/was looking for confirmation that it was correct. Indications are that this is correct.

It's a usual sequence then, assuming 60 and 58 are flashing? Don't have this sim so someone will have to advise on this.

Nil.
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Signalling Sequence Question 27/01/2015 at 06:35 #68449
clive
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2736 posts
" said:
" said:

All I have done guys is make an observation on what I considered an unusual Signalling Sequence. This sequence however is thoroughly plausible so I am/was looking for confirmation that it was correct. Indications are that this is correct.

It's a usual sequence then, assuming 60 and 58 are flashing? Don't have this sim so someone will have to advise on this.
It's a usual sequence when the preceding signals are flashing. It's a less common, but still legal, sequence when they aren't.

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Signalling Sequence Question 27/01/2015 at 07:48 #68453
kaiwhara
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584 posts
" said:

It's a usual sequence then, assuming 60 and 58 are flashing? Don't have this sim so someone will have to advise on this.
The signals that replaced them indeed do flash. These ones, as they are in the sim, pre resignalling don't. Hence the question.

Sorry guys, I am in the business of making people wait!
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Signalling Sequence Question 27/01/2015 at 10:10 #68457
Aurora
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183 posts
" said:
" said:
It's a usual sequence then, assuming 60 and 58 are flashing? Don't have this sim so someone will have to advise on this.
It's a usual sequence when the preceding signals are flashing. It's a less common, but still legal, sequence when they aren't.

Usually though, the other sequence is an approach-locked red signal before the junction.

" said:
The signals that replaced them indeed do flash. These ones, as they are in the sim, pre resignalling don't. Hence the question.

Nice to finally be on the same page :)

Never played this sim so would have assumed the yellows were flashing otherwise.

Nil.
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Signalling Sequence Question 27/01/2015 at 15:36 #68476
Jersey_Mike
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" said:

Usually though, the other sequence is an approach-locked red signal before the junction.
Are those on a timer or do they clear based on train location?

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Signalling Sequence Question 27/01/2015 at 15:56 #68477
Firefly
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521 posts
Depends. 9 times out of 10 it's a timer.

In some cases it's sufficient to release the signal as soon as the train has passed the yellow caution of the signal in rear therefore no timer would be required.

FF

Last edited: 27/01/2015 at 15:57 by Firefly
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