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Please explain timetable format

You are here: Home > Forum > General > General questions, comments, and issues > Please explain timetable format

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Please explain timetable format 15/02/2012 at 12:18 #29482
maxand
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1637 posts 		I'm still not clear about the exact meaning of time formats used in the Show Timetable window.

Some are straightforward, such as

SOUTHAMPTON CENTRAL 09:05 09:10
means the train arrives at 9:05, spends 5 minutes at the station, and departs at 09:10

But what's the difference between
MILLBROOK --:-- 09:03

and

MILLBROOK --:-- 09/03
My understanding is that the second is simply a waypoint which the train is expected to pass at at that time but not stop there. But what does the first mean?

I seem to remember seeing all this explained somewhere in the Wiki, the forum or the timetable writing guides. I've searched them all without finding the right page. Anyone know where it is?

Thanks.

(added) BTW, the train doesn't start from Millbrook, it's only a waypoint. It's actually 2W00 in the Southampton sim.
Last edited: 15/02/2012 at 12:24 by maxand
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Re: Please explain timetable format 15/02/2012 at 12:27 #29483
Late Turn
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696 posts 		The first Millbrook example is a stop just the same as the Southampton example above, just without an arrival time specified.
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Re: Please explain timetable format 15/02/2012 at 12:28 #29484
Peter Bennet
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5357 posts
Online 		The first simply means that there is a departure time and no arrival time. If you look at the Real Railway timetables you will see that generally only departure times are shown- it's only the bigger interchange stations that show both. Again there is probably no hard and fast rule but that's the gist.

Probably should add that the Sim has an inbuilt default stop time (which the Developer can override) so if the train is late it will still stop for, I think, 20 seconds.

The second is a passing time- i.e. non-stop.

Peter
I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
Last edited: 15/02/2012 at 12:32 by Peter Bennet
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Re: Please explain timetable format 15/02/2012 at 12:52 #29485
maxand
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1637 posts 		Thanks. So does the first Millbrook example really mean "Arrive whenever, but depart no earlier/later than 9:03"? Does the train actually stop at Millbrook in this example? (I guess Late Turn's already answered that one. I'll have to follow the train's speed as it passes through Millbrook on the Train List.)
Last edited: 15/02/2012 at 12:54 by maxand
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Re: Please explain timetable format 15/02/2012 at 13:01 #29486
Peter Bennet
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5357 posts
Online 		If any train has a time in either the arrival or departure column and no passing time "/" selected then it will stop.

There are other options like "set-down" but they all involve a stop- can't recall teh full details of all the options.

So to reiterate- if it has a / it will not stop- otherwise it will stop.


Peter
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Last edited: 15/02/2012 at 13:05 by Peter Bennet
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Re: Please explain timetable format 15/02/2012 at 13:02 #29487
Late Turn
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696 posts 		Yes, it will stop at Millbrook. You'll only generally find this arrangement where the dwell time is short (in reality, most seem to be timed for half-minute stops at Millbrook), in which case the arrival time isn't much use to you. Clearly, as in the Southampton example, you do need to consider the booked arrival time when regulating (to make sure the train arrives on time!) - but the arrival time (or lack of) won't affect the behaviour of the train itself - if you allow it to arrive early, it'll do so.
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Re: Please explain timetable format 15/02/2012 at 13:11 #29490
Peter Bennet
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5357 posts
Online 		Suggest you run some experiments with all the options available and see how it works.

Peter
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Re: Please explain timetable format 15/02/2012 at 13:14 #29491
maxand
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1637 posts 		OK, that's clear. So the colon (hh:mm) means it actually stops, for a short unspecified time - less than a minute, probably.

Much appreciated. I'm sure I've seen this in the Wiki somewhere...
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Re: Please explain timetable format 15/02/2012 at 13:59 #29494
Late Turn
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696 posts 		" said:
less than a minute, probably

...unless it has arrived "early" - in which case it'll wait time before departing - or there are timetable rules applying. In practice, it really doesn't make any difference (to the train) whether you specify an arrival time or not - it's just helpful at a busy station especially where trains have extended dwells, and (should?) trigger a penalty if the arrival is delayed (even if it can still depart on time).
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Re: Please explain timetable format 15/02/2012 at 14:01 #29495
GeoffM
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6280 posts 		If there is an arrival time then it is scored by SimSig, otherwise it doesn't matter what time it arrives. The departure/passing time is scored separately.
SimSig Boss
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Re: Please explain timetable format 15/02/2012 at 14:39 #29496
AndyG
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1834 posts 		Normal stops:
a --:-- d hh:mm = stops for default dwell times (30 secs), won't depart before dep time;
a hh:mm d hh:mm = stops, won't depart before dep time;

Passing:
a --:-- d hh/mm = passes non stop;
a hh:mm d hh/mm = stops, but will depart as soon as ready;

Other stops:
a --:-- d hhtmm = through line stop, typically for a stop at a station location on a non-platform line;
a --:-- d hhdmm = setdown stop, stops but departs as soon as ready;
(either can also have arr times if needed, typically for freight recessing in a loop).

Note that departures can also be affected with rules in some circumstances, eg to enforce longer dwells/turnround times when running late, to enforce connections etc.

Set-down stops can be used for trains at stops just before a final location, unlikely to have boarding passengers. In SimSigland they can also be used for ECS returning to depot, locos on run-rounds when the (freight) train is running early etc.
(Had already typed the above when Windows took it upon itself to to a update reboot :evil: )
I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either.
Last edited: 15/02/2012 at 16:07 by AndyG
Reason: typos/format
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Re: Please explain timetable format 15/02/2012 at 16:57 #29501
Steamer
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3920 posts
Online 		" said:
OK, that's clear. So the colon (hh:mm) means it actually stops, for a short unspecified time - less than a minute, probably.
No. If it's a colon in the departure colum, it means the train will depart at that time, and not before. Obviously, if the train is late, it will stop for a minimum amount of time and then depart. An arrival time may or may not be specified.

Rule of thumb is: Unless it is a passing time (shown as "/"), the train will stop at that location.
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Re: Please explain timetable format 15/02/2012 at 17:00 #29502
Steamer
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Online 		AndyG said:
hh:mm d hh/mm = stops, but will depart as soon as ready;
I've seen this on many TTs, but the train has always just passed through none-stop.
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Re: Please explain timetable format 15/02/2012 at 18:01 #29508
Peter Bennet
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5357 posts
Online 		Just checked the developer's manual

Default stop time is 35 seconds and when late 25 seconds subject to the actual departure time passing- non-class 1/2 trains do not necessarily wait time.

Peter
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Re: Please explain timetable format 15/02/2012 at 18:33 #29510
AndyG
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1834 posts 		My experience on all current simulations is:
Class 0,1,2,3 & 5 all wait time unless setdown stop.
Class 4, 6, 7, 8 may wait time or depart early on a random basis.

I know Class 0 definitely wait time, as if they are doing a run-round off a freight train that has run early, they will wait time unless setdown (or 00:00) times are used at the reversing locations and cause grief.

I think freights running early either wait time or want off straight away, not been aware of any that wait for just part of any slack time - maybe scope for a little teak maybe?
I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either.
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Re: Please explain timetable format 15/02/2012 at 19:53 #29517
mfcooper
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707 posts 		I was under the impression that

a hh:mm d hh/mm

caused a train not to stop at all, and was useful when editing a timetable in-sim during disruption to simulate "Not to Stop" orders given to a driver.
Last edited: 15/02/2012 at 19:54 by mfcooper
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Re: Please explain timetable format 15/02/2012 at 20:49 #29520
ralphjwchadkirk
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275 posts 		" said:
The first simply means that there is a departure time and no arrival time. If you look at the Real Railway timetables you will see that generally only departure times are shown- it's only the bigger interchange stations that show both. Again there is probably no hard and fast rule but that's the gist.

In VPR you can't 'not' specify an arrival time unless it is a passing time.
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Re: Please explain timetable format 16/02/2012 at 00:04 #29527
Aurora
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183 posts 		I only just specifically found this out (difference between : and /) the other day playing Exeter where I'm currently doing the 1980 48-hr timetable. Despite not stopping for passengers (i.e. no arrival time), I had had some trains stop at the signal before the crossover into Dawlish Warren and call me to correct the route (i.e. to run via the platforms) as I'd originally routed them straight through the main as there was no passenger stop scheduled. It wasn't till this happened a few times with seemingly random trains at DW and Totnes that I started to investigate when I noticed those stops had ':' in the timetable as opposed to the normal '/' (as with the other non-passenger stops).

" said:
Rule of thumb is: Unless it is a passing time (shown as "/"), the train will stop at that location.
Nil.
Last edited: 16/02/2012 at 00:05 by Aurora
Reason: Clean-up quoting
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Re: Please explain timetable format 16/02/2012 at 00:47 #29530
maxand
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1637 posts 		Thanks everyone for the great feedback on what began as a minor issue. Unless someone can remind me where to find it in the Wiki, I'll create a new page for this and link to it from the Wiki INDEX.
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Re: Please explain timetable format 16/02/2012 at 03:03 #29537
Josie
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310 posts 		" said:
AndyG said:
hh:mm d hh/mm = stops, but will depart as soon as ready;
I've seen this on many TTs, but the train has always just passed through none-stop.
The / character in the second column means the train will always pass and not stop. When there's a time specified in the first column as well, it usually means that a train is being looped or held somewhere but doesn't actually make a station call. I think there's a KX timetable which has some goods trains at Woolmer Green shown like that; if everything is running to plan, they wait at Woolmer Green on the Up Slow while something overtakes them on the Up Fast, arriving at the time in the first column and leaving at the time in the second column (although as it's a passing time, they'll leave as soon as they're signalled). If they're running late and don't need to be held, they can be signalled straight through and won't stop because the time has been marked as a passing time.
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Re: Please explain timetable format 16/02/2012 at 06:38 #29544
Peter Bennet
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Online 		" said:
Thanks everyone for the great feedback on what began as a minor issue. Unless someone can remind me where to find it in the Wiki, I'll create a new page for this and link to it from the Wiki INDEX.
There's a bit here which can probably be expanded upon.

Peter
I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
Last edited: 20/02/2012 at 06:49 by Peter Bennet
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Wrong routing at dawlish? 17/02/2012 at 14:06 #29634
maxand
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1637 posts 		Peter Bennet:
Quote:
There's a bit here which can probably be expanded upon.

That's what I was searching for! I thought I'd seen it somewhere before - timing codes near the bottom of the page. Big thanks.

{moved thread as requested by poster}
Last edited: 17/02/2012 at 23:23 by AndyG
Reason: as request
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Re: Please explain timetable format 20/02/2012 at 04:57 #29707
maxand
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1637 posts 		I'm trying to expand the Timing Codes section in the Wiki to help beginner players understand their meanings, by inserting some examples. Thanks AndyG and everyone else who contributed to this thread.

I'd appreciate further clarification in some areas:

ralphjwchadkirk:
Quote:
In VPR you can't 'not' specify an arrival time unless it is a passing time.

That's understandable, but what if it shows [a 12:36 d 12:36]? Does this mean the train departs at 12:36½, after its min dwell time of 30 secs? Or is this format avoided for this reason?

AndyG:
Quote:
a hh:mm d hh/mm = stops, but will depart as soon as ready

Steamer:
Quote:
I've seen this on many TTs, but the train has always just passed through non-stop.

mfcooper:
Quote:
[a hh:mm d hh/mm]caused a train not to stop at all, and was useful when editing a timetable in-sim during disruption to simulate "Not to Stop" orders given to a driver.

Josie:
Quote:
The / character in the second column means the train will always pass and not stop. When there's a time specified in the first column as well, it usually means that a train is being looped or held somewhere but doesn't actually make a station call.
Well, I adopted postal's advice and decided to try it out for myself. :)

Using Royston sim with Class 1 passenger trains, I can definitely say that it doesn't matter what arrival time one specifies - they all roar through the station at high speed without showing the slightest inclination to slow down, in which case I agree with mfcooper and Steamer.

Even specifying a stop period, e.g., a 12:30 d 12/34, if the train arrived before 12:30 or any time up to 12:34 it was not held at the signal until 12:34, it simply continued and passed through. Thus I can't see any value in writing it like this. I would have thought that if a train is going to pass, then writing it a --:-- d 12/34 or a 12/34 d 12/34 would be the way to go. So there's still doubt in my mind as to what writing a colon format in the Arr column followed by a slash format in the Dep column achieves. Are there any sims in which this results in a train being held or actually stopping for the minimum dwell period?

Also, is the duration of the "set down" period the same as that of default dwell? Ditto the "line stop".

One last question: how to work out how long a train that is scheduled to stop at a station will actually stop if it's running late? Does the Wiki specify this anywhere?

I'd be grateful to anyone who has time to take a look at my additions to the Timing Codes page and pick holes in them, or add extra comments.

Thanks.
Last edited: 20/02/2012 at 06:37 by maxand
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Re: Please explain timetable format 20/02/2012 at 06:42 #29709
Lardybiker
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771 posts 		" said:

One last question: how to work out how long a train that is scheduled to stop at a station will actually stop if it's running late? Does the Wiki specify this anywhere?
It has it's own parameter in the sim data so its separate from the normal dwell time. Like the normal dwell time, it's set by the developer for each location and varies not only sim to sim, but also location to location in the same sim. However, the default time if one is not set is 25 seconds as apposed to 35 seconds for normal dwell time.
Last edited: 20/02/2012 at 06:46 by Lardybiker
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Re: Please explain timetable format 20/02/2012 at 07:54 #29711
maxand
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1637 posts 		Thanks. So I guess this parameter can't be found anywhere in the TT Editor or in Sim options, maybe only in the manual if the writer included it?

What happens when a train normally arrives, say, 12:30 and departs 12:40 but happens to be running late and arrives at, say 12:50? Does it depart 01:00 or is the platform time shortened? Been meaning to ask this a long time!
Last edited: 20/02/2012 at 08:26 by maxand
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