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| Shift+L-click on TD to interpose 25/03/2014 at 04:39 #57710 | |
maxand
1637 posts |
Reduce 2 clicks to just one by holding Shift key down when L-clicking on a Train Describer to bring up the Interpose window. The other method, by pressing I, then typing in the headcode, then moving the cursor over to the signal or TD and L-clicking, is OK I guess but still takes longer. Log in to reply |
| Shift+L-click on TD to interpose 25/03/2014 at 06:36 #57712 | |
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Late Turn
696 posts |
Would that be quicker than simply typing 'I' followed immediately by the headcode, then clicking on the berth or related signal without having to worry about finding the 'shift' key? I'm not convinced - sounds a bit clunky to me. At least you've not got to enter the berth number manually too  .
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| Shift+L-click on TD to interpose 25/03/2014 at 08:11 #57714 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Quote:Would that be quicker than simply typing 'I' followed immediately by the headcode, then clicking on the berth or related signal without having to worry about finding the 'shift' key?Not for me. The 'I' key is smaller than the Shift key and located in the middle of the keyboard, whereas the Shift key is much larger and located on the left side of the keyboard, where the L hand normally rests (if the user is R handed and holds the mouse with the R hand). Comparing the two, commencing with L hand on keyboard and R hand on mouse: The 'I' method: 1) Lift up L hand, move it across keyboard and press 'I' with L index finger. (Alternatively, take R hand off mouse, move it across keyboard and press I with R middle finger.) Interpose window appears. The L hand fingers remains on the home keys. 2) Type in new headcode and press Enter. Replace R hand on mouse. My suggestion: 1) Mouse over to TD then, hardly moving L hand, depress L shift key with L little finger and click TD with R hand. Interpose window appears. 2) Move R hand fingers to home keys, type in new headcode and press Enter. Replace R hand on mouse. Admittedly it depends on what you're used to doing. If you're accustomed to hitting the I key 200 times per session you could probably find it without looking. The advantage of my suggestion is that when not using a mouse, the hands are over the home keys where they belong, and the Shift key is large. Try it - Shift+L-click has no effect when the View window has focus, so you won't muck anything up. Last edited: 25/03/2014 at 08:12 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Shift+L-click on TD to interpose 25/03/2014 at 08:28 #57716 | |
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AndyG
1834 posts |
Right click on signal+left click on Interpose; Left finger pecks 4 characters; Left click on OK. Works for me, right hand never leaves mouse, no double key presses. Left hand does the minimum work of typing the 4 characters required. I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| Shift+L-click on TD to interpose 25/03/2014 at 08:51 #57718 | |
jc92
3629 posts |
" said:Not for me.:whistle: "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Shift+L-click on TD to interpose 25/03/2014 at 08:52 #57719 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
" said:Reduce 2 clicks to just one by holding Shift key down when L-clicking on a Train Describer to bring up the Interpose window.by milliseconds! Noisynoel Log in to reply |
| Shift+L-click on TD to interpose 25/03/2014 at 09:32 #57722 | |
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y10g9
895 posts |
" said:" said:Chances are when you're typing in the headcode, 1 number, 1 letter, 2 numbers, you almost certainly going to be having a hand near the i key anyway.Reduce 2 clicks to just one by holding Shift key down when L-clicking on a Train Describer to bring up the Interpose window.by milliseconds! Also you say about time saving, actually pressing 2 keys takes longer than 1. For me pressing the I is very simple because all I do is type i1a30 and then click on the signal and it will interposes 1A30 straight away. simplez Also you prob never thought about it but why I, well interpose. its actually a very quick simple shortcut, whats shift+L going to stand for? there is no L in interpose. You'll also find that on some sims Shift+L will be one of the hotkeys for centering the sim on a certain location. Last edited: 25/03/2014 at 09:33 by y10g9 Log in to reply |
| Shift+L-click on TD to interpose 25/03/2014 at 09:48 #57724 | |
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Late Turn
696 posts |
'Shift+L', if I'm not mistaken, referred to holding the 'shift' key down whilst left-clicking, not pressing the 'L' key. I've just tried both methods ('I' followed by the headcode and enter, then clicking on the signal, against shift+click on the signal, followed by the headcode and enter) albeit on an empty desktop - the former definitely feels quicker and easier. I must admit, though, I don't like the other method (right click on the signal or berth and select from the menu) as it does feel rather cumbersome. Log in to reply |
| Shift+L-click on TD to interpose 25/03/2014 at 10:22 #57725 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Quote:'Shift+L', if I'm not mistaken, referred to holding the 'shift' key down whilst left-clicking, not pressing the 'L' key.Correct. I hope I didn't create the impression that my suggestion had anything to do with the 'L' key. AndyG wrote: Quote: Right click on signal+left click on Interpose; Actually, it's Right click on signal, move mouse cursor to Interpose on menu, then left click to Interpose. Admittedly not a great distance to move the mouse when Interpose is the first item on the menu, but it's still an extra move and if you have a sticky mouse or a tendency to overshoot, it can be annoying. It'd be great to hear from anyone else who has tried out my suggestion against the other two methods and thinks it might actually be an improvement, or am I howling in the wilderness? 
Last edited: 25/03/2014 at 10:23 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Shift+L-click on TD to interpose 25/03/2014 at 10:38 #57727 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
Personally, when I use other apps which have shift-clicking or ctrl-clicking as part of their interface, I find it very awkward and unnatural. I suspect it's a brain-wiring thing: using the mouse and the keyboard to do interrelated but separate tasks (like the current interpose) is fine, but doing a coordinated mouse-and-keyboard task is a pain. 99% of the time I use the I key to interpose, incidentally, and I would definitely find shift-clicking more awkward. I find it a pain that the I key only seems to work on describer berths that are linked to a signal or an exit. In general I tend to keep my right hand on the mouse or trackpad, and my left on the return key or the number row. Log in to reply |
| Shift+L-click on TD to interpose 25/03/2014 at 10:39 #57728 | |
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AndyG
1834 posts |
" said:AndyG wrote:Easier to move the mouse a short distance than move the whole right hand from the mouse to the keyboard:- " said: My suggestion: I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Last edited: 25/03/2014 at 10:39 by AndyG Reason: typo Log in to reply |
| Shift+L-click on TD to interpose 25/03/2014 at 10:41 #57731 | |
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Late Turn
696 posts |
I really don't like using the context menus (is that the right term?) for routine signalling stuff (it's a bit of a faff, and not realistic), so your method would be a great improvement on that - but the 'I' key already offers a very similar alternative!
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| Shift+L-click on TD to interpose 25/03/2014 at 10:44 #57732 | |
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John
884 posts |
" said:Reduce 2 clicks to just one by holding Shift key down when L-clicking on a Train Describer to bring up the Interpose window.Reduce multiple clicks, keyboard wear-and-tear, energy expenditure and the general incredulity of the rest of us, by not spamming the forum with these tiresome, millisecond-saving operating efficiencies. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: DriverCurran |
| Shift+L-click on TD to interpose 25/03/2014 at 11:33 #57735 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Forest Pines wrote: Quote: Personally, when I use other apps which have shift-clicking or ctrl-clicking as part of their interface, I find it very awkward and unnatural. I suspect it's a brain-wiring thing: using the mouse and the keyboard to do interrelated but separate tasks (like the current interpose) is fine, but doing a coordinated mouse-and-keyboard task is a pain.That's a very interesting comment; it may well be a brain-wiring thing. As you can see, I'm the other way around. I learnt to touch type at an early age, also played various musical keyboards, where chords are spread across two hands. I'm not a very good keyboard player, but it's always stuck in my head that a task is often easier when one is able to share it between both hands. You're obviously different and there's no right or wrong in that. The right way is not always the Max way.  I don't like having to look at the keyboard when I type, so having to type all the headcode keys with the left hand is more annoying to me than moving my right hand to the right hand home keys (J, K, L, [semicolon]) and typing by touch. It would be interesting to discover how many other forum users here are touch typists; I suspect not many, in which case it's no more difficult to hunt and peck for the I key with the L hand as it is to hunt for and peck any other key except possibly the numbers, which are arranged in a logical sequence. y10g9 wrote: Quote: Also you say about time saving, actually pressing 2 keys takes longer than 1. For me pressing the I is very simple because all I do is type i1a30 and then click on the signal and it will interposes 1A30 straight away.Yes, I can see now where you got the L key confused with L-click. All the same, the rest of this quote is quite a good suggestion, i.e., to interpose for train 1A23, type i1A23 and press Enter. Then all you need do is move the mouse to the right signal and click. There are 2 ways of doing this. Either take the mouse hand (normally the R hand) off the mouse, type i-1-A-2-3-Enter with both hands, replace R hand on mouse, move to signal and click, or adopt Forest Pines' suggestion of pressing all keys except Enter with the L hand while keeping the R hand on the mouse, and using the mouse to click OK, then moving to the signal. I have always preferred to select the signal or TD at which to interpose before typing in the headcode, as it seems more logical to me, but again that must be how I'm hard-wired! I'm grateful to the developers for providing not one but two ways of interposing. John, you might regard me as a spammer, but I don't consider this a frivolous thread and gave a lot of thought to whether or not to post it before going ahead. I only did so because it felt so easy and natural after thinking of it that it was worth sharing with the rest of you and seeing how many others might agree a third option is worth considering. I've said enough on this topic but welcome further constructive responses. Last edited: 25/03/2014 at 11:36 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Shift+L-click on TD to interpose 25/03/2014 at 14:36 #57759 | |
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Lardybiker
771 posts |
Just out of interest, there is one aspect of this that no-one has yet considered. Its the reason why SimSig exists and that's to mimic the real thing. So, if you need to interpose a TD in a real IECC system, what options do you actually have? Log in to reply |
| Shift+L-click on TD to interpose 25/03/2014 at 15:16 #57765 | |
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JamesN
1574 posts 
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When I visited TVSC in october, there were 3 I was shown, in order of priority: 1) Let the ACI do it 2) Click Interpose, Type Headcode, Click Signal 3) Type Berth, Type Headcode, Press Interpose Key Log in to reply |
| Shift+L-click on TD to interpose 25/03/2014 at 15:22 #57766 | |
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AndyG
1834 posts |
Is there a method 2a and 2b, viz using tracker-ball and mouse to move cursor?
I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| Shift+L-click on TD to interpose 25/03/2014 at 15:29 #57767 | |
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mfcooper
707 posts |
" said:I've said enough on this topic but welcome further constructive responses.Which heavily implies that you don't want any responses that disagree with you! People of this forum have their own opinions, as you certainly do. If you were not allowed to express yours, then you would be livid. This isn't the first time you have made a statement like the quote above and it can definitely be taken in the way that I have understood it. Increasingly I am of the opinion that you do this on purpose. That you want the series of angry responses. That you like annoying as many people as possible. You have done this in many threads over the last few years, and even if this has happened, you seem to have ignored it and moved on. The occassional "Sorry, didn't mean to offend" or similar might actually have diffused the situation more often than not. (By the way, this is like the behaviour of an internet "Troll", and I am feeding the "Troll". Perhaps. I am hoping you aren't, but I honestly cannot tell!) Now I believe you are at the stage where many people will actively form the opposite opinion to yours, resulting in any suggestions you make being shouted down. Personally, I haven't agreed with your more recent comments, but in the past you have had one or two interesting ideas. So yes, let the ideas keep coming, but perhaps you just need to practice using SimSig a bit more to overcome the "problems" you are having. The more you practice, the quicker you can operate a sim, and the more comfortable you will become with the tasks required of you in each simulation. That is what all of us here have had to do, and is what real signallers have to do! We don't have the option to say "I need the way this panel/workstation works changed" for every little "problem" we encounter. Over 99% of the time it is because we are not used to the equipment, and perhaps less than 1% of the time there *might* be a problem. And that's only when something changes (ie: resignalling). My recommendation to you is to keep practicing. Get used to the way in which the UK signalling systems work. Get used the the local differences that are born out of different regional practises and different signalling designers. Get used to the unique situations that occur in each area. And after that, then come back with questions about "Is this meant to work that way?", rather than "I think this is wrong - change it!". Log in to reply The following users said thank you: DriverCurran, sloppyjag, maxand, John, andyb0607, Steamer, larsht, Temple Meads, MikeW, BarryM |
| Shift+L-click on TD to interpose 25/03/2014 at 15:31 #57768 | |
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JamesN
1574 posts
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" said:Is there a method 2a and 2b, viz using tracker-ball and mouse to move cursor?They were the explicit 3 I was shown - as there is a requirement for all functions to be possible on the keyboard alone then there's probably a combination of the more exotic keyboard functions that I wasn't shown, but I can't speak with any authority on how they work. Log in to reply |
| Shift+L-click on TD to interpose 25/03/2014 at 15:33 #57769 | |
GeoffM
6282 posts
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" said:When I visited TVSC in october, there were 3 I was shown, in order of priority:FIFY ;) Also the rapid address berths which save two keypresses (shh!). I can't recall the key used but something like: 4) [DRB] A 1A01 [INT] where A is a defined berth ID (I think A to Z potentially allocated) and 1A01 the headcode. SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following users said thank you: JamesN, DriverCurran |
| Shift+L-click on TD to interpose 25/03/2014 at 16:32 #57770 | |
postal
5190 posts |
I think there may be a key point which has been missed in all of this debate It suits my way of working to run a sim with the f2 and f4 screens minimised in one corner so I can quickly access them if I need to find any information but they are not nagging me all the time and not occupying valuable real estate. I have the message box trimmed back so no more than 3 lines of information show and I only have the main view of the sim open (no overview, no other views in odd corners focussing on LCs or whatever). I find that is more than enough information and enables me to concentrate on running the sim, putting a sticky over an entry point if there is a train there I need to remember etc, If anyone is running with more information than is necessary if front of them, perhaps they are starting to suffer from information overload and losing the ability to concentrate on running trains because their brain is so busy processing all of the information in front of it whether relevant, timely and necessary or not. Maybe Max could advise from his professional knowledge about best practice in terms of the amount of information the user is expected to handle. If there is indeed a problem in this area, perhaps it would be more advisable for the user to find strategies to control the amount of information that needs to be processed rather than looking for way after way to take fractions of seconds out of the operational end of things. PS Hope this counts as a constructive response! “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 25/03/2014 at 16:33 by postal Log in to reply The following users said thank you: TimTamToe, maxand, John, AndyG |
| Shift+L-click on TD to interpose 25/03/2014 at 16:46 #57771 | |
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John
884 posts |
Quite right, Postal, finding ones own method of coping with the workload is important. What works for me may not suit others, so it is up to the individual which combination of tools Simsig provides to use, be it F2, F4, simplifiers, stickies, reminder appliances, or even a bit of scrap paper.
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| Shift+L-click on TD to interpose 25/03/2014 at 16:51 #57772 | |
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AndyG
1834 posts |
I usually work off a 15" laptop screen, which I find adequate for most simulations, especially in mplay with less information to process and act on. Even when testing solo a 4 panel simulation at 3x speed is manageable, just need to discipline oneself in rotating around the area and deciding priorities (differentiate between important and urgent - do IMPORTANT first!). Also mentally plan ahead as to which routes will need setting, but don't set too far ahead until actually needed, keeping your options open. I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| Shift+L-click on TD to interpose 25/03/2014 at 16:57 #57774 | |
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TimTamToe
654 posts |
And whichever way we do it, the more we do it, the quicker and better we get at it!
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| Shift+L-click on TD to interpose 26/03/2014 at 07:27 #57815 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
postal wrote: Quote: Maybe Max could advise from his professional knowledge about best practice in terms of the amount of information the user is expected to handle.Thank you. I don't consider myself an expert in information overload but I am always interested in how others here (and elsewhere) cope with today's information interface. Let's begin by turning this question on its head. Instead of asking how best to cope with all the information presented to us, we should maybe ask why should we need to deal with it at all? For example, when a driver phones in, if we already knew exactly where his signal is located, we wouldn't have to look up the Train List for the last location, look up the signal map to identify the signal, etc. If all we had to do was click his message and be taken straight to his train on the panel, that would enable us to make an instant decision. The amount of information a user is expected to handle is directly proportional to its ease of access; if accessibility is streamlined, the user can deal with a lot more information at once. Once the amount of information before you becomes too great to assimilate at a glance, you either need to reduce the amount, i.e. confine your view to just the key areas and exclude everything else, or employ visual scanning to cover the whole area in stages. The pilots among you will have been taught to scan their instruments using the same systematic pattern to ensure nothing is missed for more than a brief period. Similarly, those playing SimSig on a single screen must scroll or jump back and forth on wide sims. Those playing on multiple screens will have developed the ability to scan from one screen to another. Scanning is actually better than fixating on a single screen as it exercises the eyeball muscles as well as accommodation (focusing). Staring at a small screen is not good. Important to learn to breathe deeply and relax when scanning; practice scanning slowly at first, to avoid stress. The way in which objects relate visually to each other is very important, so it's not surprising that too many stickies can become intrusive after a while as they crowd out the blank space. The Japanese place as much importance on empty space in their art as they do on "occupied" (informative) space. Any professional shop window dresser will tell you the same. It's important to be selective about creating stickies so your panel doesn't resemble a crowded shop window. SimSig is more than an interesting game; it's a dynamic flow chart, similar to that of a factory, an electricity network or a nuclear power station, involving its users in the decision-making process. How do I deal with information overload in SimSig? (I play single-screen on a HP Pavilion DV7 notebook with a resolution of 1920 x 1080; nice in many ways, but not without its own problems.) Very similar to what postal wrote, playing single-screen. The only other windows I have open beside the panel are the F2 (Train List), Show Timetable, Messages and Overview. I haven't got enough screen real estate to open the Timetable List or the Simplifier windows, though I might open the TT List if things get boringly slow to see when the next train is due. I make the Train List window narrower so Power and Description are obscured (how often do you need them, really?) and lament the fact that I cannot toggle it off by pressing F2 again but need to use the mouse to minimize or close it. I sort the Train List by Status or Location to find a train, given only its signal number, which is the greatest time-waster in SimSig, no matter how "realistic" this is supposed to be (or is a phone call from a driver really a bit of gamesmanship to see whether the signaller has learnt the route?). I also regret that I cannot select which columns to display, and that the driver's telephone message does not also optionally display whether the train is standing at a platform (and which platform), also its previous location. Then I would refer to the Train List far less often. (However, there IS a way around this and that is to open the Train List AND the Telephone Calls windows simultaneously, cross-referencing the Train ID from the Telephone Calls message against its Location in the Train List window, sorted by ID. A bit cumbersome, but useful as it helps me choose the most appropriate answer.) To get around this I do what some others do and create stickies with signal numbers placed close to the relevant signals, but this is far from ideal. In fact, I'm thinking seriously of creating a lookup table sorted by signal number to show the locations of the main signals where drivers phone in, for those sims I play the most, and displaying this table on a pop-up text file accessible by clicking the text editor's file on the Windows toolbar or by means of a dedicated macro. Why the sim developers don't provide a much more useful signal lookup table in addition to an inverse-color signal map beats me. If a train is going to divide, join or do anything else unorthodox I now create a sticky where it's going to do it, for two reasons. First, there's no rollback of the Show Timetable window to show me what the parent train's headcode was before it divided. I'd have to bring time to a standstill (Pause), then open the Timetable List or the Simplifier and pore over them. Second, there's simply no way to highlight and copy something on the Show Timetable window (or the corresponding Location window in the Timetable List) to the Windows clipboard, then paste it into a sticky. Why on earth should I have to retype it, with risk of typo error, when it's there right in front of me already? People tell me I should use the Simplifier to backtrack on a train's history but alas for me it seemed to work more like a Confuser when I first tried it. But this was before Loaders showed up. Maybe things have improved. There certainly seem to be a lot of clicks involved when just a simple sticky, prepared in advance, would have solved the problem. Since it's impossible to compress the Show Timetable window beyond a certain degree and its font is so large, I sometimes push most of it down offscreen and only drag it back up if the TT is particularly long. I believe an improvement to font size is in the pipeline but seriously doubt we'll ever actually be able to copy any of the text. In sims where the Overview is not so wide that it obscures Messages or so high that it blocks off part of the panel, I now find myself using it in preference to number and particularly Shift+letter markers as I can jump to any part of the sim. (It must be possible to use a similar method to find a train.) I locate the Overview window to the right of the Messages window, at the top of the screen. The more senses one employs, the less the load on any particular one. I associate sound waves with trains entering, TRTS, siding permissions granted and automatic snapshots (at 10 minute intervals). The last is to help me get out of the sim and do other things for a change. This is just a workaround; we really need a session timer so we can get out, stretch our legs and smell the roses. I'm sure that if there were a way to assign smells to driver's calls made from certain locations I'd have a special one just for siding entries. Last edited: 26/03/2014 at 08:24 by maxand Log in to reply The following users said thank you: postal, northroad |