Upcoming Games


Full list
Add a game

Upcoming Events

We are not planning any more in-person events until the COVID-19 situation has improved.

Reversing at Heywood Road Junction

You are here: Home > Forum > Simulations > Released > Westbury > Reversing at Heywood Road Junction

Page 1 of 1

Reversing at Heywood Road Junction 22/04/2012 at 17:45 #31717
WesternChampion
Avatar
161 posts
I have a TC failure blocking the entry to Westbury from Fairwood Junction so wish to divert Weymouth to Bristol trains via Heywood Road Junction and reverse. I tried editing the timetable to run via Heywood East (reverse) but was told there was no path from there to Heywood Road Junction. The TT editor did however accept Heywood Road Junction as an intermediate point between Fairwood Jn and Westbury. When I ran the train this way, it stopped short of the junction and started running back towards Fairwood bang road. For now I'm going to manually reverse the train and hope it passes the junction this time before reversing again and running into Westbury from the East.

I would like to reverse at Signal 732. Is there a correct location sequence for the TT editor that someone could provide me with?

Thanks

Chris

Log in to reply
Re: Reversing at Heywood Road Junction 22/04/2012 at 17:54 #31718
postal
Avatar
4374 posts
As it is a temporary fault, you could just abandon the TT and then signal round the avoider and manually reverse at 732. Once the train is into Westbury you can then pick up the TT again. Of course, if you are watching something else the train could be in Newbury before you realise so you could then use the Incident Control Panel (f11) to occupy TC TUW91 which would set the auto signal UW93 to red and avoid that unfortunate detour for the passengers. Occupying the TC is not necessarily true to life, but in real life the driver would be instructed as to the reverse and would be expected to stop.

On that score, in real life would a passenger-carrying train be allowed to reverse and use 732 as a running signal?

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
Last edited: 22/04/2012 at 17:59 by postal
Log in to reply
Re: Reversing at Heywood Road Junction 22/04/2012 at 18:06 #31719
AndyG
Avatar
1778 posts
Try this sequence (seems to validate and run as expected):
{Fairwood Rd Jn/Westbury}
Heywood Rd Jn (signal 415)
Heywood Rd Jn East rev (signal 732)
Westbury

This is because the location 'Heywood Jn' is/are at the last signal before the junction, when reversing at Hwd Jn the train is actually at Heywood Jn as if it was at signal 94 already and therefore doesn't need Heywood Jn as the location as it departs. It does require to pass that location from East Loop Jn/Fairwood Jn at signal 315/415

I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either.
Log in to reply
The following user said thank you: WesternChampion
Re: Reversing at Heywood Road Junction 22/04/2012 at 20:09 #31722
headshot119
Avatar
3784 posts
Online
" said:
As it is a temporary fault, you could just abandon the TT and then signal round the avoider and manually reverse at 732. Once the train is into Westbury you can then pick up the TT again. Of course, if you are watching something else the train could be in Newbury before you realise so you could then use the Incident Control Panel (f11) to occupy TC TUW91 which would set the auto signal UW93 to red and avoid that unfortunate detour for the passengers. Occupying the TC is not necessarily true to life, but in real life the driver would be instructed as to the reverse and would be expected to stop.

On that score, in real life would a passenger-carrying train be allowed to reverse and use 732 as a running signal?
Module TW7

"As the last track dropped, and the route became free, came the cry BROMLEY " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
Log in to reply
Re: Reversing at Heywood Road Junction 22/04/2012 at 21:57 #31727
postal
Avatar
4374 posts
" said:
Module TW7
Not sure that is the one because 1.1 of TW7 states: "A wrong-direction movement for which no signal is provided may
be authorised only in the following circumstances" whereas we have 732 controlling this movement. However, reading the small print I think Module S2 seems to cover things, as per



Post has attachments. Log in to view them.
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
Last edited: 22/04/2012 at 22:07 by postal
Log in to reply
Re: Reversing at Heywood Road Junction 23/04/2012 at 00:00 #31730
JamesN
Avatar
1276 posts
So we're saying the route is effectively locked for the up avoider at 103?

Then unless the train was trapped between Clink Road and Fairwood then the reversal at 732 wouldn't happen. Reverses off shunts in passenger service don't happen unless it's for trapped trains, or other such exceptionally mitigating circumstances - certainly not for diversions (however temporary) - Control would turn trains at Frome and Westbury until the through service could be recovered, perhaps shunting units at Frome as necessary to keep the platform clear, alternative road transport between Westbury and Frome, perhaps ticket acceptance via Salisbury and Yeovil, depending on the presumed duration and nature of the failure.

S2 3.1 doesn't apply I'm afraid postal, because the signalled route from 732 isn't on to a permissive platform line, it's to 296 signal. S2 3.1 might cover you for reversals in passenger service at 707, 709 and 715 however.

TW7 doesn't apply at all in these circumstaces

Log in to reply
Re: Reversing at Heywood Road Junction 23/04/2012 at 06:08 #31732
guidomcc
Avatar
246 posts
Quick question about this -
If you had a TCF locking up platforms at Euston, and all permitted routes out of some platforms were blocked, would you:
a) PSAD main signal to main signal, where a via button route does not exist
b) send the train through the Backing Out Roads - Departure Line - Camden South Jn
Thanks

Last edited: 23/04/2012 at 06:08 by guidomcc
Log in to reply
Re: Reversing at Heywood Road Junction 23/04/2012 at 06:46 #31733
WesternChampion
Avatar
161 posts
" said:
So we're saying the route is effectively locked for the up avoider at 103?
The TCF occurred when signalling a move from P3 at Westbury towards Wilton Junction, so blocking all moves through Westbury Station except by allowing PSAD from P3 towards Wilton Junction (in that direction only). It was still possible to signal up freights into the Up Reception line at Westbury but this would would be no good for passenger trains because (a) no platform and (b) line not authorised for passenger use.

On the assumption that a passenger train had already left Frome, would the correct procedure be to hold the train west of Westbury until the TCF was fixed or to allow it to use the goods line at Westbury to continue its journey?

Log in to reply
Re: Reversing at Heywood Road Junction 23/04/2012 at 07:34 #31734
postal
Avatar
4374 posts
" said:
S2 3.1 doesn't apply I'm afraid postal, because the signalled route from 732 isn't on to a permissive platform line, it's to 296 signal. S2 3.1 might cover you for reversals in passenger service at 707, 709 and 715 however.
One for the lawyers there, because I took the operative words as meaning that you could not pass one of the nominated signal types even if showing a proceed aspect unless you had been instructed to do so by the signaller or by another person acting on the signaller's instructions; this would allow movement after a phone call to the box. The bit about a permissive platform line is in another paragraph and not connected to the initial part of the clause. Does the Rule Book need clarification or does the real railway operate in a more stringent manner than the Rule Book proscribes?

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
Log in to reply
Re: Reversing at Heywood Road Junction 23/04/2012 at 08:02 #31735
jc92
Avatar
3099 posts
Online
" said:
" said:
S2 3.1 doesn't apply I'm afraid postal, because the signalled route from 732 isn't on to a permissive platform line, it's to 296 signal. S2 3.1 might cover you for reversals in passenger service at 707, 709 and 715 however.
One for the lawyers there, because I took the operative words as meaning that you could not pass one of the nominated signal types even if showing a proceed aspect unless you had been instructed to do so by the signaller or by another person acting on the signaller's instructions; this would allow movement after a phone call to the box. The bit about a permissive platform line is in another paragraph and not connected to the initial part of the clause. Does the Rule Book need clarification or does the real railway operate in a more stringent manner than the Rule Book proscribes?
S2 does apply, its a general rule which, in plain english reminds a driver not to pass a shunt signal cleared for him without contacting the signaller. this is because generally passenger trains shouldnt be signalled via shnt routes. therefore something is wrong or degraded working is in place. the driver will need to contact the signaller to get assurance the route set for him has been done correctly and purposfully and get a reason for doing so. this rule, as it says doesnt apply at call on signals as they are legitimate routes for a passenger train to be signalled over.

Log in to reply
Re: Reversing at Heywood Road Junction 23/04/2012 at 08:20 #31736
WesternChampion
Avatar
161 posts
So, If I understand this correctly, it would be a legitimate action to divert via a reversal at Heywood Road Jn, but the driver should phone in at Signal 732 to obtain authority to proceed.
Log in to reply
Re: Reversing at Heywood Road Junction 23/04/2012 at 08:32 #31737
kbarber
Avatar
1510 posts
I suspect what's being missed is that the signalman also has instructions relating to what movements may & may not be allowed, which limit the authority (s)he can give to the driver. Long long time since I was passed in R&R and they've changed an awful lot since then, but in my day there was a General Appendix instruction relating to reversing of trains through crossovers which detailed the circumstances under which it could be done and, more by implication than direct instruction, thereby prohibited its being done otherwise. Exceptions would be likely to exist in signalbox special instructions, allowing otherwise prohibited moves, and in some cases there would be specific prohibitions too (most instructions allow of a degree of interpretation and the powers that be might want to ensure that didn't happen in certain cases).

Not that I ever got to use the GA authority in anger, though I made sure I knew the reference & kept it up my sleeve just in case...

Log in to reply
The following user said thank you: postal
Re: Reversing at Heywood Road Junction 23/04/2012 at 08:39 #31738
AndyG
Avatar
1778 posts
" said:
So, If I understand this correctly, it would be a legitimate action to divert via a reversal at Heywood Road Jn, but the driver should phone in at Signal 732 to obtain authority to proceed.
To replicate this in SimSig, don't set the route from 732 until the driver calls in at red.

I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either.
Log in to reply
Re: Reversing at Heywood Road Junction 23/04/2012 at 08:41 #31739
WesternChampion
Avatar
161 posts
Thanks to all for the replies.

As I understand it, the restriction on the reversal at Signal 732 would only apply to passenger trains. So one option would be to detrain the pax at Frome, send the dmu ECS to Westbury, put the passengers on a bus to Westbury where they get back on the same train to continue their journey :silly:

Isn't this the sort of thing that gives the railways a bad name with their customers?

Log in to reply
The following user said thank you: guidomcc
Re: Reversing at Heywood Road Junction 23/04/2012 at 13:22 #31742
headshot119
Avatar
3784 posts
Online
" said:
" said:
Module TW7
Not sure that is the one because 1.1 of TW7 states: "A wrong-direction movement for which no signal is provided may
be authorised only in the following circumstances" whereas we have 732 controlling this movement. However, reading the small print I think Module S2 seems to cover things, as per


Sorry I got the two mixed up. TW7 is for when no signal is provided.

"As the last track dropped, and the route became free, came the cry BROMLEY " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
Log in to reply