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1979-1980 timetable 04/10/2017 at 00:29 #102030
P*Funk
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So I'm coming back to this thread to propose a completely different kind of question, namely the problem of efficiently navigating the traffic of the timetable with more foresight than just reacting to whats spawning in real time. Basically I'm asking whats a realistic manner to organize yourself for this kind of intense station based timetable and how would the real guys have been prepared for this? I understand the concept of the simplifier but there surely would have been far more prep work done by these guys to handle the flow.

What kind of organization or material would you have on hand for this and what beyond simply repetitious familiarity with the proceedings would make you better at dealing with it? There's also the point that there are many movements that don't appear on the simplifier because they lack a booked time and run as necessary to complete the timed movements. Do you experts here do anything more than just do the TT enough times to know what to expect? My own process has started to become pausing every few hours to go through the simplifier, find the major station moves and stick up a manifest of every headcode involved so I can refer to it and sort of be ready for it.

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1979-1980 timetable 04/10/2017 at 09:01 #102033
kbarber
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P*Funk in post 102030 said:
So I'm coming back to this thread to propose a completely different kind of question, namely the problem of efficiently navigating the traffic of the timetable with more foresight than just reacting to whats spawning in real time. Basically I'm asking whats a realistic manner to organize yourself for this kind of intense station based timetable and how would the real guys have been prepared for this? I understand the concept of the simplifier but there surely would have been far more prep work done by these guys to handle the flow.

What kind of organization or material would you have on hand for this and what beyond simply repetitious familiarity with the proceedings would make you better at dealing with it? There's also the point that there are many movements that don't appear on the simplifier because they lack a booked time and run as necessary to complete the timed movements. Do you experts here do anything more than just do the TT enough times to know what to expect? My own process has started to become pausing every few hours to go through the simplifier, find the major station moves and stick up a manifest of every headcode involved so I can refer to it and sort of be ready for it.
I think 'repetitious familiarity' is the main tool signalmen make use of in anything more than the smallest boxes.

First is learning the frame or panel. What levers do what (if you're on a frame) and what the locking is. On a panel, what moves are available, what locks what (mainly it's pretty obvious but many places have the odd quirk that simply has to be learned). That phase also includes things like learning the approach locking (what's comprehensive - ie a route that will drop out, if there's no train near enough to be affected, as soon as you pull up - and what isn't - which means you're locked in to the timer as soon as the signal clears - and how long the timeout is in each case). And how signals are grouped for lamp failure alarms and such. Nowadays, with fewer & fewer small mechanical boxes around, that will also include learning some pretty basic principles of signalling.

There's a sort of intermediate stage of learning the layout - loop & platform lengths, how to route trains for the various destinations (another favourite area for quirks, with sometimes an apparently obvious route unavailable and needing a different approach) and what local preferences are for platforming or looping trains.

Then there's the traffic. I don't know if it's still the case, but in my day the expectation was that we'd know the routing (including alternatives, where appliccable) for every regular traffic without having to refer to any kind of documentation. That certainly comes as a result of repetitious familiarity and very little else.

Beyond that it would be a case of reading special traffic notices to be aware what was running and where/when it should go. And - just to be helpful - there could be 2 or 3 different STNs valid at the same time, with extra/amended traffic in one not appearing in another. Not to mention the last-minute notices that gave details for just one train. Nor the even-more-last-minute arrangements made by Control on the day and (usually) telephoned out to boxes concerned.

Some larger powerboxes used to have 'daily orders' prepared by a clerk in the Area Manager's Office (that dates me, doesn't it?) giving details of everything that was booked to be happening on a train-by-train basis.

But of course no plan survives contact with the enemy so, with all that learning and familiarity, there was invariably a good deal of reacting to real-time spawning, either at the behest of the signalbox supervisor (AKA Regulator) or simply by the signalman replanning the whole thing in his head as he went along, always using the foresight of good box knowledge to work in a way that would avoid further problems even if he couldn't do much to improve the situation within his own area of control. (And, of course, communicating the meanwhile with platform and yard staff, shunters, traincrew depots and the Control, either in person or through one of the 'back row' staff who was there specifically to do the telephone work.)

Last edited: 04/10/2017 at 09:03 by kbarber
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1979-1980 timetable 04/10/2017 at 12:59 #102040
P*Funk
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Very informative, thank you.
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1979-1980 timetable 22/09/2018 at 21:42 #112277
Phil-jmw
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I don't know if this is a sim issue or a timetable issue so apologies in advance if I've posted in the wrong thread.

I'm running the 1979-80 TT with Tuesday selected, and on a couple of occasions now I've found myself needing to change the reversal locations for locos running round their trains in Carlisle station. I've gone into the train list and changed which GPL signals to reverse behind, but then find the loco's didn't reverse at the new location, instead continuing on to the next red signal.

I can't recall which loco it happened with first, but having just replatformed 1M56 (1956 arr from Glasgow) from Pfm.1 to Pfm.3 because 1 was occupied, I amended the reversing locations of 0M56 from CE294 & 333 to 291 & 335. 0M56 didn't stop and reverse at 291, he continued on towards Upperby Jn, where I am now waiting for him to reverse back from.

Edit - 0M56 did reverse correctly at CE335, but I think this was because I went in and edited its TT to show CE335 as next location as it was passing through Carlisle stn, Pfm.4.

Last edited: 22/09/2018 at 21:55 by Phil-jmw
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1979-1980 timetable 22/09/2018 at 22:06 #112280
postal
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Phil-jmw in post 112277 said:
I don't know if this is a sim issue or a timetable issue so apologies in advance if I've posted in the wrong thread.

I'm running the 1979-80 TT with Tuesday selected, and on a couple of occasions now I've found myself needing to change the reversal locations for locos running round their trains in Carlisle station. I've gone into the train list and changed which GPL signals to reverse behind, but then find the loco's didn't reverse at the new location, instead continuing on to the next red signal.

I can't recall which loco it happened with first, but having just replatformed 1M56 (1956 arr from Glasgow) from Pfm.1 to Pfm.3 because 1 was occupied, I amended the reversing locations of 0M56 from CE294 & 333 to 291 & 335. 0M56 didn't stop and reverse at 291, he continued on towards Upperby Jn, where I am now waiting for him to reverse back from.

Edit - 0M56 did reverse correctly at CE335, but I think this was because I went in and edited its TT to show CE335 as next location as it was passing through Carlisle stn, Pfm.4.
At the N End the reversing locations on the Up and Down Main are interchangeable. At the S End there are effectively 2 sets of locations, an inner set and an outer set. I can't remember the exact details off the top of my head but IIRC CE294 and CE295 act as an inner set while the Neck and CE291 act as an outer set. If you send a loco to a location in the wrong set it doesn't reverse. You have to amend the TT through F2 if you want the new reversing point to work correctly.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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1979-1980 timetable 23/09/2018 at 00:40 #112283
Phil-jmw
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postal in post 112280 said:
Phil-jmw in post 112277 said:
I don't know if this is a sim issue or a timetable issue so apologies in advance if I've posted in the wrong thread.

I'm running the 1979-80 TT with Tuesday selected, and on a couple of occasions now I've found myself needing to change the reversal locations for locos running round their trains in Carlisle station. I've gone into the train list and changed which GPL signals to reverse behind, but then find the loco's didn't reverse at the new location, instead continuing on to the next red signal.

I can't recall which loco it happened with first, but having just replatformed 1M56 (1956 arr from Glasgow) from Pfm.1 to Pfm.3 because 1 was occupied, I amended the reversing locations of 0M56 from CE294 & 333 to 291 & 335. 0M56 didn't stop and reverse at 291, he continued on towards Upperby Jn, where I am now waiting for him to reverse back from.

Edit - 0M56 did reverse correctly at CE335, but I think this was because I went in and edited its TT to show CE335 as next location as it was passing through Carlisle stn, Pfm.4.
At the N End the reversing locations on the Up and Down Main are interchangeable. At the S End there are effectively 2 sets of locations, an inner set and an outer set. I can't remember the exact details off the top of my head but IIRC CE294 and CE295 act as an inner set while the Neck and CE291 act as an outer set. If you send a loco to a location in the wrong set it doesn't reverse. You have to amend the TT through F2 if you want the new reversing point to work correctly.
I can see how that would be Postal, but I went into F2 and changed the reversal location, so surely it should have read the new location and made the reversal?

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1979-1980 timetable 01/08/2020 at 16:49 #130270
Albert
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4S53's stopping position should perhaps be a bit more to the front, it's blocking the ladder on the south side:


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1979-1980 timetable 01/08/2020 at 17:31 #130272
postal
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You will find that a number of the Freightliners do this due to the length of the trains. Prototypical as far as I am aware.
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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1979-1980 timetable 01/08/2020 at 18:15 #130273
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postal in post 130272 said:
You will find that a number of the Freightliners do this due to the length of the trains. Prototypical as far as I am aware.
It's correct along with some of the longer motorails. Best practice is to only allow them into the station when the relief crew are ready and there's not going to be any conflicting movements.

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1979-1980 timetable 01/08/2020 at 18:29 #130275
bill_gensheet
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Albert in post 130270 said:
4S53's stopping position should perhaps be a bit more to the front, it's blocking the ladder on the south side:
That means the relief crew walking up the ballast - totally unacceptable as they might spill their tea :-)
Surprised the stop is not set as opposite the tearoom, that really would be prototypical.

Bill

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1979-1980 timetable 01/08/2020 at 21:49 #130287
Albert
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Thanks for the explanation, makes sense.

(Edit: I wanted to report an issue with 1S26 here, but quickly realised it was my own mistake.)

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1979-1980 timetable 02/08/2020 at 11:09 #130293
Albert
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KMP1 is scheduled to stop at Fuel & Inspection Out until 06:15 before actually coming out. Should this be pass (and set down ticked at the reversing point?)
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1979-1980 timetable 02/08/2020 at 18:10 #130301
postal
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Albert in post 130293 said:
KMP1 is scheduled to stop at Fuel & Inspection Out until 06:15 before actually coming out. Should this be pass (and set down ticked at the reversing point?)
Not sure what the issue is here. KMP1 is due to enter at 06:15 which is also the time shown at the first location. It is a foible of the Carlisle sim/TT that most entry points also require that location as the first location in the train TT. I can't remember exactly what happens but if that time is ticked as a passing time it used to cause some sort of problem with the entry of the train - I don't know whether that is still the situation but the TT has not been changed since that problem was found and the time set as departure rather than passing. Perhaps the departure time could be checked as set down only at the Headshunt but it would not make any realistic difference to the operation of the sim. Or have I misunderstood the issue you are trying to raise?

However, please keep the reports coming as a TT as complex as the Carlisle TT which has all been manually entered is bound to contain errors no matter how much testing has been done.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
Last edited: 02/08/2020 at 18:13 by postal
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1979-1980 timetable 02/08/2020 at 20:47 #130307
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I can confirm I've used a pass time from F&I out with no issues, so if there were previously, there aren't now.
Last edited: 02/08/2020 at 21:11 by jc92
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1979-1980 timetable 02/08/2020 at 21:07 #130309
Albert
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I just see that all trains have a stop booked there. Perhaps I looked closer at KMP1's TT because of its odd headcode, or because it entered at 06:09 for me. I must have been too busy sorting out other things to notice that many locos stop before proceeding to the reversing point.

So that was my fault for not looking at other TTs, although I think jc92 has a point here. There is little point in holding an early train if it can proceed to CE474.

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1979-1980 timetable 02/08/2020 at 21:51 #130311
Albert
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1S79's arrival in Carlisle conflicts with run-round loco 0A18 reversing at CE295. 0A18 could use platform 1 instead of 3 and reverse in the neck to get around this, or could be delayed until after 1S79 has left.
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1979-1980 timetable 02/08/2020 at 23:32 #130313
postal
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Albert in post 130311 said:
1S79's arrival in Carlisle conflicts with run-round loco 0A18 reversing at CE295. 0A18 could use platform 1 instead of 3 and reverse in the neck to get around this, or could be delayed until after 1S79 has left.
As the manual says:

"There are a small number of conflicts of pathing, shunting and platforming in the TT. This is probably due to discrepancies in the exact dates for which the source documentation was valid. Users of the sim will have to work round these conflicts but there are no insuperable obstacles."

1S79 is one of the Penmanshiel diversions so was not part of the normal TT and would have to be fitted in wherever possible. The platforming details for 1S79 are taken from the hand-annotated Station Working Book which Carlisle signaller Bob Taylor used in the PSB during the diversions. While the TT has imperfections and reports of those imperfections are always worthwhile, I hope users of the TT don't forget the amount of research that Pascal (58050) did in order to create the TT.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
Last edited: 03/08/2020 at 00:28 by postal
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1979-1980 timetable 02/08/2020 at 23:32 #130314
postal
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Edit: duplicated posting - I know not why.
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
Last edited: 02/08/2020 at 23:33 by postal
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1979-1980 timetable 03/08/2020 at 00:45 #130315
Albert
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Thanks for the explanation, hadn't realised the TT contained diverted trains.

I just found that 0M34 and 9T35 want to make use of the Up Departure 1 line at Kingmoor in opposite directions at the same time.

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1979-1980 timetable 03/08/2020 at 01:35 #130316
postal
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Albert in post 130315 said:
I just found that 0M34 and 9T35 want to make use of the Up Departure 1 line at Kingmoor in opposite directions at the same time.
Again from the manual:

"In addition, there are Engineer's trip workings for ballast movements. Some are controlled from Carlisle (TRIPS 35/36/37/38/76/85/86) and some from outside the area (TRIPS 45/48/77/81/82/84).

"The documentation for many of the trip workings just gives start and finish times with no intermediate details so many of the timings have been put together on a best guess basis. That means that there may be clashes with timed trains in the timetable. In those circumstances, the signaller should make every effort to run the timed trains to schedule and then run the trip workings around the scheduled trains."

9T35 is the TD for TRIP 35 workings. You can see a listing of the schedule for that trip in the manual.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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1979-1980 timetable 03/08/2020 at 08:47 #130320
kbarber
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Might be worth adding that in 1979 - 80 things like trip workings (probably also freight trains at a location like Carlisle) wouldn't necessarily have a platform assigned. Signalmen were expected to get on with it, sorting out conflicts on the fly as they did so. All the more so when places the size of Carlisle would be likely to have a tripper that would, basically, work to the instructions of the AYM/AFA and therefore would never do the same thing two days running. (Target 3 at Willesden a particular memory in that respect.)
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1979-1980 timetable 03/08/2020 at 10:08 #130324
jc92
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When we first started testing the timetable, certain moves always ended up being done the same (whether booked that way or not!) however nowadays I always play with delays and failures on at a realistic level and I've found. Especially overnight, that it's rare for the diverts to always use the same platform as booked as they get worked around the normal service. Same with trips, ballast and regular freight too. Its "part of the job"

There are several class 6 ABS workings over Shap that I've never once got all the way to/from Carnforth without looping them and thus delaying them, however this is on the WTT planners of course.

The requirement of the signalman to regulate, work around problems and be aware of so much going on is one of my biggest attractions to this timetable and keeps it ranked No1 for me, with W Yorks 91 a close second.

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1979-1980 timetable 03/08/2020 at 11:57 #130325
Chromatix
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With that in mind, the *much* less intensive Groundhog Day TT for this sim would be a far more appropriate introduction, especially in terms of simply figuring out where everything is and how long trains take to get from A to B via C.
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1979-1980 timetable 03/08/2020 at 14:37 #130329
58050
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The actual platform allocations for this timetable were taken from the actual station working book that signalman W.J. Taylor had himself along with handwritten amendments made for the diverted ECML services in his own hand writing & you can't argue with that as he no doubt did it whilst manning the panel at Carlisle PSB. I've often wondered whether to upload it or include it in the timetable zip file as this would give users who enjoy playing this timetable advance notice of where everything should go. Would users be interested in having this document as I've already scanned the original I have so it is available in e-format?
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1979-1980 timetable 03/08/2020 at 16:04 #130331
bugsy
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Chromatix in post 130325 said:
With that in mind, the *much* less intensive Groundhog Day TT for this sim would be a far more appropriate introduction, especially in terms of simply figuring out where everything is and how long trains take to get from A to B via C.
Which one is that? None of my timetables have the word 'Groundhog in them.

Edit: Don't answer that. I found it thanks.

Your life can have a thousand different meanings or maybe just one....I'd recommend more than one in case you got it wrong - (Rezende)
Last edited: 03/08/2020 at 17:12 by bugsy
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