Hove yard won't accept train

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Hove yard won't accept train 25/03/2014 at 13:55 #57756
John
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northroad said:
Like the idea of the yellow stickies for Hove sidings...in fact when I add it along with all the yellow stickies that I have for each service at Brighton platforms with their departure times and those at Preston Park I have very little space to see anything else.


Sounds like a 'sticky' situation, Geoff, possibly the stickiest situation since sticky the stick-insect got stuck on a sticky bun, to quote a famous historical figure. :silly:

Seriously, though, with the advent of ever larger sims, multiple monitors are increasingly the way forward, albeit costly. Other Simsiggers have larger set-ups, but my humble three monitors allow me to see all of Birmingham New Street without the need for scrolling.


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Hove yard won't accept train 25/03/2014 at 14:03 #57757
Danny252
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" said:
Look, chum, I don't give a toss what you do as long as you spell out in the manual how to handle this, as eloquently as John did above. If you make things really clear, you won't get complaints. So go ahead and take them out in the interests of authenticity.
Why do you need a manual to understand that, when the sim phones you to say "Train 0Z00 entering at Hove Yard", a train has entered at Hove Yard? Given that a stream of pop-up messages wasn't enough information, I'm not sure what help a manual would be, given that it involves less blinking telephone icons and far more text to read through.

Last edited: 25/03/2014 at 14:07 by Danny252
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Hove yard won't accept train 25/03/2014 at 15:01 #57764
TimTamToe
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perhaps the phone calls need a vibrate alert too :whistle:
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Hove yard won't accept train 25/03/2014 at 17:08 #57775
Steamer
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maxand said:
As I said in an earlier post, I do check trains whose drivers phone in, even if there's a backlog, so I think I would have noticed this ECS unless SimSig lost it somewhere between sessions. Never mind; the solution is clear.
I've just tested it, and if you don't set the route after acknowledging the shunter, the driver will ring in complaining about being stuck at a red signal in the usual way. I'm don't know how you've missed it, but it's the only explanation.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Hove yard won't accept train 25/03/2014 at 17:20 #57778
northroad
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" said:
northroad said:
Like the idea of the yellow stickies for Hove sidings...in fact when I add it along with all the yellow stickies that I have for each service at Brighton platforms with their departure times and those at Preston Park I have very little space to see anything else.


Sounds like a 'sticky' situation, Geoff, possibly the stickiest situation since sticky the stick-insect got stuck on a sticky bun, to quote a famous historical figure. :silly:

Seriously, though, with the advent of ever larger sims, multiple monitors are increasingly the way forward, albeit costly. Other Simsiggers have larger set-ups, but my humble three monitors allow me to see all of Birmingham New Street without the need for scrolling.

Pretty impressive set up John. However when I suggested it to my wifie she said I should learn how to use the ONE that I've got before taking on anything bigger.
She further suggested that if I got three then it would be them or her that would go out of the front door never to be seen again.

I know what she means with the first suggestion and was sorely tempted to try with the second. :lol:

Geoff

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Hove yard won't accept train 25/03/2014 at 17:29 #57781
larsht
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" said:


So, why doesn't Hove Yard behave like other respectable sidings? Is it so poor it can't afford its own TD? And more importantly, why must its shunter give me no option to defer entry of a train? Surely siding entry behaviour should be standardized between sims.
So - once again we're back at - not every place is the same in real life - you're playing a sim that mirrors real life.
Real life isn't standardized.......live with it........

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Hove yard won't accept train 25/03/2014 at 19:08 #57783
kbarber
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" said:
" said:


So, why doesn't Hove Yard behave like other respectable sidings? Is it so poor it can't afford its own TD? And more importantly, why must its shunter give me no option to defer entry of a train? Surely siding entry behaviour should be standardized between sims.
So - once again we're back at - not every place is the same in real life - you're playing a sim that mirrors real life.
Real life isn't standardized.......live with it........

Just wait until we get the Willesden sim (well, I can always dream...) 'Long shunts' at Brent South End that just draw out, sit there for a (randomly varied) while blocking all traffic on the up & down carriage, the up High level Departure and the down High Level Arrival until the Brent South End chargeman finally sorts himself out, gets back in clear and remembers to ring and say he's finished.

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Hove yard won't accept train 25/03/2014 at 21:44 #57793
Airvan00
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" said:

How I wished I was back in my safe little box in Westbury.
Westbury doesn't insert TD's for trains coming out of the yard. Unless you play the perfect or beginner scenarios.

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Hove yard won't accept train 25/03/2014 at 22:48 #57805
northroad
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Oh no not Westbury again...............
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Hove yard won't accept train 26/03/2014 at 05:18 #57812
maxand
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Airvan00 said:
Quote:
Westbury doesn't insert TD's for trains coming out of the yard. Unless you play the perfect or beginner scenarios.
I've been playing beginner level so far. Didn't realize that this option is unavailable at higher levels. Confusing, see? Thanks for mentioning that.

Danny252 said:
Quote:
Why do you need a manual to understand that, when the sim phones you to say "Train 0Z00 entering at Hove Yard", a train has entered at Hove Yard? Given that a stream of pop-up messages wasn't enough information, I'm not sure what help a manual would be, given that it involves less blinking telephone icons and far more text to read through.
You sound like a person who doesn't much like reading manuals. I'm different. Have you any idea how little information that phone call really contains? It says nothing about what if anything might be done to defer entry, nothing about whether to expect a TD berth to appear, nothing about how to handle anything that might go wrong. This is what manuals are for.

In post #23 I mentioned I could not get the Simplifier to work properly for Hove Yard and uploaded a screenshot. Has anyone thought of a reason for this and a solution? Thanks in advance.

Last edited: 26/03/2014 at 05:24 by maxand
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Hove yard won't accept train 26/03/2014 at 08:54 #57819
jc92
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" said:

In post #23 I mentioned I could not get the Simplifier to work properly for Hove Yard and uploaded a screenshot. Has anyone thought of a reason for this and a solution? Thanks in advance.
It won't show entering trains as Hove Yard is an entry point, not a timetable location, however it should show trains which enter the yard.

Carlisle is an exeption to this as most entry points have a duplicated timetable location as well.

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Hove yard won't accept train 26/03/2014 at 16:59 #57833
Steamer
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" said:
" said:

In post #23 I mentioned I could not get the Simplifier to work properly for Hove Yard and uploaded a screenshot. Has anyone thought of a reason for this and a solution? Thanks in advance.
It won't show entering trains as Hove Yard is an entry point, not a timetable location, however it should show trains which enter the yard.

Carlisle is an exeption to this as most entry points have a duplicated timetable location as well.
As a work around, open F4> Timetables tab and sort the list by entry location.

Is there any way the Simplifier can be changed to include trains entering the simulation at the location?

EDIT TO ADD:

Quote:
It says nothing about what if anything might be done to defer entry
Deferred entry is not an option. Some entry points provide responses other than "OK" to allow you to defer entry.

Quote:
nothing about whether to expect a TD berth to appear
I've added a quick note to the Train Describer section of the Brighton manual, stating that TD berths are not provided at siding entry points, with the exception of Lovers Walk.

Quote:
nothing about how to handle anything that might go wrong.
There's millions of possibilities for what might go wrong, usually as a result of user error. At this point, the user is required to think their way out of the problem using the resources provided.

Manuals can warn about traps that are easy to fall in to and that stop the job completely, but they can't cater for every possible scenario.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
Last edited: 26/03/2014 at 18:39 by Steamer
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Hove yard won't accept train 26/03/2014 at 21:21 #57865
Hooverman
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Max

A typical telephone conversation will go something like this.

Signaller, signaller three bridges panel 6.
Shunter, shunter hove yard.
Signaller, hello hove shunter.
Shunter, I have 5 alpha 5 7 ready to depart.
Signaller, understood, you have 5 alpha 5 7 ready to depart. Tell the driver to draw forward to tango 6 7 6 and await a change.
Shunter, ok.
Signaller, good bye.
Shunter, good bye.

While taking this call you are writing down the train discriotion on some scrap paper, then looking at the idiots guide to ecs moves at Preston Park to see when the best time to let the train out. Usually the shunter has called the train our about 15mins early. So the paper note becomes very important as its the only reminder that a train is ready to come out of the sidings and believe me they have been forgotten in real life with a nice lot of delay minutes going back to the signaller.

But thank god that thanks to the Thameslink project we now have a new TD berth on that signal (T676) since November along with ones for Brighton wall sidings and Preston Park sidings. Three Bridges ASC opened in 1983 and we had to wait until novermeber 2013 to get TD berths for those sidings.

I usually call the shunter when the train is approaching patcham tunnel or Preston park station for any trains reversing there or before letting a train depart. Any trains that are not excepted by the shunter are usually held in Preston Park up loop until they can be taken. Any trains from Brighton that run direct ie out of platforms 1,2 and 3 will wait there until they are excepted.

On only one very rare occasion late at night with a que of empties waiting to get into the sidings and the shunter not responding to either the direct landline or their mobile number, I did actually signal a train in. It only got as far as the "stop do not proceed without shunters permission" stop board which is about one coach length beyond the points and that's where it stayed for the best part of 10 minutes until a very out of breath shunter called the box with some excuse for being missing.




Sent from my iPhone.

Last edited: 26/03/2014 at 21:22 by Hooverman
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Hove yard won't accept train 27/03/2014 at 01:34 #57870
maxand
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Thanks Hooverman for that real life transcript. I must say I would prefer to see just the line "I have 5A57 ready to depart" in the telephone message, rather than the current abbreviated TT which is part of the display. This would force the user to

1) create or reopen a sticky at the siding entry point with the train's headcode, which results in a clickable link to its timetable; or
2) open the Timetable List to the train's Location List; or
3) in cases where there is only one possible route that can be set from the siding (e.g., Merehead and Whatley quarries in Westbury), to set the first segment of the route (without having to view the TT first to make sure the correct route is set) and create a TD berth at the entry signal.

I also like the professional language of the signaller's reply. Maybe this could be made an option in our reply, slightly simplified, e.g,: "understood, you have 5A57 ready to depart. Tell the driver to draw forward to signal 676 and await a change." Now that sounds authentic. No reason why headcode and signal number can't be incorporated into a reply.

Thanks Steamer for updating the Brighton manual. I note however that under Slots and Yard Permissions it says
Quote:
Lovers Walk Depot can see which trains are approaching and thus you do not need permission for trains to enter - although you do still need the slot.
There seems to be an exception to this in that there is no slot required for entering Lovers Walk Depot via West Carriage Road. I was able to set a route from 661 as depicted. Is this an oversight on the part of the developers?

Last edited: 27/03/2014 at 01:36 by maxand
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Hove yard won't accept train 27/03/2014 at 03:50 #57873
Lardybiker
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" said:
I also like the professional language of the signaller's reply. Maybe this could be made an option in our reply, slightly simplified, e.g,: "understood, you have 5A57 ready to depart. Tell the driver to draw forward to signal 676 and await a change." Now that sounds authentic. No reason why headcode and signal number can't be incorporated into a reply.
That not currently possible, at least not easily. The call in question here is part of the core code for a sim entry point and the messages are completely cookie cutter, as are the replies. The is nothing a developer can do to change the call info or the response when used like this.

Now, you might be able to do what you are suggesting using a custom phone call. I say "might" as I haven't actually tried it though it's possible in theory at least. You'd need to create the call, interlock it with the entry point and exit points and then test it under a variety of conditions to make sure it all works properly. And that's just for one entry point. That entire process would then need to be repeated for every entry point that does the same thing. That's a lot of work (bear in mind right now all that's required to do what you have now is to change a value in a drop-down box).

Obviously, the best option would be for Geoff to change the core code but even then, all other previous releases of sims would need to be updated before they'd be able to incorporate it. Not difficult, but time consuming.

The question is though would it worth all the effort for what you gain?

What I do find surprising is that you are suggesting replacing the TT data with a simpler message and then adding the signal number to the response. The call as-is contains all the information you need from the TT to intially route the train. It includes the named entry point and the first couple of locations to give you an idea where the train is going. I'd of thought that would be more than enough information. You yourself has previously commented about problems finding signals, yet you'd rather remove the descriptive TT information and replace it with a signal number? Isn't that a step backwards based on your previous comments?

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Hove yard won't accept train 27/03/2014 at 09:59 #57885
Hooverman
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Maxand

At Lovers walk depet you need a slot to enter it as you are required to move points inside the depot when setting a routes and for obvious reason the shunt panel operator there would not like the ASC setting routes while they are trying to move trains around the depot from berthing sidings, train washer, cleaning roads or the maintaintance shed. So therefor the slot gives them so control as to when the train is accepted. Also for coming out the depot there is a FREE Idication on the points to let us know that we can set a route out (if my memory serves me right the free indication is not shown in the sim for the points) the FREE indication tells us that the points are free to move while the slot acts only upon the signal.

Brighton West Car Road is owned by the ASC ie it's totally our track, so there is no need to slot ourselves, it only becomes part of lovers walk depot beyond the last track circuit.

P.S. If your finding loves walk depot confusing your going to totally hate Selhurst depot on the Croydon sim if it ever gets re-released with all the correct slotting arrangements partial route setting. lol

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Hove yard won't accept train 27/03/2014 at 10:17 #57886
kbarber
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" said:
Max

A typical telephone conversation will go something like this.

Signaller, signaller three bridges panel 6.
Shunter, shunter hove yard.
Signaller, hello hove shunter.
Shunter, I have 5 alpha 5 7 ready to depart.
Signaller, understood, you have 5 alpha 5 7 ready to depart. Tell the driver to draw forward to tango 6 7 6 and await a change.
Shunter, ok.
Signaller, good bye.
Shunter, good bye.

Well, that's how it is now.
How about this for a fictitious (but perhaps plausible) exchange between Clapham Junction A (now part of the Waterloo sim) and Clapham Yard shunter?

Signalman: "A box"
Shunter: "Hello Bobby, cars for the Belle out the Park"
Signalman: "Righto mate, let him down to the dummy. While you're on, next for you'll be the cars off the Pompey."
Shunter: "49 for him."
Signalman: "Cheers mate, got that."
Shunter: "Cheers."

" said:
While taking this call you are writing down the train discriotion on some scrap paper, then looking at the idiots guide to ecs moves

Likewise, unless you're pulling off for the offered train (ecs for the Clapham - Kensington) immediately. Except that you probably know the working so well you'd pull off for that move anyway, even if the shunter hadn't offered it.

As I say, fictitious - I never saw much of the A. But the language and the use of colloquial names ('The Belle' - the 'Kenny [Kensington] Belle', was an ironic name for the twice-daily service to Olympia, for example) was absolutely typical. Add some of the local names for locations (anything installed around the turn of the 20th century might end up being called 'The Klondyke', for example, and Cricklewood had a siding known as 'The New Found Out'and it could get a bit impenetrable.

" said:
On only one very rare occasion late at night with a que of empties waiting to get into the sidings and the shunter not responding to either the direct landline or their mobile number, I did actually signal a train in. It only got as far as the "stop do not proceed without shunters permission" stop board which is about one coach length beyond the points and that's where it stayed for the best part of 10 minutes until a very out of breath shunter called the box with some excuse for being missing.

Love it. I bet the rumours as to what he was up to circulated for weeks...

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Hove yard won't accept train 27/03/2014 at 10:38 #57887
Hooverman
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" said:


Signalman: "A box"
Shunter: "Hello Bobby, cars for the Belle out the Park"
Signalman: "Righto mate, let him down to the dummy. While you're on, next for you'll be the cars off the Pompey."
Shunter: "49 for him."
Signalman: "Cheers mate, got that."
Shunter: "

Yep I remember those days and we all understood what was going on.

Until recentlty we had a panel operator at Selhurst depot that after putting a description in their set up TD berth would ring up and his only words would be "it's dirty". Form that you had to work out that that was short for dirty dozen, twelve, tweve car coming out and the only platform at Norward Junction station that could take a 12 car train for reversing in to go south bound was and still is Platform 5. Putting that train into platform 4 (Down London Bridge Fast) would shut most of Norward Down lol.

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Hove yard won't accept train 27/03/2014 at 11:17 #57888
maxand
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kbarber wrote:
Quote:
Signalman: "A box"
Shunter: "Hello Bobby, cars for the Belle out the Park"
Signalman: "Righto mate, let him down to the dummy. While you're on, next for you'll be the cars off the Pompey."
Shunter: "49 for him."
Signalman: "Cheers mate, got that."
Shunter: "
Thanks Keith. That puts our jargon to shame. :laugh:

Hooverman wrote:
Quote:
Brighton West Car Road is owned by the ASC ie it's totally our track, so there is no need to slot ourselves, it only becomes part of lovers walk depot beyond the last track circuit.
ASC = Area Signalling Centre

Thanks for the explanation.

Last edited: 27/03/2014 at 11:23 by maxand
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Hove yard won't accept train 28/03/2014 at 13:02 #57941
Phil-jmw
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"...and Cricklewood had a siding known as 'The New Found Out'..."

.....which let you out of Cricklewood Recess Sdgs to the Cricklewood Curve IIRC

When I was at Leicester TOPS Office in the late 80's Cricklewood Recess was our furthest south location, transferred to us when St Pancras went passenger-reporting only. None of the three shunters located there could tell me why it was called the 'New Found Out'. Do you know Keith?

Regards,

Phil.

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Hove yard won't accept train 28/03/2014 at 14:03 #57947
kbarber
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" said:
"...and Cricklewood had a siding known as 'The New Found Out'..."

.....which let you out of Cricklewood Recess Sdgs to the Cricklewood Curve IIRC

When I was at Leicester TOPS Office in the late 80's Cricklewood Recess was our furthest south location, transferred to us when St Pancras went passenger-reporting only. None of the three shunters located there could tell me why it was called the 'New Found Out'. Do you know Keith?

Regards,

Phil.

Afraid not. Nor, so far as I know, did any of the signalmen at Cricklewood Junction box. The chap who mentioned it to me wasn't able to find out either, and he was the sort of person who would have a good dig around for such things.

I have an idea there was a New Found Out somewhere else as well but I can't for the life of me recall where, or where I heard about it; certainly it was a place I was even less involved with than Cricklewood but that's about all I do know.

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Hove yard won't accept train 29/03/2014 at 22:00 #58004
John
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" said:
P.S. If your finding loves walk depot confusing your going to totally hate Selhurst depot on the Croydon sim if it ever gets re-released with all the correct slotting arrangements partial route setting. lol
Out of interest, Hooverman, would you mind explaining the slotting arrangements and partial route-setting?

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Hove yard won't accept train 29/03/2014 at 23:09 #58007
Hooverman
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If you can find the thread relating to the slotting arrangements to Bescot Down Tower, they are very similar to that. Otherwise I've got lots of writing to do and will need to take some pictures to show what I'm on about :-(
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Hove yard won't accept train 29/03/2014 at 23:16 #58009
LucasLCC
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" said:
If you can find the thread relating to the slotting arrangements to Bescot Down Tower, they are very similar to that. Otherwise I've got lots of writing to do and will need to take some pictures to show what I'm on about :-(
Perhaps this link?

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Hove yard won't accept train 29/03/2014 at 23:22 #58010
Hooverman
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Yep that will be the one :-)
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