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Incorrect Aspect

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Incorrect Aspect 26/04/2017 at 10:36 #94717
MarkC
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I am just playing this sim and I belive I have have come accross an incorrect signal aspect from a combined main signal to a shunt signal.

In the Ricksmanworth area signal JP37 when set to to JP33 (shunt signal) displays a yellow procede aspect, instead of the normal white call-on used.

I have checked all 3 eras and get the same result.

To see if this was an sequence unique to the LUL area I set signal JP3 to JP15, signal JP 135 to JP115 and JP 2 to JP 15 and they appear to behave in the normal way in regards of setting a route from a combined main signal to a shunt signal.



Versions info
Loader 4.6.1
Sim 3.6


More Info

And I have also come across,another issue with same signal (JP37)

Setting from JP37 to Signal JP45 the train get a call-on aspect not the yellow or green you would normally get.


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Last edited: 26/04/2017 at 10:50 by MarkC
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Incorrect Aspect 26/04/2017 at 12:36 #94719
wellgroomed
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Both are correct aspect sequences and as expected.
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Incorrect Aspect 26/04/2017 at 13:15 #94720
headshot119
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The first one certainly doesn't look correct.
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Incorrect Aspect 26/04/2017 at 14:24 #94721
JamesN
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headshot119 in post 94720 said:
The first one certainly doesn't look correct.
But, unusually, it is correct per Control Tables.

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Incorrect Aspect 26/04/2017 at 14:37 #94723
headshot119
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JamesN in post 94721 said:
headshot119 in post 94720 said:
The first one certainly doesn't look correct.
But, unusually, it is correct per Control Tables.
Having now seen the control table I would agree.

"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Incorrect Aspect 26/04/2017 at 14:38 #94724
TUT
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headshot119 in post 94720 said:
The first one certainly doesn't look correct.
You are correct about this I believe.

It's important to recognise of course that this is a SimSig rendering of LUL practice, which in this regard is more like semaphore practice in that the main colour light signal is a separate signal to the shunt signal, which is in fact an electro-pneumatic rotating disc unless it's been replaced by a fibre-optic equivalent since I was last there. The main signal JP37 is worked by a separate lever to the shunt signal JP38.

Only one route is available from the main signal JP37, the northbound inner home signal from the southbound main. It is used to route trains from the northbound main into the southbound platform number 2 as part of a north-south reversing manoeuvre. The train will be routed from JP46 to JP37 to platform 2.

The shunt signal JP38 is the northbound shunt from the southbound main and has two routes available from it - route 1 to northbound platform 1 over number 27 crossover and route 2 to southbound platform 2 with 27 points normal.

I believe that shunt signal JP38 is to be used for trains being routed from the south sidings. In fact I believe, JP40 requires JP38 off before its lever can be reversed.

Pics for reference: https://www.flickr.com/photos/llangollen_signalman/albums/72157658939413038

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Incorrect Aspect 26/04/2017 at 14:41 #94725
TUT
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JamesN in post 94721 said:
headshot119 in post 94720 said:
The first one certainly doesn't look correct.
But, unusually, it is correct per Control Tables.
Are you sure that applies to trains routed from JP40 signal?

Have a look at the plate behind 40 lever in Rickmansworth box shown here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/llangollen_signalman/21886441905/in/album-72157658939413038/

Am I being silly, or does that not require 38 lever reverse before 40 lever can be reversed.

(Strictly speaking 38 lever must be reversed when clearing trains out of the south sidings via 28 crossover reverse. There used to be a route into what's marked as "Rickmansworth 24" in the sim which would not have required any other levers reverse, but that route is not relevant and is no longer used).

Last edited: 26/04/2017 at 14:44 by TUT
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Incorrect Aspect 26/04/2017 at 14:50 #94726
headshot119
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TUT in post 94725 said:
JamesN in post 94721 said:
headshot119 in post 94720 said:
The first one certainly doesn't look correct.
But, unusually, it is correct per Control Tables.
Are you sure that applies to trains routed from JP40 signal?

Have a look at the plate behind 40 lever in Rickmansworth box shown here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/llangollen_signalman/21886441905/in/album-72157658939413038/

Am I being silly, or does that not require 38 lever reverse before 40 lever can be reversed.

(Strictly speaking 38 lever must be reversed when clearing trains out of the south sidings via 28 crossover reverse. There used to be a route into what's marked as "Rickmansworth 24" in the sim which would not have required any other levers reverse, but that route is not relevant and is no longer used).
According to the control table I've seen 37 off requires BH,BG,BF,BE,BD,971D tracks clear. I would expect the lever plate for 37 to mention 27 if it needed that crossover reverse but interestingly it doesn't mention anything.

I would agree that 40 needs 38 reverse before it can be pulled.

"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Incorrect Aspect 26/04/2017 at 14:56 #94727
TUT
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headshot119 in post 94726 said:
TUT in post 94725 said:
JamesN in post 94721 said:
headshot119 in post 94720 said:
The first one certainly doesn't look correct.
But, unusually, it is correct per Control Tables.
Are you sure that applies to trains routed from JP40 signal?

Have a look at the plate behind 40 lever in Rickmansworth box shown here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/llangollen_signalman/21886441905/in/album-72157658939413038/

Am I being silly, or does that not require 38 lever reverse before 40 lever can be reversed.

(Strictly speaking 38 lever must be reversed when clearing trains out of the south sidings via 28 crossover reverse. There used to be a route into what's marked as "Rickmansworth 24" in the sim which would not have required any other levers reverse, but that route is not relevant and is no longer used).
According to the control table I've seen 37 off requires BH,BG,BF,BE,BD,971D tracks clear. I would expect the lever plate for 37 to mention 27 if it needed that crossover reverse but interestingly it doesn't mention anything.

I would agree that 40 needs 38 reverse before it can be pulled.
37 cannot be cleared with 27 reverse - there's only one route available from the signal and it's into platform 2.

Don't forget there's two signals there in reality, main colour light signal JP37 and disc shunt JP38.

Looking at the lever plates it's 46, the northbound outer home signal that requires 37 reverse for the route into platform 2. Or in other words 47 routes to 46 routes to 37. 40 and 41 route to 38.

Last edited: 26/04/2017 at 14:58 by TUT
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Incorrect Aspect 26/04/2017 at 14:58 #94728
JamesN
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TUT in post 94725 said:
JamesN in post 94721 said:
headshot119 in post 94720 said:
The first one certainly doesn't look correct.
But, unusually, it is correct per Control Tables.
Are you sure that applies to trains routed from JP40 signal?

Have a look at the plate behind 40 lever in Rickmansworth box shown here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/llangollen_signalman/21886441905/in/album-72157658939413038/

Am I being silly, or does that not require 38 lever reverse before 40 lever can be reversed.

(Strictly speaking 38 lever must be reversed when clearing trains out of the south sidings via 28 crossover reverse. There used to be a route into what's marked as "Rickmansworth 24" in the sim which would not have required any other levers reverse, but that route is not relevant and is no longer used).
The mechanical locking, per the lever leads and control tables would prevent routing 40-37-SB Main; 40R requires 38R; 38R locks 37N.

Last edited: 26/04/2017 at 14:59 by JamesN
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Incorrect Aspect 26/04/2017 at 14:59 #94729
headshot119
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TUT in post 94727 said:
headshot119 in post 94726 said:
TUT in post 94725 said:
JamesN in post 94721 said:
headshot119 in post 94720 said:
The first one certainly doesn't look correct.
But, unusually, it is correct per Control Tables.
Are you sure that applies to trains routed from JP40 signal?

Have a look at the plate behind 40 lever in Rickmansworth box shown here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/llangollen_signalman/21886441905/in/album-72157658939413038/

Am I being silly, or does that not require 38 lever reverse before 40 lever can be reversed.

(Strictly speaking 38 lever must be reversed when clearing trains out of the south sidings via 28 crossover reverse. There used to be a route into what's marked as "Rickmansworth 24" in the sim which would not have required any other levers reverse, but that route is not relevant and is no longer used).
According to the control table I've seen 37 off requires BH,BG,BF,BE,BD,971D tracks clear. I would expect the lever plate for 37 to mention 27 if it needed that crossover reverse but interestingly it doesn't mention anything.

I would agree that 40 needs 38 reverse before it can be pulled.
37 cannot be cleared with 27 reverse - there's only one route available from the signal and it's into platform 2.

Don't forget there's two signals there in reality, main colour light signal JP37 and disc shunt JP38.

Looking at the lever plates it's 46, the northbound outer home signal that requires 37 reverse for the route into platform 2. Or in other words 47 routes to 46 routes to 37. 40 and 41 route to 38.
Ah sorry I cross read what you meant. I presume then that JP33 is treated as a main aspect fixed red then? (Even though from the control tables it appears to just be a shunt disk)

"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Incorrect Aspect 26/04/2017 at 15:02 #94730
TUT
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JamesN in post 94728 said:
TUT in post 94725 said:
JamesN in post 94721 said:
headshot119 in post 94720 said:
The first one certainly doesn't look correct.
But, unusually, it is correct per Control Tables.
Are you sure that applies to trains routed from JP40 signal?

Have a look at the plate behind 40 lever in Rickmansworth box shown here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/llangollen_signalman/21886441905/in/album-72157658939413038/

Am I being silly, or does that not require 38 lever reverse before 40 lever can be reversed.

(Strictly speaking 38 lever must be reversed when clearing trains out of the south sidings via 28 crossover reverse. There used to be a route into what's marked as "Rickmansworth 24" in the sim which would not have required any other levers reverse, but that route is not relevant and is no longer used).
The mechanical locking, per the lever leads and control tables would prevent routing 40-37-SB Main; 40R requires 38R; 38R locks 37N.
Precisely this =) But in the OP you have exactly this - 40-37-SB Main. Remember 37 is the red-yellow and 38 is the disc, simulated on SimSig as a subsidiary position light shunt signal and not numbered separately due to the nature of the software.

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Incorrect Aspect 26/04/2017 at 15:11 #94731
TUT
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headshot119 in post 94729 said:
TUT in post 94727 said:
headshot119 in post 94726 said:
TUT in post 94725 said:
JamesN in post 94721 said:
headshot119 in post 94720 said:
The first one certainly doesn't look correct.
But, unusually, it is correct per Control Tables.
Are you sure that applies to trains routed from JP40 signal?

Have a look at the plate behind 40 lever in Rickmansworth box shown here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/llangollen_signalman/21886441905/in/album-72157658939413038/

Am I being silly, or does that not require 38 lever reverse before 40 lever can be reversed.

(Strictly speaking 38 lever must be reversed when clearing trains out of the south sidings via 28 crossover reverse. There used to be a route into what's marked as "Rickmansworth 24" in the sim which would not have required any other levers reverse, but that route is not relevant and is no longer used).
According to the control table I've seen 37 off requires BH,BG,BF,BE,BD,971D tracks clear. I would expect the lever plate for 37 to mention 27 if it needed that crossover reverse but interestingly it doesn't mention anything.

I would agree that 40 needs 38 reverse before it can be pulled.
37 cannot be cleared with 27 reverse - there's only one route available from the signal and it's into platform 2.

Don't forget there's two signals there in reality, main colour light signal JP37 and disc shunt JP38.

Looking at the lever plates it's 46, the northbound outer home signal that requires 37 reverse for the route into platform 2. Or in other words 47 routes to 46 routes to 37. 40 and 41 route to 38.
Ah sorry I cross read what you meant. I presume then that JP33 is treated as a main aspect fixed red then? (Even though from the control tables it appears to just be a shunt disk)
It is physically just a shunt disc I can't see any fixed red light there myself, but there again a Network Rail fixed red gives exactly the same indication as a modern LED position light shunt signal at danger.

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Incorrect Aspect 26/04/2017 at 15:15 #94732
MarkC
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I am trying to follow whats being said, and think I have the jist of it JP37, is in respets 37 and 38 (although both not simulated in SimSig), 37 the main signal and 38 the shunt (subsidiary position), to set a route from the sidings you need to have pulled 38 with a route set into one of the platforms and then can set the route from 40, which should therefore show a call-on aspect from the subsidiary position, and not the yellow aspect on the main
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Incorrect Aspect 26/04/2017 at 15:29 #94733
TUT
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mark265 in post 94732 said:
I am trying to follow whats being said, and think I have the jist of it JP37, is in respets 37 and 38 (although both not simulated in SimSig), 37 the main signal and 38 the shunt (subsidiary position), to set a route from the sidings you need to have pulled 38 with a route set into one of the platforms and then can set the route from 40, which should therefore show a call-on aspect from the subsidiary position, and not the yellow aspect on the main
Yep that's about it. Unfortunately I can't get a picture of JP37 and JP38 but it looks quite a lot like this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/7006770695/in/album-72157624683003635/

These are now-decommissioned NQ25 and shunt signal NQ48 at Finchley Central. NQ48 though is a shunt from the mainline into a siding so its function is a bit different, but you can picture how it would look on the ground.

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Incorrect Aspect 26/04/2017 at 15:30 #94734
MarkC
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TUT in post 94733 said:
mark265 in post 94732 said:
I am trying to follow whats being said, and think I have the jist of it JP37, is in respets 37 and 38 (although both not simulated in SimSig), 37 the main signal and 38 the shunt (subsidiary position), to set a route from the sidings you need to have pulled 38 with a route set into one of the platforms and then can set the route from 40, which should therefore show a call-on aspect from the subsidiary position, and not the yellow aspect on the main
Yep that's about it. Unfortunately I can't get a picture of JP37 and JP38 but it looks quite a lot like this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/7006770695/in/album-72157624683003635/

These are now-decommissioned NQ25 and shunt signal NQ48 at Finchley Central. NQ48 though is a shunt from the mainline into a siding so its function is a bit different, but you can picture how it would look on the ground.
Using the same pole to save on space sort of thing

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Incorrect Aspect 26/04/2017 at 15:30 #94735
JamesN
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mark265 in post 94732 said:
I am trying to follow whats being said, and think I have the jist of it JP37, is in respets 37 and 38 (although both not simulated in SimSig), 37 the main signal and 38 the shunt (subsidiary position), to set a route from the sidings you need to have pulled 38 with a route set into one of the platforms and then can set the route from 40, which should therefore show a call-on aspect from the subsidiary position, and not the yellow aspect on the main
SimSig is probably operating towards the limits of its capability here - as has been said it's not really designed to simulate LU signalling practices which are, in reality, quite different from main lines.

A solution might be to provide a shunt exit (white arrow) at JP33, and an additional route from JP37/38 to the white arrow. JP40 would then require either that route set or the existing shunt route from JP37/38 to the NB main before being able to set. Similarly JP46 to JP37 would first require JP37/38 to JP33 (existing main aspect route) set before being able to set.

However, there are two caveats to this - Firstly; Marylebone is first and foremost not a SimSig sim, but a Chiltern Railways training/timetabling tool which Geoff has produced for them to their specification, and then been allowed to release to the public as well. Secondly ARS doesn't cope particularly well with having to set a route from B to C before setting a route from A to B. It will do it, but it can and does cause issues.

I have the necessary information to improve the realism of the LUL stretch a little; and will have a conversation with Geoff off-forum whether improvements are warranted/possible/etc

As to the initial report in the thread - there isn't really a bug - some very minor detail differences regarding aspects displayed and sequential route locking perhaps; but on the whole aspect sequences are generally correct.

Last edited: 26/04/2017 at 15:31 by JamesN
Reason: formatting

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Incorrect Aspect 26/04/2017 at 15:36 #94736
MarkC
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JamesN in post 94735 said:
mark265 in post 94732 said:
I am trying to follow whats being said, and think I have the jist of it JP37, is in respets 37 and 38 (although both not simulated in SimSig), 37 the main signal and 38 the shunt (subsidiary position), to set a route from the sidings you need to have pulled 38 with a route set into one of the platforms and then can set the route from 40, which should therefore show a call-on aspect from the subsidiary position, and not the yellow aspect on the main
SimSig is probably operating towards the limits of its capability here - as has been said it's not really designed to simulate LU signalling practices which are, in reality, quite different from main lines.

A solution might be to provide a shunt exit (white arrow) at JP33, and an additional route from JP37/38 to the white arrow. JP40 would then require either [b]that[b] route set or the existing shunt route from JP37/38 to the NB main before being able to set. Similarly JP46 to JP37 would first require JP37/38 to JP33 (existing main aspect route) set before being able to set.

However, there are two caveats to this - Firstly; Marylebone is first and foremost not a SimSig sim, but a Chiltern Railways training/timetabling tool which Geoff has produced for them to their specification, and then been allowed to release to the public as well. Secondly ARS doesn't cope particularly well with having to set a route from B to C before setting a route from A to B. It will do it, but it can and does cause issues.

I have the necessary information to improve the realism of the LUL stretch a little; and will have a conversation with Geoff off-forum whether improvements are warranted/possible/etc

As to the initial report in the thread - there isn't really a bug - some very minor detail differences regarding aspects displayed and sequential route locking perhaps; but on the whole aspect sequences are generally correct.
I still think it is a bug regardless, as even in all other sims produced, I have never seen a yellow procede aspect give on a signal with a route set to a shunt signal. And even in real world, given a yellow procede aspect to a route set to a shunt signal would be highly unusual

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Incorrect Aspect 26/04/2017 at 15:43 #94738
TUT
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JamesN in post 94735 said:
mark265 in post 94732 said:
I am trying to follow whats being said, and think I have the jist of it JP37, is in respets 37 and 38 (although both not simulated in SimSig), 37 the main signal and 38 the shunt (subsidiary position), to set a route from the sidings you need to have pulled 38 with a route set into one of the platforms and then can set the route from 40, which should therefore show a call-on aspect from the subsidiary position, and not the yellow aspect on the main
SimSig is probably operating towards the limits of its capability here - as has been said it's not really designed to simulate LU signalling practices which are, in reality, quite different from main lines.

A solution might be to provide a shunt exit (white arrow) at JP33, and an additional route from JP37/38 to the white arrow. JP40 would then require either that route set or the existing shunt route from JP37/38 to the NB main before being able to set. Similarly JP46 to JP37 would first require JP37/38 to JP33 (existing main aspect route) set before being able to set.

However, there are two caveats to this - Firstly; Marylebone is first and foremost not a SimSig sim, but a Chiltern Railways training/timetabling tool which Geoff has produced for them to their specification, and then been allowed to release to the public as well. Secondly ARS doesn't cope particularly well with having to set a route from B to C before setting a route from A to B. It will do it, but it can and does cause issues.

I have the necessary information to improve the realism of the LUL stretch a little; and will have a conversation with Geoff off-forum whether improvements are warranted/possible/etc

As to the initial report in the thread - there isn't really a bug - some very minor detail differences regarding aspects displayed and sequential route locking perhaps; but on the whole aspect sequences are generally correct.
I think that's the answer. It's so easy for us players to be blissfully unaware of how tricky things are under the bonnet!

Although, if you are looking at making a few improvements to the LUL area (and bear in mind this will all be swept away with resignalling soon anyway), I would point out JT82 is actually four-aspect and there are two routes available from JW3 signal, via 35 crossover or 37 crossover. Apologies if they were already on your to-do list, just things I noticed that I thought were a bit too trivial to bother writing up

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Incorrect Aspect 26/04/2017 at 15:45 #94739
TUT
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mark265 in post 94736 said:
JamesN in post 94735 said:
mark265 in post 94732 said:
I am trying to follow whats being said, and think I have the jist of it JP37, is in respets 37 and 38 (although both not simulated in SimSig), 37 the main signal and 38 the shunt (subsidiary position), to set a route from the sidings you need to have pulled 38 with a route set into one of the platforms and then can set the route from 40, which should therefore show a call-on aspect from the subsidiary position, and not the yellow aspect on the main
SimSig is probably operating towards the limits of its capability here - as has been said it's not really designed to simulate LU signalling practices which are, in reality, quite different from main lines.

A solution might be to provide a shunt exit (white arrow) at JP33, and an additional route from JP37/38 to the white arrow. JP40 would then require either [b]that[b] route set or the existing shunt route from JP37/38 to the NB main before being able to set. Similarly JP46 to JP37 would first require JP37/38 to JP33 (existing main aspect route) set before being able to set.

However, there are two caveats to this - Firstly; Marylebone is first and foremost not a SimSig sim, but a Chiltern Railways training/timetabling tool which Geoff has produced for them to their specification, and then been allowed to release to the public as well. Secondly ARS doesn't cope particularly well with having to set a route from B to C before setting a route from A to B. It will do it, but it can and does cause issues.

I have the necessary information to improve the realism of the LUL stretch a little; and will have a conversation with Geoff off-forum whether improvements are warranted/possible/etc

As to the initial report in the thread - there isn't really a bug - some very minor detail differences regarding aspects displayed and sequential route locking perhaps; but on the whole aspect sequences are generally correct.
I still think it is a bug regardless, as even in all other sims produced, I have never seen a yellow procede aspect give on a signal with a route set to a shunt signal. And even in real world, given a yellow procede aspect to a route set to a shunt signal would be highly unusual
And yet it is precisely allowed on LU to have JP37 off with a single yellow reading towards shunt signal JP33 on. The problem here is that JP37 is for the route from the northbound main into the southbound platform and JP38 (the shunt) is for the route from the sidings into the northbound or southbound platform. (JP38 is also used for a mainline shunt from the southbound main but that's not really relevant!)

Last edited: 26/04/2017 at 15:48 by TUT
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Incorrect Aspect 26/04/2017 at 15:47 #94740
headshot119
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mark265 in post 94736 said:

I still think it is a bug regardless, as even in all other sims produced, I have never seen a yellow procede aspect give on a signal with a route set to a shunt signal. And even in real world, given a yellow procede aspect to a route set to a shunt signal would be highly unusual
It's not a bug, there is a main aspect route from JP37 - JP33. LUL signalling is somewhat different to the mainline. (When I originally looked at the thread I'd failed to realise I was looking at LUL signalling)

"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Incorrect Aspect 26/04/2017 at 15:57 #94741
MarkC
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Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread, I now understand why it is the way it is, and not a bug.
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Incorrect Aspect 26/04/2017 at 16:17 #94742
JamesN
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TUT in post 94738 said:


I think that's the answer. It's so easy for us players to be blissfully unaware of how tricky things are under the bonnet!

Although, if you are looking at making a few improvements to the LUL area (and bear in mind this will all be swept away with resignalling soon anyway), I would point out JT82 is actually four-aspect and there are two routes available from JW3 signal, via 35 crossover or 37 crossover. Apologies if they were already on your to-do list, just things I noticed that I thought were a bit too trivial to bother writing up :)
It would be Geoff's to-do list not mine! There's plenty others just with a cursory look at the Amersham Interlocking - all very minor detail stuff, but there nonetheless.

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Incorrect Aspect 26/04/2017 at 16:21 #94743
TUT
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For interest I've taken a couple of screenshots showing these signals from Video125's Metropolitan Main Line Driver's Eye View video: https://www.video125.com/products/metropolitan-main-line

Bear in mind this was filmed in 1995 so things may look a little bit different now. For one thing, number 24 road was still in commission then, but it gives you the general idea.




Last edited: 26/04/2017 at 16:24 by TUT
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Incorrect Aspect 27/04/2017 at 11:35 #94756
clive
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mark265 in post 94732 said:
I am trying to follow whats being said, and think I have the jist of it JP37, is in respets 37 and 38 (although both not simulated in SimSig),
I haven't got the sim to hand, but what shows at the top of the signal menu? It's pretty trivial to make it say "JP37/38" if it doesn't already do so.

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