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| Rescue locos (was: Technician status display) 13/06/2016 at 21:50 #83050 | |
Hugh
37 posts |
It may be going slightly off topic but would be able to call a spare/rescue loco for a train that is running on reduced power or has broken down for any reason and is delaying other trains.
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| Rescue locos (was: Technician status display) 13/06/2016 at 23:08 #83053 | |
postal
5190 posts |
" said:It may be going slightly off topic but would be able to call a spare/rescue loco for a train that is running on reduced power or has broken down for any reason and is delaying other trains.If the mods could shift these posts to a new topic we can then debate how the Decisions module can already enable that to happen. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Rescue locos (was: Technician status display) 14/06/2016 at 08:36 #83054 | |
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postal
5190 posts |
" said:It may be going slightly off topic but would be able to call a spare/rescue loco for a train that is running on reduced power or has broken down for any reason and is delaying other trains.The Decisions module now allows you to have such options if they are written into the timetable. However, each option needs to have TTs written to cover the eventualities. To show how it might work, let's take the example from the days when loco-hauled trains ran between New Street and Euston on the WCML. These trains had a loco at one end and a DVT at the other. If the DVT developed a fault, then it would be necessary to detach the loco from the front of the train on arrival at New Street and run it round to be at the new front of the train on departure. You could simulate this situation by creating a decision for DVT failure/no DVT failure and weight it appropriately (so maybe once every 10 iterations the DVT was deemed to be a failure). You then edit the TT of the arriving train to show an action to detach the loco from the front if the decision is DVT failure with another action governed by the decision to re-join the loco before the normal Next Working action is shown. You would also need to write a TT for the run-round move; this TT would not need any reference to the decision as it would only be called if the decision had caused the loco detach in the first place. Similarly you could have a situation at a dead-end like King Cross where a train arrives with a loco at the buffer stop end in front of the DVT due to previous failure and no loco at the other end. In this case you would use the same sort of decision but would then cause the decision to detach the loco at the buffer-stop end to send it off to stabling and bring a light engine onto the country end of the train for departure. You could have a Thunderbird ready for that situation. You could either have a separate decision for each train so once every 10 iterations that train suffers a failure or use a global weighted decision so that every 10th. train arriving would have the DVT failure. Given the nature of statistics, with either option you might run a whole day with no failures then have 2 or 3 consecutive trains suffering failures the next time you run through the TT. That last possibility would cause TT problems if you were relying on a Thunderbird from an in-sim stabling point rather than having it enter from an off-sim location! There is lots of flexibility in the decisions process so all sorts of situations can be replicated if the TT writer wishes to create them. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following user said thank you: whitetigger |
| Rescue locos (was: Technician status display) 14/06/2016 at 11:03 #83056 | |
DaveHarries
1267 posts |
I was just looking in the manuals for this but couldn't find anything. Is there some way that a section could be added to the SimSig manual which could include screenshots as demonstrations, for example? Dave Log in to reply |
| Rescue locos (was: Technician status display) 14/06/2016 at 13:07 #83058 | |
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postal
5190 posts |
" said:I was just looking in the manuals for this but couldn't find anything. Is there some way that a section could be added to the SimSig manual which could include screenshots as demonstrations, for example?No doubt a section could be added whenever a public spirited person who has spent their time to experiment with the decisions module to see how it works finds the hours and the will to write it all up. In essence, you create a Decision in the Decisions tab of the TT editor F4 by going to New and giving it a name. That is the sum total of the work required to create a Decision. Within the Decision you have Choices. Edit the Decision and you can create new Choices. Give each new Choice a name. That is the sum total of the work required to create a choice. You can give weight to the Choices so for a 2 Choice example if you gave one a weight of 1 and the other a weight of 10, for every 11 times the decision is called you will get 1 instance of Choice 1 and 10 instances of Choice 2. For the New Street example earlier, you might create a decision "New Street Failure" with 2 choices "DVT Failure" and "No Failure". In the TT for 1G02 arriving at New Street, you create a new Action DEF 0G02 and in the edit box for that Action, enter "New Street Failure" (without the quotes) in the Decision Box and "DVT Failure" in the Choice Box. You then need another Action J 0T02 with the same Decision and Choice and they need to be moved above N 1A03. The "No Failure" choice causes no actions in this case but is needed so that the "DVT Failure" is not automatically selected. Then when you run through the TT you will either get the train turning round and returning as expected ("No Failure"  or the loco detaching and running round ("DVT Failure").That is it all done (except for writing the TT for 0G02) - or at least that is what I have found by playing with the module to see what happens. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 14/06/2016 at 15:45 by postal Log in to reply |
| Rescue locos (was: Technician status display) 14/06/2016 at 17:14 #83063 | |
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Lardybiker
771 posts |
Not sure just using the decision module covers the OP specific question.... replacing the locomotive on a train that's running on reduced power. I agree, the decision module can be used for certain specific pre-designed circumstances such as failing a DVT and causing a run around but that doesn't help a situation if a train enters the sim on reduced power as the decision module has no control over that happening. In real life, for that failing train, someone has to make a decision to attach a new locomotive, and what happens to the original. Not only that, they also need to decide where this will take place. That is likely to be the folks in control who make these decisions and not the signalling staff. The signallers will no doubt be informed as they'll need to carry out what moves are required to deal with the issue. Then there is the question of where the rescue locomotive comes from how long it takes for it to get to the failed train. In SimSig this a difficult to deal with. First, there'd need to be a way to detect that a train was running on reduced power. The sim would then have to decide a suitable location on the trains route for it to be stopped to allow for the rescue locomotive to be attached. It may involve removing the original locomotive first (depending on where the train is at the time). The Sim would need TT's for ALL these potential moves with appropriate joins and divides as needed. In some sims, there may not even be a suitable location to do such a change. Take the aforementioned New St. sim. Passenger trains could swap failed loco's at New St or B'ham International. Freights though take all sorts of routes through different bits of the sim and don't generally pass through New St itself. Saltely or Bescot are likely places but neither of these locations are actually on the the New St Sim. You could fake it and insert a "fake" rescue locomotive, adjusting the TT of the reduced power train to allow the join of the new motive power. However, the sim would then need to know you'd give the original train new motive power to allow it to run at full speed again and I am not sure there is a way to do that. Log in to reply |
| Rescue locos (was: Technician status display) 14/06/2016 at 18:42 #83065 | |
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postal
5190 posts |
You could do all of that using Decisions but it would all have to be pre-written into the TT rather than ad hoc. For example you could have a train sometimes entering at reduced power by having 2 TTs for the train with different max. speeds, weights and acceleration rates and a decision about full power/reduced power. You would then write TTs to cover the addition of an extra loco or the switch to take the sick animal off and put a healthy beast on the front. It could well be a surprise or a new situation for the person running the sim but would still need to be pre-planned at the TT writing stage so maybe lacking the spontaneity that some would desire. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 14/06/2016 at 18:43 by postal Log in to reply |
| Rescue locos (was: Technician status display) 15/06/2016 at 00:21 #83070 | |
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Hugh
37 posts |
I've just been thinking going back to my original question that in the Gloucester sim you have the Bromsgrove banker locos which can be attached and detached from other trains so could you not introduce rescue locos to the Kings X or Euston sims that could be stabled in a siding and added to a failed HST set or similar failed train when needed?
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| Rescue locos (was: Technician status display) 15/06/2016 at 00:55 #83071 | |
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postal
5190 posts |
" said:I've just been thinking going back to my original question that in the Gloucester sim you have the Bromsgrove banker locos which can be attached and detached from other trains so could you not introduce rescue locos to the Kings X or Euston sims that could be stabled in a siding and added to a failed HST set or similar failed train when needed?Something similar to the scenario posted earlier in this thread? " Similarly you could have a situation at a dead-end like King Cross where a train arrives with a loco at the buffer stop end in front of the DVT due to previous failure and no loco at the other end. In this case you would use the same sort of decision but would then cause the decision to detach the loco at the buffer-stop end to send it off to stabling and bring a light engine onto the country end of the train for departure. You could have a Thunderbird ready for that situation." “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Rescue locos (was: Technician status display) 15/06/2016 at 08:40 #83074 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:I've just been thinking going back to my original question that in the Gloucester sim you have the Bromsgrove banker locos which can be attached and detached from other trains so could you not introduce rescue locos to the Kings X or Euston sims that could be stabled in a siding and added to a failed HST set or similar failed train when needed?I believe Geoff's point is that when Simsig declares a train to have a loss of power (rather than postal setting it via a scenario), there's currently no way for Simsig to "un-fail" that power, short of sending the train off-sim. So you can put your loco on, but the train will still have a loss of power. (At least, I think it's been said previously that "Loss of power" is preserved through join/divide) Log in to reply |
| Rescue locos (was: Technician status display) 15/06/2016 at 11:08 #83076 | |
58050
2650 posts 
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Some time back \I was dabbling with the idea of introducing loco movements on my Coventry summer 1988 timetable to replicate a loco failure subject to a train entering the area of control for Coventry whereby the train would stop at Coventry once the driver had requested assistance & the another loco would enter the sim at another entry point to join on the front & work the train away. This is something I've had alot of experience in during my time on the footplate as well as being a loco controller for over 10 years. On toda'ys railways loco controllers don't really exist anymore, but back in the days of BR & up until 2008ish there were locos controllers who allocated locos onto diagrams to work trains & if there was a failure the loco controller would arrange for an assisting loco to be dispacted to go onto the front of the failed train & then work it forward. Since privatisation charges are raised for the clrearance of the mainline & the hire of a loco to assist a train away. Clearance of the line charges were £2,000 which Network Rail would chgarge whoevers train failed & had to be rescued. The signaller would be advised by the control(Regional Control in BR days or Network Rail control today). Obviously the signaller would be advised first by the driver that assistance would be required & the signaller would have to find a suitable location where the train can be held for assistance to be attached. Loco failures would have been much more common in the days of BR compared to today's railway. This would in effect make SimSig that bit more realistic if random loco failures were able to be created easily within the timetable writing process. This is something I've had in the back of my mind for many years, but so far I haven't really put it to the test yet.
Last edited: 15/06/2016 at 11:09 by 58050 Log in to reply |
| Rescue locos (was: Technician status display) 15/06/2016 at 17:22 #83084 | |
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Lardybiker
771 posts |
" said:I believe Geoff's point is that when Simsig declares a train to have a loss of power (rather than postal setting it via a scenario), there's currently no way for Simsig to "un-fail" that power, short of sending the train off-sim. So you can put your loco on, but the train will still have a loss of power.Assuming you were referring to my post Danny252, I've been called a lot of things previously but never Geoff...But yes, that is what I was saying. It's something that the real Geoff or Clive could certainly add to the core code potentially but such a feature doesn't exist at this point. The problem with Postals suggestion with decisions is that, yes, you could do use decisions for a single train but it would only ever affect that one train. In SimSig, any train could potentially enter the sim with reduced power. Assuming you could in some way apply decisions to all trains, you'd also want some random elements too such as the train may get its rescue locomotive at different locations in a sim, the rescue locomotive could come from different places and also it could take varying amounts of time to arrive. While this may all be possible using decisions, applying it across all trains in a TT would seem to be exceedingly complicated and I imagine unbelievably time consuming to implement and thus not really practical. In addition it seems the failed trains stopping point may be designated by the signaler and thus could be pretty much anywhere in the sim. If this is thew case, I've no idea how you'd write a rescue loco's TT given the failed trains stopping point is essentially undefined! Lastly, you've then got the issue the Danny252 makes reference to that even with the rescue loco attached the train is still marked as being failed. Don;t get me wrong, I like the idea of rescuing failed trains as that's done in real system. It's just I am not sure SimSig has a way of dealing with it in manner that is any way near realistic currently. Last edited: 15/06/2016 at 17:25 by Lardybiker Log in to reply |
| Rescue locos (was: Technician status display) 15/06/2016 at 18:12 #83085 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:Assuming you were referring to my post Danny252, I've been called a lot of things previously but never Geoff...I need new glasses. Log in to reply |
| Rescue locos (was: Technician status display) 15/06/2016 at 23:16 #83088 | |
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postal
5190 posts |
" said:" said:Never said it as a panacea, just that it was theoretically possible to do any the things suggested using decisions. Whether anyone would have the intestinal fortitude to write a TT like that and then whether anyone would want to use it is a different matter altogetherI believe Geoff's point is that when Simsig declares a train to have a loss of power (rather than postal setting it via a scenario), there's currently no way for Simsig to "un-fail" that power, short of sending the train off-sim. So you can put your loco on, but the train will still have a loss of power.Assuming you were referring to my post Danny252, I've been called a lot of things previously but never Geoff...But yes, that is what I was saying. It's something that the real Geoff or Clive could certainly add to the core code potentially but such a feature doesn't exist at this point. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Rescue locos (was: Technician status display) 18/06/2016 at 01:23 #83106 | |
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bill_gensheet
1314 posts
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I usually put in one or two of these for each TT, but as stated it is always the same train / trains that need assistance and at the same places. There is a 'it is raining' decision for the next version of Motherwell 84 TT that kicks out Beattock bankers from Carstairs Bill Log in to reply |
| Rescue locos (was: Technician status display) 18/06/2016 at 10:53 #83107 | |
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58050
2650 posts
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In all the timetables I write I always look at the possibility of creating scenarios whereby a driver requests assistance in view of a fault on the loco. This is probably the one single aspect that isn't exactly realistic when running a sim. SimSig in every other sense is as realistic as it gets with the possibilities of points/signal failures & TCFs. however having random locos failures which is far more prevalent in the BR era timetables compared with the modern era scene, partly due to the wider variety of traction used & there reliability compared to what we have running on the railway today. I'm not too sure how complex the possibility would be of say when a train enters a sim with the 'loss of power' report being triggered, could the coding be adapted whereby the train could be stopped at a convenient location whereby an assisting loco can be attached ato the front or rear of the train? The sim developer could make a list of relevant locations within the sim where a loco can enter the sim such as depots, holding sdgs or even freight terminals. The signaler then receives a phone stating where the loco is required to go to to attach to the failed train & the sim creates a blank schedule for the move to that location. The timetable writer could then create a blank schedule in the timetable data for the sim to use if & when this situation occurs. Whether you'd have a separate sliding scale for train failures would be up to the sim devloper, but this would add a completely different dynamic to sims. As Bill menyions in his post regarding the Beattock bankers, they were no doubt used to assist trains that were in trouble & that wouldn't be too difficult to set up in a timetable, & once they'd been used another set of locos could enter the sim from either Carlisle or Carstairs to act as replacements for the ones used to assist a failed train. Log in to reply |