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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon

You are here: Home > Forum > Simulations > Timetables > Westbury > Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon

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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 29/01/2014 at 13:30 #54496
Late Turn
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696 posts 		" said:
" said:
One other thing I've noticed.

This part of the deal seems to be a throwback to the pre-loader version where TRTS would sound if the route had not been set (as far as I recall).

Would it be reasonable now to get rid of the TRTS warning unless no route has been set?
No, the TRTS will, and did in pre-loader versions, sound (and flash) if the signal is at red, even if the route is set. Look on other sims - the roundel will continue to flash while the route proves and stops flashing when the signal changes to green or yellow. If the Stopping button is selected then the crossing gates will not close until TRTS plunger is activated by driver and the signal will remain at red until the gates are closed - ergo, you get the TRTS notification.

In this case though, is the TRTS actually indicated in the box? I can't see any such indication on photos of the panel, and indeed I can't see why there's need to be one either.
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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 29/01/2014 at 15:40 #54506
sloppyjag
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480 posts 		No idea. Just my take on how the signal, buttons, crossing and TRTS are all linked.
Planotransitophobic!
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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 29/01/2014 at 16:37 #54508
Hpotter
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205 posts 		I can confirm, that TRTS is indicated on the panel at Westbury, shall have to dig out a photo when I finish work.
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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 30/01/2014 at 01:28 #54572
maxand
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1637 posts 		Late Turn wrote:
Quote:
In this case though, is the TRTS actually indicated in the box? I can't see any such indication on photos of the panel, and indeed I can't see why there's need to be one either.


I agree that a TRTS would seem unnecessary here, provided a route has been set.
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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 30/01/2014 at 01:35 #54573
headshot119
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4869 posts 		" said:
I can confirm, that TRTS is indicated on the panel at Westbury, shall have to dig out a photo when I finish work.
Is it ?




Images courtesy of Danny Sgroggins Here
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 30/01/2014 at 06:35 #54577
Peter Bennet
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5357 posts 		" said:
Late Turn wrote:
Quote:
In this case though, is the TRTS actually indicated in the box? I can't see any such indication on photos of the panel, and indeed I can't see why there's need to be one either.


I agree that a TRTS would seem unnecessary here, provided a route has been set.
But how does the person pressing the button know the route's been set and that therefore no TRTS is required?

Peter
I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 30/01/2014 at 06:58 #54578
mfcooper
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707 posts 		" said:
But how does the person pressing the button know the route's been set and that therefore no TRTS is required?

Peter
If anyone didn't know, TRTS - Train Ready to Start - is activated by platform or train staff by pushing a button on a platform, at a siding exit, etc. There is no indication to these people that a route is set from a signal - it will just be at danger to them.
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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 30/01/2014 at 07:37 #54580
maxand
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1637 posts 		Well, maybe the station staff at Bradford-on-Avon should be instructed not to bother sending out a TRTS!
Last edited: 30/01/2014 at 07:38 by maxand
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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 30/01/2014 at 07:59 #54581
JamesN
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1574 posts
Online 		The "TRTS" is what lowers the barriers if Westbury have the crossing in stopping mode. If (and I'm simplifying slightly here) the driver/guard don't operate it then they're not going anywhere as the crossing will still be raised, and signal will remain red.

As for how it's done in sim, The button on the platform at Bradford on Avon is marked TRTS, and thusly that is how it was implemented at the time in the simulation. I'll leave it to those responsible for the sim to comment on what if anything will change. I'd be inclined to leave it if it were up to me - although it appears it isn't indicated on the panel, there is ultimately a TRTS plunger at the station which does have an impact on the operation of the signalling. TRTS messages are given if the signal is red, regardless of route-setting, and the sim replicates this behaviour correctly.
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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 30/01/2014 at 11:43 #54587
Peter Bennet
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5357 posts 		" said:
" said:
But how does the person pressing the button know the route's been set and that therefore no TRTS is required?

Peter
If anyone didn't know, TRTS - Train Ready to Start - is activated by platform or train staff by pushing a button on a platform, at a siding exit, etc. There is no indication to these people that a route is set from a signal - it will just be at danger to them.
That's what I meant.

Peter
I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 30/01/2014 at 15:21 #54600
Late Turn
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696 posts 		" said:
Late Turn wrote:
Quote:
In this case though, is the TRTS actually indicated in the box? I can't see any such indication on photos of the panel, and indeed I can't see why there's need to be one either.


I agree that a TRTS would seem unnecessary here, provided a route has been set.

The TRTS is necessary (as that's what determines when the sequence starts at the AHB): it's the indication in the box that isn't. After all, there's no reason to delay setting the route (e.g. for a conflicting move) until the train is ready to depart. Provision of such an indication in the sim, though, isn't really a problem.
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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 30/01/2014 at 17:08 #54617
Stephen Fulcher
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2023 posts 		This is a bit of an unusual one.

Even though the train crew press a "Train Ready to Start" button, from an interlocking point of view this function works completely differently to a "normal" TRTS.

First of all, what happens when you press the button is different to a conventional TRTS. When you press the button on a TRTS generally it will pick up a relay, which does not even have to be a safety relay, which sticks up around the button and then goes straight to the panel without performing any interlocking functions at all - it is purely an indication to the Signalman, which will indicate up on the panel providing the signal concerned is at danger (although I have seen at least one case where it will operate whether the signal is on or off).

With the one at Bradford-on-Avon, the buttons on the platform are push-to-break, and the operation of either of these willc cause the relay to DROP. Thus if the TRTS fails the barrier sequence will start immediately. Also, the relays in this instance are all BR930 style safety relays, and have a direct effect on the interlocking, in this case on when the barrier sequence for Greenland Mill AHB starts IF W186 signal is at danger. The TRTS will operate at any time irrespective of the aspect of this signal, it will just not have any effect, whereas in a normal sense TRTS would not operate at all with the signal off.

Indicating this function back to Westbury Panel would serve no purpose, but it would waste money. To do so would require a MINIMUM of a pair of wires between Greenland Mill and Bradford-on-Avon Interlocking, a relay there, then a spare channel on the indication TDM between Bradford-on-Avon Interlocking and Westbury Panel, another relay and then the panel lamp and buzzer, plus all the associated wiring and fuses. When you consider that this would benefit nobody as there is no reason the Signalman would not have set a route from W186 to W188 anyway as there are no conflicts, and if he wanted to caution a Driver then they would have to phone up anyway.
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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 30/01/2014 at 17:29 #54625
jc92
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3629 posts 		I would liken it to a train crew operated Barrier crossing Plunger like those at Eggesford or Porthmadoc, but combined with input from the signaller, a bit like a cooperative release for the crossing and protecting signal.
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 30/01/2014 at 17:49 #54627
GeoffM
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6280 posts
Online 		" said:
Well, maybe the station staff at Bradford-on-Avon should be instructed not to bother sending out a TRTS!
In this slightly unusual situation it's actually the train staff (usually the guard but I've seen the driver do it too) who operate the TRTS. The only station staff at BoA are in the ticket office, and even that's not manned all day long, and they perform no platform duties. There are two TRTS plungers: one at the front of the train (when stopped in the usual stopping position near the signal); the other about 3-4 cars behind.

In this image the first TRTS is in the small grey box almost directly below the chimney on the right hand side of the picture; the second is out of sight behind the bridge on a small post. (They're clearly labelled so I don't see any issue pointing them out here).
SimSig Boss
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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 30/01/2014 at 17:57 #54631
Stephen Fulcher
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2023 posts 		Failing to operate it Max would result in standing at a red signal for a long time.
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