Upcoming Games


Full list
Add a game

Upcoming Events

Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim

You are here: Home > Forum > Simulations > Timetables > Peterborough > Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim

Page 1 of 2

Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 14/05/2017 at 20:55 #95104
Lyn-Greenwood
Avatar
178 posts
Online
Just a quick note to let you all know I'm working on Peter Bennet's 1st July 1977 timetable to make it work correctly with the new Loader version of the Peterborough sim.
Log in to reply
The following users said thank you: BarryM, Steamer, Peter Bennet, sunocske
Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 14/05/2017 at 21:45 #95105
BarryM
Avatar
2093 posts
Lyn, I have already done it. Would you like a copy to check it?

Barry

Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Log in to reply
Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 16/05/2017 at 13:29 #95130
Lyn-Greenwood
Avatar
178 posts
Online
BarryM in post 95105 said:
Lyn, I have already done it. Would you like a copy to check it?

Barry

Yes, please, Barry. Please send it to lyn.greenwood2@gmail.com and I'll get back to you with comments.

Lyn

Log in to reply
Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 19/05/2017 at 13:17 #95209
clive
Avatar
1993 posts
Please be aware of the issues in this thread.
Log in to reply
Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 19/05/2017 at 13:35 #95210
Lyn-Greenwood
Avatar
178 posts
Online
Thanks for the reminder, Clive. I'm keeping an eye on the other thread and will check the specific issues when testing my updated 1977 timetable.
Log in to reply
Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 19/05/2017 at 13:49 #95211
VInce
Avatar
420 posts
HIya,

I've just finished a revamp of Peter's work if anyone would like a copy for testing purposes.

It seems to run well for me but YMMV

Its here as an attachment - please consider it to be a beta test copy.


Vince

Post has attachments. Log in to view them.
Last edited: 19/05/2017 at 13:50 by VInce
Reason: None given

Log in to reply
Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 19/05/2017 at 14:05 #95213
VInce
Avatar
420 posts
VInce in post 95211 said:
HIya,

I've just finished a revamp of Peter's work if anyone would like a copy for testing purposes.

It seems to run well for me but YMMV

Its here as an attachment - please consider it to be a beta test copy.


Vince
There is a minor error I've found - 0D64 appears off Peterborough Loco sidings even though 6D64 isn't running - I've changed the rule and I'm testing that now....

Vince

Log in to reply
Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 19/05/2017 at 17:00 #95218
Lyn-Greenwood
Avatar
178 posts
Online
Vince,

It looks like you've duplicated the work that I'm doing despite my earlier post informing everyone that I was working on updating the timetable (with Peter's approval, by the way)!

I'll download your two attachments and have a look at them but I'm curious as to why you've attached a .WTR file when the Loader doesn't use those files. Any chance of making your latest version (with the 0D64 Rule fixed) available?

Lyn

Log in to reply
Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 19/05/2017 at 17:37 #95220
VInce
Avatar
420 posts
Lyn,

I started this weeks ago probably before you did - I've done that with a number of timetables but not made them available publicly for fear of treading on someone's toes.

I appear to have stood on yours - I'm sorry. I thought it may be of use you and others who are working on the same thing to compare. I certainly didn't think it would be challenging any "official" version. This is just my take on Peter's work

It may be a day or two but I'll make it available as soon as I can.

Perhaps you can help, though. I tried a rule to prevent 0D64 running when 6D64 didn't run but it clearly didn't work. I can't find a rule which says "X doesn't run when Y doesn't run" so now I'm trying "0D64-1 must not depart from Peterborough Loco Sidings until 5 minutes after 6D64 has finished dividing" Since 6D64 doesn't run, then it doesn't divide so that ought to work - I think.

What do you think?

Vince

Log in to reply
Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 19/05/2017 at 18:06 #95221
Sacro
Avatar
1029 posts
Lyn-Greenwood in post 95218 said:
... you've attached a .WTR file when the Loader doesn't use those files...
Moderator note - This post is not 100% accurate.

It certainly should use them, otherwise that's a bug and should go on Mantis. Some timetables come with them and Convdata still generates them.

Last edited: 19/05/2017 at 18:36 by headshot119
Reason: None given

Log in to reply
Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 19/05/2017 at 18:14 #95223
Steamer
Avatar
3050 posts
Sacro in post 95221 said:
Lyn-Greenwood in post 95218 said:
... you've attached a .WTR file when the Loader doesn't use those files...
It certainly should use them, otherwise that's a bug and should go on Mantis. Some timetables come with them and Convdata still generates them.
To clarify:

When a timetable is saved in the Loader, the TT and Rules both go in the .WTT file. The Loader can, however, read .WTR files from timetables saved in .exe simulations.

Therefore, you shouldn't need a .WTR file if the timetable was saved in the Loader version of Peterborough.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
Last edited: 19/05/2017 at 18:14 by Steamer
Reason: None given

Log in to reply
Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 19/05/2017 at 18:33 #95225
headshot119
Avatar
3372 posts
Online
Sacro in post 95221 said:
Lyn-Greenwood in post 95218 said:
... you've attached a .WTR file when the Loader doesn't use those files...
It certainly should use them, otherwise that's a bug and should go on Mantis. Some timetables come with them and Convdata still generates them.
An unhelpful post, there shouldn't be a .WTR if it's a loader generated timetable.

"CHECK Do you stop at Capenhurst?" - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
Log in to reply
The following user said thank you: Peter Bennet
Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 19/05/2017 at 18:38 #95226
Lyn-Greenwood
Avatar
178 posts
Online
VInce in post 95220 said:
Lyn,

I started this weeks ago probably before you did - I've done that with a number of timetables but not made them available publicly for fear of treading on someone's toes.

I appear to have stood on yours - I'm sorry. I thought it may be of use you and others who are working on the same thing to compare. I certainly didn't think it would be challenging any "official" version. This is just my take on Peter's work

It may be a day or two but I'll make it available as soon as I can.

Perhaps you can help, though. I tried a rule to prevent 0D64 running when 6D64 didn't run but it clearly didn't work. I can't find a rule which says "X doesn't run when Y doesn't run" so now I'm trying "0D64-1 must not depart from Peterborough Loco Sidings until 5 minutes after 6D64 has finished dividing" Since 6D64 doesn't run, then it doesn't divide so that ought to work - I think.

What do you think?

Vince
I know what you mean by 'for fear of treading on someone's toes', but don't worry, you've not trod on mine. I'm not providing an "official" version of the timetable - I just checked with Peter that it would be OK before I started work on it.

You seem to have fixed the problems that appeared with the new Loader sim and also some anomalies that were in the original timetable. Do you have access to the raw data or did you just invent the most likely scenario? 8N40 springs to mind: in the original timetable it entered at Fletton Flyash but didn't have a corresponding inward working. Pascal has agreed to try and find the actual workings in his vast collection of data. Another is 2B66-2: it's description says it terminates at Huntingdon, but it travels to Peterborough. Unfortunately, the ECS that it forms (5B66) is timetabled to depart Peterborough before the inward working arrives, but the ECS departure time of 22:18 seems more appropriate for Huntingdon.

I'll have a good look through your timetable and let you know if I spot any obvious problems, but for starters you need to look at Peterborough Platform 4 between 22:00 and 23:30 as there are conflicts. I moved a couple of things to Platform 5 to solve them.

Finally the Rule for 0D64: I think "0D64 must appear 0 minutes after 0D64-1 leaves the area" is what you need. If 0D64-1 doesn't get created because 6D64 doesn't run, then the new loco won't appear. The use of 0 for the time is intentional and not a typo, by the way.

Lyn

Log in to reply
Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 19/05/2017 at 19:05 #95227
VInce
Avatar
420 posts
Lyn,

As far as 8N40 is concerned, since it was Class 8 I would guess it would be crippled vehicles knocked out from the regular trains while they were undergoing exam on the flyash circle. These would be tripped to Crescent Sidings to be made up into a train so it seemed sensible to start it from there.

As far as 2B66-2 is concerned, the title showed it terminating at Huntingdon, but the actual timetable showed it as a through train to Peterborough so I simply altered the title to fit.

I've also seeded the trains that Peter showed to start from somewhat unlikely starting points and all that seems to work OK.

I've made a few more alterations to the flyash scenarios since I posted the first iteration, so if you can hang on a couple of hours I'll post a second iteration.

Thanks for understanding - I've re-written a number of timetables and they work well but I've never had the confidence to put them to the public test. Maybe I should.

Vince

Log in to reply
Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 19/05/2017 at 22:50 #95232
VInce
Avatar
420 posts
Lyn,

Here we go then - here's the second iteration with the rule, as suggested by yourself employed.

I've also sorted a couple of conflicts in the time frame you suggested and if everything runs on-time (not early, as 3M21 is prone to do) then everything is ok.

I'm still looking for any tweaks which may be necessary so I'm about to start to run the complete 27 hours of the sim and see what transpires.

Thanks for your help,

Vince

Post has attachments. Log in to view them.
Log in to reply
Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 19/05/2017 at 22:50 #95233
VInce
Avatar
420 posts
Lyn,

Here we go then - here's the second iteration with the rule, as suggested by yourself employed.

I've also sorted a couple of conflicts in the time frame you suggested and if everything runs on-time (not early, as 3M21 is prone to do) then everything is ok.

I'm still looking for any tweaks which may be necessary so I'm about to start to run the complete 27 hours of the sim and see what transpires.

Thanks for your help,

Vince

Post has attachments. Log in to view them.
Log in to reply
Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 20/05/2017 at 10:07 #95235
VInce
Avatar
420 posts
Lyn,

There are a few conflicts fixed around 0700, a major rules error which caused ECS movements to be very late and a few cosmetic changes in this...

Vince

Post has attachments. Log in to view them.
Last edited: 20/05/2017 at 10:22 by VInce
Reason: None given

Log in to reply
Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 20/05/2017 at 12:06 #95236
Lyn-Greenwood
Avatar
178 posts
Online
VInce in post 95235 said:
Lyn,

There are a few conflicts fixed around 0700, a major rules error which caused ECS movements to be very late and a few cosmetic changes in this...

Vince
You have been busy since my last post. I've downloaded your latest version and will have a look at it later today.

Do you have access to the 'real' timetable for Friday 1 July 1977? If you have, I'll send you a list of trains that I'm not sure about. As an example, I wondered if 8E10 and 8E10-1 should be regarded as 'alternatives' since one departs Nuneaton at 14:02 and the other at 14:05.

Will be in touch later.

Lyn

Log in to reply
Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 20/05/2017 at 14:20 #95239
VInce
Avatar
420 posts
Lyn,

No I don't have the real data for the day in question - although I was on the Leicester desk in Nottingham Control in 1977 and I recognise a lot of the trains, I can't say I remember a lot of the detail. All I'm really doing, I guess, is I hope, applying a little common sense with an operating knowledge of the time to iron out the discrepancies in Peter's work. I certainly wouldn't claim to be anywhere near an expert at this, but learning all the time.

I would say with some certainty that 8E10 and 8E10-1 are alternatives. There wouldn't be two Class 8s as close as that.

V

Log in to reply
Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 21/05/2017 at 09:12 #95264
VInce
Avatar
420 posts
Lyn,

I would appreciate your views on the following.

Having run the first 12 hours of the revamped timetable, its clear that there are some very tight and some impossible platforming issues on the 4/5 side of the station.

Across the other side things are very easy. In fact the Spalding DMU sits no less that 4 hours in Platform 3 both in the morning and afternoon and does nothing, just blocking the platform. To me it seems unlikely to me that it would be allowed to stay there that long with things being so tight the other side but without the actual data to hand I can't say, of course.

As a test, I've put in an EDMU to Nene 5B91-1 off 2B91-1 and and another 5B91-2 off 2b91-2 to clear the platform with corresponding return workings. Platform 3 then becomes useable for down trains from Kings Cross which sometimes struggle to get in on Platform 4.

I'm happy with it as I believe that's what would have happened in reality.

What's your view?

Vince

Log in to reply
Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 21/05/2017 at 09:34 #95265
Peter Bennet
Avatar
4643 posts
Lyn-Greenwood in post 95236 said:
VInce in post 95235 said:
Lyn,

There are a few conflicts fixed around 0700, a major rules error which caused ECS movements to be very late and a few cosmetic changes in this...

Vince
You have been busy since my last post. I've downloaded your latest version and will have a look at it later today.

Do you have access to the 'real' timetable for Friday 1 July 1977? If you have, I'll send you a list of trains that I'm not sure about. As an example, I wondered if 8E10 and 8E10-1 should be regarded as 'alternatives' since one departs Nuneaton at 14:02 and the other at 14:05.

Will be in touch later.

Lyn
Somewhere I have a complete set of A3 photocopies of the WTT for the date in question. If you make a list of queries I can see if I can find them.

Peter

My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.
Log in to reply
Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 21/05/2017 at 09:38 #95266
Peter Bennet
Avatar
4643 posts
VInce in post 95264 said:
Lyn,

I would appreciate your views on the following.

Having run the first 12 hours of the revamped timetable, its clear that there are some very tight and some impossible platforming issues on the 4/5 side of the station.

Across the other side things are very easy. In fact the Spalding DMU sits no less that 4 hours in Platform 3 both in the morning and afternoon and does nothing, just blocking the platform. To me it seems unlikely to me that it would be allowed to stay there that long with things being so tight the other side but without the actual data to hand I can't say, of course.

As a test, I've put in an EDMU to Nene 5B91-1 off 2B91-1 and and another 5B91-2 off 2b91-2 to clear the platform with corresponding return workings. Platform 3 then becomes useable for down trains from Kings Cross which sometimes struggle to get in on Platform 4.

I'm happy with it as I believe that's what would have happened in reality.

What's your view?

Vince
From memory, the platforming here and at KGX/CBG were all guesswork and you are probably right about the festering unit. I suspect the WTT does not show any ECS movement, again if you add it to a list of queries I can try and double check.

Peter

My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.
Log in to reply
The following user said thank you: VInce
Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 21/05/2017 at 10:14 #95269
VInce
Avatar
420 posts
Peter,

Thank you. I was on the back desk in Derby PSB and Trent PSB in the 80s/90s and there, the platforming was a matter for the Station Manager to decide and produce an A&D book. That was done with a station manager and a signaller being detached from normal duties for a week, sitting down with the WTT and working out what could be done so there were no conflicts on the approaches and in the platforms. It was a tribute to them that when the A&D book was produced on day 1 of any new timetable, the timetable worked more or less perfectly.

I guess, unless an A&D book for Peterborough 1977 still exists it is, as you say, all guesswork.

Vince

Log in to reply
Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 22/05/2017 at 02:02 #95292
VInce
Avatar
420 posts
Gentlemen,

I've been through the whole 24 hours ( in "beginner" mode so as there would be no delays caused by me) and I've attempted to iron out all of the conflicts and discrepancies. The file is attached below and I would appreciate it if someone else could run it on their system and check my work as there are bound to be some things I've missed.

A few notes to accompany the file:-

1) There is a huge amount of early running on passenger services. Not just a minute or two either, some Class one services from Kings Cross are arriving at Peterborough anything up to 10 minutes early. I presume that this is how it was in reality since the timings must have come from a WTT.

2) As I said in a previous message, I liberated Platform 3 rather than having a DMU stood there for four hours in the morning and four hours in the afternoon doing nothing. I have inserted four (mythical?) EDMU movements to send the unit to Nene and bring it back each time it was needed. The result was that the pressure on platforming on the 4/5 side of the station was much reduced as I could re-platform many of the northbound Class 1 services to P3. It really did make a big difference.

3) From around 1730 to 2130 platforming on the P4/5 side is very tight and there are a three instances of permissive passenger working, this despite re-platforming five northbound Class 1 services to P2/3. As presented, the platforming simply didn't work and there were many, many conflicts to eradicate. To work it properly, I would guess the best bet would be to turn ARS off for the station area in that time frame as it was making some very strange decisions when I tried to run with it. The fact that an arrival from Leicester lays over on P4 for about 40 minutes until its next working to Stamford didn't help much either. Its still not perfect but I reckon its about as good as it going to get.

4) The famous 8N40, which on the original was shown to start from Fletton Flyash which I don't think can be done now. I've made an assumption that the wagons on this service would be flyash presflo green-cards going to the wagon repairers so I guess they would be knocked out of the trains on the Flyash line and tripped to Crescent, where 8N40 now starts from.

5) Be aware of the issues raised here https://www.simsig.co.uk/Forum/ThreadView/43636.
The work-around is, when the train calls up to say it has been wrongly routed, abandon the timetable until it is past the station area i.e either at Fletton Jcn (if via P2) or on the DSL (if running via Stamford). Re-instate the timetable there before clearing the signal into the Flyash Circle. Incidentally, all trains going around the circle are shown with a dwell of one hour thirty minutes, which, from memory was the allocated time.

I would greatly appreciate any comments anyone cares to make critical or otherwise. Peter Bennett did all of the hard work and I've just tried to tidy it up a bit.

Vince

Post has attachments. Log in to view them.
Last edited: 22/05/2017 at 02:14 by VInce
Reason: None given

Log in to reply
The following user said thank you: BarryM
Peterborough 1977 timetable being refreshed for new Loader sim 22/05/2017 at 04:01 #95293
uboat
Avatar
218 posts
Vince
Version numbers help. Saves overwriting the original.
0D66 ran when 0B64-2 didn't. I'm running the first one you posted
John

Log in to reply
The following user said thank you: VInce