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Gloucester timetabling conundrums

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Gloucester timetabling conundrums 31/07/2016 at 09:38 #83875
WesternChampion
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I'm testing a Summer 1980 timetable for Gloucester. I have a train that has alternative destinations off sim with the same timings that I have numbered 8E46A-MTX and 8E46B-MTX. I have included a mutually exclusive rule for the two trains concerned but, on testing, they have both appeared (see screen shot). Is this a sim bug or have I done something wrong?

Thanks for any help.

Chris

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Gloucester timetabling conundrums 31/07/2016 at 09:47 #83876
WesternChampion
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Try this attachment.

Chris

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Gloucester timetabling conundrums 31/07/2016 at 11:50 #83881
postal
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Chris

It would be more helpful if you could attach the TT so that people can try and get at the underlying reason rather than just seeing a screenshot of the outcome of the reason.

"If you can find something everyone agrees on, it's wrong." - Morris King Udall (15/06/1922 – 12/12/1998), American politician.
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Gloucester timetabling conundrums 01/08/2016 at 09:43 #83890
WesternChampion
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John

I quite understand. However, I'm having difficulty in locating the .wtt file on my computer. I can see the timetable I created on the list to run when I run Simsig Gloucester but a search of the hard drive only finds the timetables supplied with the sim. Any ideas?

Chris

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Gloucester timetabling conundrums 01/08/2016 at 10:07 #83891
postal
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" said:
John

I quite understand. However, I'm having difficulty in locating the .wtt file on my computer. I can see the timetable I created on the list to run when I run Simsig Gloucester but a search of the hard drive only finds the timetables supplied with the sim. Any ideas?

Chris
If the sim is finding it, it can only be in a limited number of places. If you open the Loader and click on the Folder Options button you can see the ticked folders where SimSig will look for sims and TTs. If you drill down in those folders you should eventually be able to find the TT.

"If you can find something everyone agrees on, it's wrong." - Morris King Udall (15/06/1922 – 12/12/1998), American politician.
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Gloucester timetabling conundrums 01/08/2016 at 10:32 #83893
Finger
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" said:
" said:
John

I quite understand. However, I'm having difficulty in locating the .wtt file on my computer. I can see the timetable I created on the list to run when I run Simsig Gloucester but a search of the hard drive only finds the timetables supplied with the sim. Any ideas?

Chris
If the sim is finding it, it can only be in a limited number of places. If you open the Loader and click on the Folder Options button you can see the ticked folders where SimSig will look for sims and TTs. If you drill down in those folders you should eventually be able to find the TT.

Gloucester is not a loader sim.

Looking at it, Gloucester timetables should be in Program Files\SimSig\Gloucester. Failing that, you can use the Save As dialog to save the timetable anywhere you want after you loaded it. Or, if you can see it in the Save As dialog, you can use that dialog as an explorer window and copy the files (.wtt + .wtr) from there.

Last edited: 01/08/2016 at 10:33 by Finger
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Gloucester timetabling conundrums 01/08/2016 at 12:36 #83894
postal
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" said:
" said:
" said:
John

I quite understand. However, I'm having difficulty in locating the .wtt file on my computer. I can see the timetable I created on the list to run when I run Simsig Gloucester but a search of the hard drive only finds the timetables supplied with the sim. Any ideas?

Chris
If the sim is finding it, it can only be in a limited number of places. If you open the Loader and click on the Folder Options button you can see the ticked folders where SimSig will look for sims and TTs. If you drill down in those folders you should eventually be able to find the TT.

Gloucester is not a loader sim.

Looking at it, Gloucester timetables should be in Program Files\SimSig\Gloucester. Failing that, you can use the Save As dialog to save the timetable anywhere you want after you loaded it. Or, if you can see it in the Save As dialog, you can use that dialog as an explorer window and copy the files (.wtt + .wtr) from there.
Good thinking. Apologies for my stupidity.

"If you can find something everyone agrees on, it's wrong." - Morris King Udall (15/06/1922 – 12/12/1998), American politician.
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Gloucester timetabling conundrums 01/08/2016 at 13:47 #83895
WesternChampion
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Thanks for your help on this, chaps.

I used the Save As from within Simsig to save them onto the desktop, which worked a treat. They timetable files in the folder identified by Finger (except that its Program Files (x86) on my machine) but for some reason only the downloaded files show up in Windows Explorer, not those I created myself.

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Gloucester timetabling conundrums 01/08/2016 at 14:24 #83896
Sacro
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They'll be under %LocalAppData%\VirtualStore\Program Files (x86)\SimSig
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Gloucester timetabling conundrums 01/08/2016 at 15:18 #83897
Lardybiker
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" said:
Thanks for your help on this, chaps.

I used the Save As from within Simsig to save them onto the desktop, which worked a treat. They timetable files in the folder identified by Finger (except that its Program Files (x86) on my machine) but for some reason only the downloaded files show up in Windows Explorer, not those I created myself.
Further to Ben's note, that's a Windows "feature" to provide security to installed programs from malicious code. This was implemented in Windows several versions ago (Vista I think it was). As a result, programs can no long save data in the Program Files (x86) folder directly. This is one of the reasons why all the files for loader sims are somewhere completely different (which is what Postal was pertaining to in his post about the loader).

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Gloucester timetabling conundrums 01/08/2016 at 15:22 #83898
WesternChampion
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Thanks, Sacro

What is the reason they don't show up in a search of all files in the C drive?

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Gloucester timetabling conundrums 01/08/2016 at 15:34 #83899
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" said:
Thanks, Sacro

What is the reason they don't show up in a search of all files in the C drive?
shrug

Guess it depends how and where you're searching and what indexer settings you have.

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Gloucester timetabling conundrums 01/08/2016 at 15:55 #83900
WesternChampion
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Having done a bit of digging, the AppData folder is excluded in Indexing Options, which explains why I couldn't find the files. I don't seem to be able to change this. I'll know for next time :)

In the meantime, if anyone fancies a look at the timetable...

Last edited: 01/08/2016 at 15:56 by WesternChampion
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Gloucester timetabling conundrums 01/08/2016 at 16:36 #83903
headshot119
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" said:
Having done a bit of digging, the AppData folder is excluded in Indexing Options, which explains why I couldn't find the files. I don't seem to be able to change this. I'll know for next time :)

In the meantime, if anyone fancies a look at the timetable...
I believe if you have folders options set to display "Hidden Files & Folders" that allows the inbuilt Windows search to look through the files. I can certainly search them on all of my windows setups.

"CHECK Do you stop at Capenhurst?" - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Gloucester timetabling conundrums 01/08/2016 at 18:56 #83905
WesternChampion
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" said:
I believe if you have folders options set to display "Hidden Files & Folders" that allows the inbuilt Windows search to look through the files. I can certainly search them on all of my windows setups.
I've tried that but they still don't show up. It doesn't matter now as I know where to find them.

I'm now having trouble getting a train that's too long for Platform 2 to perform a join...

Chris

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Gloucester timetabling conundrums 03/08/2016 at 13:48 #83922
Finger
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Quote:
In the meantime, if anyone fancies a look at the timetable...
So, this is what I've got after a long time of "looking" at it:

What puzzled me the most is that I could easily reproduce the behavior (after I cranked up the probabilities to actually get the trains enter most of the time), yet when I created my own simple timetable with two trains, it all seemed to work perfectly. I thought maybe the difference was in the weekday selection. Maybe it was the trains' headcodes. Maybe it were their timetables. I tested all that and none of it really cut it.

What finally pointed me to the right direction was when I accidentally deleted my own test timetable and had to rewrite it from scratch. Suddenly that timetable also didn't work, although I'd thought I had done everything the same.

The problem seems to be with the rule. Although the wording "8E46A and 8E46B are mutually exclusive" seems symmetrical, SimSig apparently considers the first and the second subject differently. Just reversing the rule to "8E46B and 8E46A are mutually exclusive" did the trick. Now I don't really know whether it's the order of the trains in the timetable that matters, or their entry time (that might or might not be subject to delays), but including both variants seems to work. You can see the example in the attachment.

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Gloucester timetabling conundrums 03/08/2016 at 15:07 #83923
WesternChampion
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Thanks very much for looking into this for me.

So if I have understood correctly, I need the mutually exclusive rule to be entered twice. Train A and Train B are mutually exclusive AND Train B and Train A are mutually exclusive.

If you feel so inclined, you could look into why 1E61--MX and 5B39--MX won't join. I think it has something to do with the fact that the former is too long for Platform 2 so the rear of the train is on Platform 1. The sim data for the length of Platform 2 is wrong so the platform is shorter than in real life. Do you think I could get round it by shortening 1E61--MX so that it all fits onto Platform 2?

Thanks again for the earlier help!

Chris

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Gloucester timetabling conundrums 03/08/2016 at 17:09 #83926
Finger
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" said:
If you feel so inclined, you could look into why 1E61--MX and 5B39--MX won't join. I think it has something to do with the fact that the former is too long for Platform 2 so the rear of the train is on Platform 1. The sim data for the length of Platform 2 is wrong so the platform is shorter than in real life. Do you think I could get round it by shortening 1E61--MX so that it all fits onto Platform 2?
No, it's because you've got subsequent activities (ie. after the join) with both trains. The correct way would be for one train to join, cease to exist and all further activities should be placed with the other train. The former train should have nothing further in the timetable.

I was thinking the extra activities were benign, but apparently they're not. When I deleted the DR:GW... from 5B39's timetable, it immediately went from "waiting for joining train" to "joining trains". It is unlikely the length of platform 2 makes any difference, because I had the 1E in platform 1 fully, with the rear end clearly overhanging and despite that, the train joined. You should be worried about the front end if anything.

BTW where do you get the pilot loco? In the version you sent, I had to conjure it up.

Last edited: 03/08/2016 at 18:45 by Finger
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Gloucester timetabling conundrums 04/08/2016 at 08:32 #83933
WesternChampion
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The pilot is called GWPT + some suffix. It enters from the Loco Shed as 0WPT at about 00:10 and sits in Platform 3 or the HB siding between duties.#

I was using the Pascal's naming convention from Carlisle etc, although I had to use 0WPT for sim entry and it wouldn't enter as GWPT. I might the headcode to the standard format.

Thanks for your further help. I will amend as you suggested.

Chris

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Gloucester timetabling conundrums 04/08/2016 at 09:46 #83934
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Western Champion just out of curiosity what year is this timetable based on that you are writing?
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Gloucester timetabling conundrums 04/08/2016 at 13:18 #83939
WesternChampion
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" said:
Western Champion just out of curiosity what year is this timetable based on that you are writing?
Summer 1980. I have the Mandatory and Conditional WTTs, plus a Gloucester Station Working Book and have access to the passenger train consists throught the Yahoo BR Coaching Stock Group. A trip notice would be nice but the sim doesn't have the sidings at Cheltenham High Street, Stonehouse Bristol Road (both coal concentration depots) or Quedgeley (Dowmac sleeper factory), for example.

Chris

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Gloucester timetabling conundrums 04/08/2016 at 13:34 #83940
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That's good because I'm doing a some point summer 1980 for the Newport & Cardiff areas. I've got all the necessary info as you with the exceptionof having some trip notices that cover the areas as well. What you need to do for the 'trip' workings is to add them into the timetable, but route them to an alternative destination. If lets say for example as you say the sdgs at Cheltenham SPa are missing I'd probably add the train in but send to Worcester instead. You could always alter the timetable at a later stage if & when the correct era has been done for the timetable. At some point when Bristol is re-released on loader I want to write a timetable for that sim covering 1978 as I have the station working book plus a set of Western Region freight train loads books covering most if not all of the depots on the former Western Region with all the loadings for hydraulics. Yes the Yahoo group on BR coaching stock is a good place to join, I did that a couple of years back. But very little is on the net regarding Trip Notices. Personally I have between 30 - 40 of them in my coolection, but you would slo need some BR Marshalling of freight trains books to be 100% accurate on the formation of wagonload freight trains. I've got about 7 or 8 of those as they are fairly hard to come by as well. Good luck with that. I will be doing a Gloucester timetable for 1986/87 at some point as I have all the stuff for that. The list of projects is getting longer rather than shorter for me at the present.
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Gloucester timetabling conundrums 04/08/2016 at 14:22 #83941
WesternChampion
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" said:
That's good because I'm doing a some point summer 1980 for the Newport & Cardiff areas.
Are we expecting a South Wales sim at some point then?

" said:
you would slo need some BR Marshalling of freight trains books to be 100% accurate on the formation of wagonload freight trains.
I don't have any of these. Any info that you would be prepared to share would be gratefully received

Chris

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Gloucester timetabling conundrums 04/08/2016 at 14:38 #83942
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" said:
" said:
That's good because I'm doing a some point summer 1980 for the Newport & Cardiff areas.
Are we expecting a South Wales sim at some point then?

" said:
you would slo need some BR Marshalling of freight trains books to be 100% accurate on the formation of wagonload freight trains.
I don't have any of these. Any info that you would be prepared to share would be gratefully received

Chris
The some point Pascal refers to is if the South Wales area is ever developed I suppose. They weren't on the list of forthcoming simulations published last year.

"CHECK Do you stop at Capenhurst?" - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Gloucester timetabling conundrums 04/08/2016 at 19:03 #83950
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Western Champoion I'm happy to help you if I can. If you PM me with your e-mail address I'll communicate with you via that.
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