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Delayed train not leaving Letchwoth

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Delayed train not leaving Letchwoth 16/07/2017 at 11:59 #96419
bugsy
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I'm running a Kings Cross simulation (Version 4.5.15 with Loader 4.6.3) and have encountered a slight problem that could probably occur in any sim.
2C24 (which is 25 mins late) is sitting in Platform 2 at Letchworth and the rear portion has been detached and now forms 5R55. The time is 17.50 and now I have the next scheduled arrival 2C26 waiting behind the other two.
I'm wondering why 2C24 isn't moving, so checked the Train List and it gives the departure time as 17.55. I can't see how to change this to get 2C24 going again.
The solution is probably obvious, but unfortunately I can't find it.
I have attached a picture and a save in case it helps.


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Delayed train not leaving Letchwoth 16/07/2017 at 12:27 #96420
BarryM
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Using F2 abandon 2C24 timetable. Once it starts moving,, reinstate its timetable, then edit and update the trains next location.

Barry

Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
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Delayed train not leaving Letchwoth 16/07/2017 at 12:38 #96421
bugsy
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BarryM in post 96420 said:
Using F2 abandon 2C24 timetable. Once it starts moving,, reinstate its timetable, then edit and update the trains next location.

Barry
Thanks Barry. I did think of doing that, but thought that there might have been an alternative way.
Right then. Back to the 'grindstone'

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Delayed train not leaving Letchwoth 16/07/2017 at 12:46 #96423
Peter Bennet
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While Barry's answer will get it going again it does not answer the question of why the problem arose in the first place.

I'm unclear as to why the expected time of departure is so late.
What is the sim time?
Why was it so late?
Were you notified of some sort of disruption, e.g. wrong sort of sandwiches resulting in passenger disruption?


Peter

If you've played all the games they play; You played them yesterday:; Walkaway, walkaway; If you've been, where they want to go; Seen all they got to show; Just walkaway, walkaway, walkaway.
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Delayed train not leaving Letchwoth 16/07/2017 at 12:49 #96424
mark265
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This may be down to dwell times that have been set from what I can see.

2C24-1 come in to Letchworth to detach 5R55 at the rear and then 2C24-1 in effect terminates, then the front portion becomes a new train 2C24-2, having looked at the train types, it appears that a dwell time has been put in to "teminate forward" for a number of stock types and 2C24-1 is an 8 car 321 which has a "terminate forward" dwell time of 6 mins.

From what I can summarise is that a train that terminates and becomes a new train the onward working will not move until the dwell time has elapsed.

Last edited: 16/07/2017 at 12:50 by mark265
Reason: edited

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Delayed train not leaving Letchwoth 16/07/2017 at 22:08 #96438
bugsy
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Peter Bennet in post 96423 said:
While Barry's answer will get it going again it does not answer the question of why the problem arose in the first place.

I'm unclear as to why the expected time of departure is so late.
What is the sim time?
Why was it so late?
Were you notified of some sort of disruption, e.g. wrong sort of sandwiches resulting in passenger disruption?

Peter
The sim time is 17:50 as per the previously attached saved game. The reason that it was so late escapes me, although looking at a previous save at 17:00 when 2C24 was approaching Potters Bar, it was probably down to the fact that I had incorrectly routed it via the Down Slow and got caught up behind a stopping train. Poor regulation of the trains I'm afraid. There were no notifications of disruption as you suggest might have been the case. If I play an earlier save at 17:40, 2C24-2 comes to a stop at Letchworth at approximayely 17:45 and the train finishes dividing at 17:46:45 (rear portion forming 5R55). As can be seen from the second screen shot, 2C24-2 then appears to wait for a further 6 minutes until 17:52. This delay is what prompted my question in the first place.
What would the solution be if Barry's isn't the correct answer?

mark265 in post 96424 said:
This may be down to dwell times that have been set from what I can see.
Barry. I did look at the dwell times in the TT Editor as you can see from the first screen shot, but couldn't see anything, unless I've missed something of coarse.

All very confusing!




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Delayed train not leaving Letchwoth 16/07/2017 at 22:32 #96440
Peter Bennet
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bugsy in post 96438 said:
Peter Bennet in post 96423 said:
While Barry's answer will get it going again it does not answer the question of why the problem arose in the first place.

Peter
What would the solution be if Barry's isn't the correct answer?

Barry's solution is more of a hand of god resolution where all-else fails. Mark, however, might be on to something.

bugsy in post 96438 said:
mark265 in post 96424 said:
This may be down to dwell times that have been set from what I can see.
Barry. I did look at the dwell times in the TT Editor as you can see from the first screen shot, but couldn't see anything, unless I've missed something of course.
Have you had a look at the dwell times under the generic train type data?

Peter

If you've played all the games they play; You played them yesterday:; Walkaway, walkaway; If you've been, where they want to go; Seen all they got to show; Just walkaway, walkaway, walkaway.
Last edited: 16/07/2017 at 22:34 by Peter Bennet
Reason: Formatting

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Delayed train not leaving Letchwoth 16/07/2017 at 22:39 #96441
BarryM
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mark265 in post 96424 said:
This may be down to dwell times that have been set from what I can see.

2C24-1 come in to Letchworth to detach 5R55 at the rear and then 2C24-1 in effect terminates, then the front portion becomes a new train 2C24-2, having looked at the train types, it appears that a dwell time has been put in to "teminate forward" for a number of stock types and 2C24-1 is an 8 car 321 which has a "terminate forward" dwell time of 6 mins.

From what I can summarise is that a train that terminates and becomes a new train the onward working will not move until the dwell time has elapsed.
Logistically good questions Peter. Sorry, I did not load the ssg. If that's the case, then 2C24-2 waits and 2C26 waits unless you terminate 2C24 and have 2C26 takes the passengers onwards. Or then again combine the 2/317s at Baldock.

Barry

Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Last edited: 16/07/2017 at 22:49 by BarryM
Reason: None given

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Delayed train not leaving Letchwoth 16/07/2017 at 22:49 #96442
mark265
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The dwell times I am talking about is set by the train type and not the timetable under the train types tab.

on the timetable edit (F4) select "train types" tab then edit one of the units/train types (I selected 8/321, as that was the train type used for 2C24-1) and select the "dwell times" tab under that for "terminate forward" you should see 00:06:00.





I know train description says 8/317 but under train characteristics it says 8/321, how ever I looked and 8/317 still has the 00:06:00 dwell time, all train types have a dwell time in.

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Last edited: 16/07/2017 at 22:59 by mark265
Reason: Added info

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Delayed train not leaving Letchwoth 16/07/2017 at 23:35 #96444
bugsy
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mark265 in post 96442 said:
The dwell times I am talking about is set by the train type and not the timetable under the train types tab.

I know train description says 8/317 but under train characteristics it says 8/321, how ever I looked and 8/317 still has the 00:06:00 dwell time, all train types have a dwell time in.
Peter Bennet in post 96440 said:


Have you had a look at the dwell times under the generic train type data?

Peter
Now I am beginning to understand what's happened and why. I think that perhaps I should have a little dig around to get a better understanding of how everything works.
Presumably, I am stuck with these dwell times and will just have to accept the delays. Still, I don't really mind. Once I have got to the end of this particular scenario some time after midnight, I'll be laoding an earlier save and see if I can make a better job of routing trains and avoid some of the delays, although they add to the interest, especially when faced with platform conflicts at Kings Cross!

All good fun though.

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Delayed train not leaving Letchwoth 16/07/2017 at 23:49 #96445
mark265
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The dwell times are intended to add more realism to the timetable (although not set in every timetable) as just about all trains have minimum turn around times and time taken for attach and detach of loco/units, however simsig does not replicate these very well, for example a train arrives at king's cross very late as soon as it stops the next working is given the TRTS about 10 seconds later, the application of the dwell times allows you to put in a minumum turn around time (or other type of action such as join or detach) to enable a more realistic timetable.
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Delayed train not leaving Letchwoth 17/07/2017 at 00:37 #96446
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Deleted. Didn't add to the conversation.
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Last edited: 17/07/2017 at 00:38 by postal
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Delayed train not leaving Letchwoth 17/07/2017 at 06:50 #96447
Peter Bennet
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On the specific train; according to Realtimetrains it's booked a 6 minute stop but that's different to the minimum dwell time. This is a function of how quickly they can detach the rear unit, close the internal doors (if 317 or 387) and the rear unit checked as being empty. I suggest 6 minutes is rather generous.

Peter

If you've played all the games they play; You played them yesterday:; Walkaway, walkaway; If you've been, where they want to go; Seen all they got to show; Just walkaway, walkaway, walkaway.
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Delayed train not leaving Letchwoth 17/07/2017 at 10:26 #96449
bugsy
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mark265 in post 96442 said:
The dwell times I am talking about is set by the train type and not the timetable under the train types tab.

Yes, I see what you mean.
Presumably all this stuff is for the TT writers/developers and not something that can or should be tampered with by ordinary SimSig users.

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Delayed train not leaving Letchwoth 17/07/2017 at 13:36 #96451
postal
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bugsy in post 96449 said:
mark265 in post 96442 said:
The dwell times I am talking about is set by the train type and not the timetable under the train types tab.

Yes, I see what you mean.
Presumably all this stuff is for the TT writers/developers and not something that can or should be tampered with by ordinary SimSig users.
You can do what you like with it. The TT writer may have put in some bespoke dwell times based on personal experience or guesswork or just relied on the SimSig default times for the various activities. What you choose to do is entirely up to you.

"I believe that every human has a finite number of heart-beats. I don't intend to waste any of mine running around doing exercises." - Edwin Eugene (Buzz) Aldrin Jr. b. 20/02/30, Fighter Pilot and Astronaut.
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Delayed train not leaving Letchwoth 17/07/2017 at 15:34 #96453
bugsy
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[/quote]

You can do what you like with it. The TT writer may have put in some bespoke dwell times based on personal experience or guesswork or just relied on the SimSig default times for the various activities. What you choose to do is entirely up to you.[/quote]

Interesting. I might well alter some of these times then, if I find it necessary that is.

Thanks for the info everyone.

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Delayed train not leaving Letchwoth 17/07/2017 at 19:02 #96458
Peter Bennet
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There are two minimum stopping times that are hard coded.

Stopping time for trains when there is no separate arrival and departure times, defaults to 35 seconds.
Stopping time for late trains, defaults to 25 seconds.

Peter

If you've played all the games they play; You played them yesterday:; Walkaway, walkaway; If you've been, where they want to go; Seen all they got to show; Just walkaway, walkaway, walkaway.
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Delayed train not leaving Letchwoth 17/07/2017 at 19:53 #96459
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Peter Bennet in post 96458 said:
There are two minimum stopping times that are hard coded.

Stoppingdwell time for trains when there is no separate arrival and departure times, defaults to 35 seconds.
Stoppingdwell time for late trains, defaults to 25 seconds.

Peter
Pedantic correction for you

I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either.
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Delayed train not leaving Letchwoth 17/07/2017 at 20:16 #96461
bugsy
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On second thoughts, I think that I will just leave these times as they are and just get on with regulating the trains!
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Delayed train not leaving Letchwoth 17/07/2017 at 21:43 #96463
Peter Bennet
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AndyG in post 96459 said:
Peter Bennet in post 96458 said:
There are two minimum stopping times that are hard coded.

Stoppingdwell time for trains when there is no separate arrival and departure times, defaults to 35 seconds.
Stoppingdwell time for late trains, defaults to 25 seconds.

Peter
Pedantic correction for you
It's a direct quote from the manual
Peter

If you've played all the games they play; You played them yesterday:; Walkaway, walkaway; If you've been, where they want to go; Seen all they got to show; Just walkaway, walkaway, walkaway.
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Delayed train not leaving Letchwoth 19/07/2017 at 10:30 #96488
Giantray
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BarryM in post 96441 said:


Logistically good questions Peter. Sorry, I did not load the ssg. If that's the case, then 2C24-2 waits and 2C26 waits unless you terminate 2C24 and have 2C26 takes the passengers onwards. Or then again combine the 2/317s at Baldock.

Barry
I am interested in how you would combine 2x 317s at Baldock? There are no call-on/shunt signals and permissive working is not authorised at Baldock.

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Delayed train not leaving Letchwoth 19/07/2017 at 23:36 #96505
BarryM
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Giantray in post 96488 said:
BarryM in post 96441 said:


Logistically good questions Peter. Sorry, I did not load the ssg. If that's the case, then 2C24-2 waits and 2C26 waits unless you terminate 2C24 and have 2C26 takes the passengers onwards. Or then again combine the 2/317s at Baldock.

Barry
I am interested in how you would combine 2x 317s at Baldock? There are no call-on/shunt signals and permissive working is not authorised at Baldock.
Oh!

Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
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Delayed train not leaving Letchwoth 27/07/2017 at 16:28 #97653
clive
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mark265 in post 96445 said:
The dwell times are intended to add more realism to the timetable (although not set in every timetable) as just about all trains have minimum turn around times and time taken for attach and detach of loco/units, however simsig does not replicate these very well, for example a train arrives at king's cross very late as soon as it stops the next working is given the TRTS about 10 seconds later,
If the dwell time is zero, trains take a length of time to reverse based on how long it takes to walk from one end to the other.

I'm puzzled by the King's Cross example you give. Can you create a saved game that shows it, preferable with no other trains and no dwell times?

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Delayed train not leaving Letchwoth 27/07/2017 at 16:55 #97656
mark265
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clive in post 97653 said:
mark265 in post 96445 said:
The dwell times are intended to add more realism to the timetable (although not set in every timetable) as just about all trains have minimum turn around times and time taken for attach and detach of loco/units, however simsig does not replicate these very well, for example a train arrives at king's cross very late as soon as it stops the next working is given the TRTS about 10 seconds later,
If the dwell time is zero, trains take a length of time to reverse based on how long it takes to walk from one end to the other.

I'm puzzled by the King's Cross example you give. Can you create a saved game that shows it, preferable with no other trains and no dwell times?
Next time I play a sim will try and get a save

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Delayed train not leaving Letchwoth 27/07/2017 at 19:37 #97660
Jan
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clive in post 97653 said:
mark265 in post 96445 said:
The dwell times are intended to add more realism to the timetable (although not set in every timetable) as just about all trains have minimum turn around times and time taken for attach and detach of loco/units, however simsig does not replicate these very well, for example a train arrives at king's cross very late as soon as it stops the next working is given the TRTS about 10 seconds later,
If the dwell time is zero, trains take a length of time to reverse based on how long it takes to walk from one end to the other.

I'm puzzled by the King's Cross example you give. Can you create a saved game that shows it, preferable with no other trains and no dwell times?
With a couple of test timetables (see attachements), I'm not seeing trains reversing quite as fast (although I feel like I've noticed something similar in Edge Hill), but there's still something strange going on:
Testing with station reverse, the walking speed given in #15591 (1.5 m/s) still seems to apply - a 16 car train (316 m) took about 3½ minutes before departing again. The minimum time however seems to have increased over the course of time. When I originally wrote issue #14865 it was 30 s, the next time I tried it was 1 minute, and now it seems like even a four car train takes a minimum of 2 min to reverse [1].

The strange thing however is that this doesn't seem to apply in the terminate reverse case - here, all trains reversed in about 2½ minutes, no matter their length.

[1] I know that Geoff said at one point that given the availability of the dwell time feature, he didn't feel the need to further tweak the default values, but given that there are still lots of timetables without dwell times floating around maybe it would still be a good idea? Personally, I'd slightly lower the walking speed (maybe 1.2 - 1.3 m/s) and instead of a minimum reversing time, I'd add a fixed time component of one or two minutes to nominally account for shutting down one cab and opening up the other cab.

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Last edited: 27/07/2017 at 19:37 by Jan
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