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What is the purpose of Neasden to Neasden 'turning trips'?

You are here: Home > Forum > Simulations > Timetables > Marylebone IECC > What is the purpose of Neasden to Neasden 'turning trips'?

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What is the purpose of Neasden to Neasden 'turning trips'? 13/05/2014 at 19:33 #60444
Pinza
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I am enjoying seeing trains 'going to bed' at Aylesbury, Amersham, Rickmansworth at end of excellent version 7 TT with full LUL service turned on.

Have noticed a couple of Neasden to Neasden 'turning trips' routed to Amersham and then round 'triangle' at Watford - effectively turning the stock.

Simple question - what is the purpose/need to reverse LUL sets via these services?

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What is the purpose of Neasden to Neasden 'turning trips'? 13/05/2014 at 20:01 #60447
JamesN
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" said:
Simple question - what is the purpose/need to reverse LUL sets via these services?
Evens out wheel wear

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What is the purpose of Neasden to Neasden 'turning trips'? 13/05/2014 at 22:26 #60454
clive
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" said:

Simple question - what is the purpose/need to reverse LUL sets via these services?
Some A stock units (which were 4 cars) only had a driving cab at one end. They were coupled in pairs with the cab at opposite ends, or with double-ended units, to make 8 car trains.

If a cab-at-north unit goes for maintenance and the only spare is a cab-at-south unit, that will need to be turned round.

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What is the purpose of Neasden to Neasden 'turning trips'? 13/05/2014 at 22:26 #60455
clive
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" said:
" said:
Simple question - what is the purpose/need to reverse LUL sets via these services?
Evens out wheel wear
That's only an issue for trains running round the Circle.

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What is the purpose of Neasden to Neasden 'turning trips'? 13/05/2014 at 23:23 #60457
Pinza
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" said:
" said:

Simple question - what is the purpose/need to reverse LUL sets via these services?
Some A stock units (which were 4 cars) only had a driving cab at one end. They were coupled in pairs with the cab at opposite ends, or with double-ended units, to make 8 car trains.

If a cab-at-north unit goes for maintenance and the only spare is a cab-at-south unit, that will need to be turned round.
Thanks for that - is late and must a-bed. Could understand earlier reply about balancing wheel wear - but thought that should could only apply to inner and outer lines of Circle line. This reply makes more sense. have another question to ask on same subject but will leave that till tomorrow.

Many thanks clive and JamesN

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What is the purpose of Neasden to Neasden 'turning trips'? 14/05/2014 at 00:20 #60458
JamesN
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" said:
" said:

Simple question - what is the purpose/need to reverse LUL sets via these services?
Some A stock units (which were 4 cars) only had a driving cab at one end. They were coupled in pairs with the cab at opposite ends, or with double-ended units, to make 8 car trains.

If a cab-at-north unit goes for maintenance and the only spare is a cab-at-south unit, that will need to be turned round.
Technically, not quite correct. A Stock cars are handed - you couldn't just couple 2 souths together to make an 8 car, the non-cab ends wouldn't couple, and you'd end up with 2 souths you couldn't use. Turning trips for A Stock were normally used to either undo the reversals that occured naturally in the timetable (services booked via Watford N Curve), or to turn double-enders in order to have them the correct orientation to form an 8 car with another 4 car.

The S Stock turning trips, as featured in both the included and updated v7 Marylebone TTs aren't for cabs being at the wrong end - the units are all double ended and reversible, so turning the for this purpose would be uneccesary. Wheel wear struck me as the only sensible reason why they'd bother with it now, as operationally it really doesn't matter which way round you stick an S Stock. Perhaps metcontrol could post and shed some light as to why these still run?

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What is the purpose of Neasden to Neasden 'turning trips'? 14/05/2014 at 09:41 #60461
kaiwhara
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" said:
" said:
" said:

Simple question - what is the purpose/need to reverse LUL sets via these services?
Some A stock units (which were 4 cars) only had a driving cab at one end. They were coupled in pairs with the cab at opposite ends, or with double-ended units, to make 8 car trains.

If a cab-at-north unit goes for maintenance and the only spare is a cab-at-south unit, that will need to be turned round.
Technically, not quite correct. A Stock cars are handed - you couldn't just couple 2 souths together to make an 8 car, the non-cab ends wouldn't couple, and you'd end up with 2 souths you couldn't use. Turning trips for A Stock were normally used to either undo the reversals that occured naturally in the timetable (services booked via Watford N Curve), or to turn double-enders in order to have them the correct orientation to form an 8 car with another 4 car.

The S Stock turning trips, as featured in both the included and updated v7 Marylebone TTs aren't for cabs being at the wrong end - the units are all double ended and reversible, so turning the for this purpose would be uneccesary. Wheel wear struck me as the only sensible reason why they'd bother with it now, as operationally it really doesn't matter which way round you stick an S Stock. Perhaps metcontrol could post and shed some light as to why these still run?
To me this is the most sensible explanation, however I would imagine it would be more likely that we would see S7's doing the turning moves rather than S8's? I say this as the S7's would be far more likely to experience uneven wheel wear from Circle Line use than the S8's which pretty much always go out and back, and the Ricky - Watford ECS moves would balance them out naturally anyway.

Sorry guys, I am in the business of making people wait!
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What is the purpose of Neasden to Neasden 'turning trips'? 14/05/2014 at 09:52 #60464
maxand
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Quote:
Simple question - what is the purpose/need to reverse LUL sets via these services?

Quote:
Evens out wheel wear

That's only an issue for trains running round the Circle.
Reminds me of the story of the exhausted pigeon who lost his way flying back from Sydney and turned up in Melbourne. A vet found him little the worse for wear, though one foot was shorter than the other. The conclusion was that he'd walked the last leg with one foot in the gutter.

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What is the purpose of Neasden to Neasden 'turning trips'? 14/05/2014 at 12:40 #60469
clive
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" said:
" said:
" said:

Simple question - what is the purpose/need to reverse LUL sets via these services?
Some A stock units (which were 4 cars) only had a driving cab at one end. They were coupled in pairs with the cab at opposite ends, or with double-ended units, to make 8 car trains.

If a cab-at-north unit goes for maintenance and the only spare is a cab-at-south unit, that will need to be turned round.
Technically, not quite correct. A Stock cars are handed
Argh! Of course they were!! For some reason I thought they weren't and so that wasn't the explanation. Sorry.

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What is the purpose of Neasden to Neasden 'turning trips'? 14/05/2014 at 12:46 #60470
clive
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" said:

To me this is the most sensible explanation, however I would imagine it would be more likely that we would see S7's doing the turning moves rather than S8's? I say this as the S7's would be far more likely to experience uneven wheel wear from Circle Line use than the S8's which pretty much always go out and back, and the Ricky - Watford ECS moves would balance them out naturally anyway.
C stock didn't used to do these turning moves. Rather, one or two of the Circle workings had a reversal somewhere in them during the day. For example, at one time the last circuit of 211 on the Inner Rail went from Tower Hill to Liverpool Street via Aldgate East and reverse rather than via Aldgate. The stabling arrangements also ensured that a different set worked 211 each day. So over the week 7 sets would get turned around in service. The turning paths were only used for this when the stock workings got messed up.

I have vague memories that there used to be a New Cross Depot to Watford Triangle and back turning path, back when they use 4-car A Stock on the ELL. I'm not sure I can figure out the need.

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What is the purpose of Neasden to Neasden 'turning trips'? 14/05/2014 at 18:34 #60487
metcontrol
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The turning moves are still carried out - though not as regularly. There is still maintenance equipment which is "side" dependant (don't ask me what that equipment is!) and cannot be accessed if the train arrives in depot a certain way round.

The C-stock turning - with regard to wheel wear - was more of a myth than anything. Yes in theory if the stock was left for long period on the same Circle Line direction they could suffer wheel wear, but the varied nature of the operation of the stock meant that it was rare for any one train to be left in that way.

The turning used to occur by scheduled timetable trips which normally utilised the Aldgate/Minories Junction triangle. The most common would be for a train to start service in the morning by running Barking-Tower Hill then round the Circle to Edgware Road. Then after running "clockwise" round the circle for most of the day they then form onto another Barking service that evening. By the time the stock goes back to Barking it is turned. However, as mentioned, it was unlikely a train would remain on its correct path all day, and often trains which were meant to be turned would end up staying the same way around!

Turning C-stocks was more to ensure we didn't have too many units "facing east" and nothing "facing west."

Last edited: 14/05/2014 at 18:44 by metcontrol
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What is the purpose of Neasden to Neasden 'turning trips'? 14/05/2014 at 19:54 #60497
Pinza
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" said:
The turning moves are still carried out - though not as regularly. There is still maintenance equipment which is "side" dependant (don't ask me what that equipment is!) and cannot be accessed if the train arrives in depot a certain way round.

The C-stock turning - with regard to wheel wear - was more of a myth than anything. Yes in theory if the stock was left for long period on the same Circle Line direction they could suffer wheel wear, but the varied nature of the operation of the stock meant that it was rare for any one train to be left in that way.

The turning used to occur by scheduled timetable trips which normally utilised the Aldgate/Minories Junction triangle. The most common would be for a train to start service in the morning by running Barking-Tower Hill then round the Circle to Edgware Road. Then after running "clockwise" round the circle for most of the day they then form onto another Barking service that evening. By the time the stock goes back to Barking it is turned. However, as mentioned, it was unlikely a train would remain on its correct path all day, and often trains which were meant to be turned would end up staying the same way around!

Turning C-stocks was more to ensure we didn't have too many units "facing east" and nothing "facing west."
Many thanks for that metcontrol - seems to be the definitive answer to my 'simple' query last night.

Amused at your comment that 'off path' routing through the day was likely to re-reverse the stock - ie back to square one after 'planned' reversal!

Unsure what you mean by west or east facing units? Could you expand on that please?

Chris

PS At least these LUL turning moves take place within London - or at least the Home Counties.

Slightly off topic, but I have memories of the silly mileage involved in turning 1M44 in the mid 1980s:

1M44 was the up Glasgow to Euston TPO (Travelling Post Office) - still running under same headcode then as it was on August 8th 1963 (Great Train Robbery).

By the 1980s, the clever 'retrieval of lineside bags at speed' system was long gone, but postal carriages still had doors (indeed letterboxes) on one side only. This meant that train had to be signalled into correct platforms on the up run and turned before following nights 'down' run - I forget the headcode.

At the start of my time working in North London, the ECS came back out of Euston and reversed round the complex of lines in the Willesden area.

This seemed to cause congestion in morning peak so it then went as far north as Birmingham to turn round the Soho/Perry Barr route.

After this it was timetabled to turn on the Gresty Lane triangle at Crewe - a silly 158 miles north of Euston (from memory) - just to turn a train every day!

Last edited: 14/05/2014 at 19:56 by Pinza
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What is the purpose of Neasden to Neasden 'turning trips'? 15/05/2014 at 18:43 #60576
metcontrol
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" said:
Unsure what you mean by west or east facing units? Could you expand on that please?
The C-stock fleet consisted of 2-car units - each with only 1 driving end. When in service they ran as 6-car trains, with 3 units coupled together. The trains were not maintained as full trains, but would be split and re-coupled as required, so for example if there was a defective 2-car unit on one end, it was fairly "simple" to uncouple that in depot and replace it with another. Simple that is, until you realise you have too many units with the driving end facing the "wrong way."

The Hammersmith and City line runs in an east/west direction, hence my reference to which way round the units were facing - facing west towards Hammersmith, or east towards Barking.

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What is the purpose of Neasden to Neasden 'turning trips'? 15/05/2014 at 21:22 #60589
Danny252
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Slightly off topic, but I have memories of the silly mileage involved in turning 1M44 in the mid 1980s:

1M44 was the up Glasgow to Euston TPO (Travelling Post Office) - still running under same headcode then as it was on August 8th 1963 (Great Train Robbery).

By the 1980s, the clever 'retrieval of lineside bags at speed' system was long gone, but postal carriages still had doors (indeed letterboxes) on one side only. This meant that train had to be signalled into correct platforms on the up run and turned before following nights 'down' run - I forget the headcode.

At the start of my time working in North London, the ECS came back out of Euston and reversed round the complex of lines in the Willesden area.

This seemed to cause congestion in morning peak so it then went as far north as Birmingham to turn round the Soho/Perry Barr route.

After this it was timetabled to turn on the Gresty Lane triangle at Crewe - a silly 158 miles north of Euston (from memory) - just to turn a train every day!
Because yarding it at Willesden and turning it after the morning rush hour was too simple a solution?! Dear me...

Last edited: 15/05/2014 at 21:24 by Danny252
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What is the purpose of Neasden to Neasden 'turning trips'? 16/05/2014 at 02:23 #60595
meeko
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And I thought The Canadian had a lengthy turnaround.

It's typically 2-3 locomotives and 20+ cars, making it too long to fit in the wye at the maintenance centre.

So, coming into Toronto in the morning, it comes down the Richmond Hill line and west into Union Station. Then it runs out to the maintenance centre, about 15 km away.

In the evening, it reverses the 15 or so km back to Union Station. After loading, it heads west out of the station and about 20 km up the Bradford line to the York sub. There's no curve in the southeast quadrant, though, so it has to fly over the York sub, reverse around the northwest curve, then proceed about 10 km east to get back to the Richmond Hill line and around the northwest curve there.

It's really only a few km out of the way, though, which is a rounding error when you consider the whole route's 4,466 km!

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What is the purpose of Neasden to Neasden 'turning trips'? 16/05/2014 at 10:12 #60597
Danny252
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And I thought The Canadian had a lengthy turnaround...
Since we're on the subject, what do they do at the Vancouver end - are the wyes around Pacific Central large enough? The lengths seem to just about work out, depending on how many coaches they throw on for the summer season.

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What is the purpose of Neasden to Neasden 'turning trips'? 17/05/2014 at 00:20 #60611
meeko
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" said:
" said:
And I thought The Canadian had a lengthy turnaround...
Since we're on the subject, what do they do at the Vancouver end - are the wyes around Pacific Central large enough? The lengths seem to just about work out, depending on how many coaches they throw on for the summer season.
It involved a bit of wiggling, but they did manage to turn the train, I think in the yard just across Terminal Ave. from the station, then back around and into the platform. (http://goo.gl/maps/qnfWN) I arrived in Vancouver the Saturday before Labour Day, so probably one of the busier times. IIRC, we had 2 locomotives and about 25 coaches.

Impressively, a single F40PH-2D locomotive is apparently sufficient to pull the train, even through the mountains. The 2nd one is just backup in case the other dies en-route. You don't want to have to wait for a rescue loco when you're 1000 km from the nearest depot!

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What is the purpose of Neasden to Neasden 'turning trips'? 19/05/2014 at 12:49 #60687
Frankley Junction
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Going back a bit, the A Stock as built were not handed, it was only later refurbishment that made them so. The Met still practiced off peak uncoupling to 4 car sets up until as late as 1981, and of course that would have enabled a lot more possibilities for units to get turned in the course of normal daily diagrams.
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