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Sheffield 1986

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Sheffield 1986 31/12/2009 at 18:05 #5453
Noisynoel
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Ok. Worth noting though that if you put the activities in order on a through train, then they will only happen in that order.
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Sheffield 1986 31/12/2009 at 18:14 #5454
Forest Pines
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I thought that was the case, but came up against a situation where they didn't happen in order. Specifically, it was a case where the station pilot attaches some vans to the back of a train, then detaches. The obvious: "J 5Z00; DR 0Z00" didn't work, because it would do the DR without waiting for the J! I had to split it into two services with "J N" for the first and "DR" for the second, to get it properly into shape.
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Sheffield 1986 31/12/2009 at 18:48 #5455
Noisynoel
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Hmmm, don't think that's supposed to happen!
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Sheffield 1986 31/12/2009 at 19:58 #5459
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Forest Pines, I'm a bit of a stickler for getting the train formations correct when compiling a timetable. Now I did run into problems with one mail train due to it being over length at Sheffield. Noel kindly e-mailed me the platform lengths for Sheffield & I subsequently altered the length of the mail train concerned. As you know the timing loads at the front of the WTTs are based on a type 4 diesel (e.g. Cl.45 or Cl.47) on that basis I write my timetables with the following coach/van loadings:
D35 = 1 van/coach
D70 = 2
D105 = 3
D140 = 4
D175 = 5
D210 = 6
D245 - 7
D280 = 8
D315 = 9
D350 = 10
D385 = 11
D420 = 12
D455 = 13
D490 = 14
D525 = 15
D560 = 16
D595 = 17
D595 is the highest I've seen on the WTTs I own. I'm sure back in 1983/84 there were some van trains running about with up to 17 vans on. The trouble is that a couple of the trains in my section 'YE' are actually timed as D595, but the platforms at Sheffield are too short........ The only thing I can think of & NoisyNoel may know the answer to this is that the train maybe conveying CCTs which were SR 2 axle parcel vans. In this case the number of vehicles may well = to 17, but they are much short. Parcel vans such as GUVs, BGs etc are similar in length to Mk.1s = 17m, so you can calculate the length of each train separately. A Cl.47 = 19m, Cl.45/46 = 21m. When I am writing my timetable each train is a separate entry in the make up of it as they all vary in length due to different lengths of locos & or wagons. You take a standard MGR set of 36 HAAs + 1xCl.56 or Cl.58 & the train length = 397m. In my section YJ for freight train services 4M65 has actually got a written comment in its timings saying 'This train conveys 20 vehicles' therefore the length of a freightliner flat wagon according to 'The Working Manual for Rail Staff - Freight Train Operations' is 20.5m. As this train was usually worked by a Cl.45/0(which is 21m) you can work out the total length for that train which is 431m. However when you are working out timing loads for passenger/parcels train if you decide to use a lower Class of loco instead of a type 4, such as a type 2 (Cl.25 or Cl.31) or a type 3 (Cl.37) then obviously what the Dxxx number is equal to in a type 4 will be less in the type 3 or 3 power range. EG D315 for a Cl.45 or Cl.47 would equal 9 vans/coaches, it could be D350 for a type 3 & D385 for a type 2 loco for 9 vans/coaches. Freight tran loading are a different kettle of fish. When I worked in the TOPS office at Whitemoor Marshalling yard in 1988 the Class 6 loadings from Whitemoor to Doncaster via the ECML were as follows:-
2xCl.20 = 990 tonnes trailing
1xCl.31 = 750 tonnes
1xCl.37 = 850 tonnes
1xCl.47 = 1340 tonnes
Yet if the train was being worked by 2xCl.37s the train was authorised to carry 1700 tonnes which was double the single Cl.37 load, you were only authorised to convey the maximum of the biggest load for a single Cl. of loco, in this case 1xCl.47 which was 1340 tonnes trailing. Not easy to understand if you don't have a railway operations back-ground.

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Sheffield 1986 31/12/2009 at 22:08 #5466
Jsun
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Great timetable, so far the only issues I've had are passenger trains (1M01) arriving on panel up to 1 hour early. I'm not sure what could be done about that however.
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Sheffield 1986 01/01/2010 at 17:52 #5472
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Forest Pines, further to my earlier post re timing loads, I came across today whilst entering data into my 1983/84 Sheffield timetable of a train with the timing load in the WTT of D770. This has been the highest so far. The train concerned is 9E03 0545 MO Old Oak Common - York Yard North & the return working 9V06 MO Clifton CS - Old Oak Common is also shown as D770. This would mean the train could convey up to 22 coaches with a Cl.45 or Cl.47 loco. It would be interesting to see if anyone comes across a larger timing load than that.
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Sheffield 1986 09/01/2010 at 13:11 #5647
Javelin395
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Great timetable !! Although older timetables tend to be less intensive than modern ones I love all the shunt moves associated with loco changes. It's also interesting to have a timetable that takes advantage of the 1980s and modern era feature.

Along with other users I've encountered some trains entering unusually early. As an example, 2C47 entered early then waits for time at Conisbrough and thereby delays 2C45 (which was running to schedule). Also had a class 2 enter early then wait for time at Edale thus delaying a class 1 which was running to time (can't remember exact trains). Have also had various freights enter early and then hold up passenger services but I know this happens on other sims (e.g SwinDid). Perhaps this is another case of the need for adjoining boxes to call ahead with regard early running services as mentioned by other users and featured in other sims?

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Sheffield 1986 09/01/2010 at 16:30 #5659
Forest Pines
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Thank you!

It was mentioned elsewhere recently that when a train enters early it's actually running late by a negative amount of time. So, you can make it less likely to happen by adjusting the train delay probability sliders on the options dialogue.

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Sheffield 1986 09/01/2010 at 17:27 #5662
AndyG
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Had 2E38 enter before 0950, although not due to enter untill 1036 (reporting 56 early), now stopped/sitting at Edale for due time and blocking line.
This is on easy setting, with delay probability and amount virtually zero - sliders just a tad off the minimum.

I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either.
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Sheffield 1986 10/01/2010 at 02:26 #5672
Jsun
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Also it seems like the locals from Grindleford area are timed 3 minutes slower than they can run. I did a test and routed 3 locals on all greens from the Edale fringe and all of them managed to lose 3-5 minutes it seems to be at Grindleford is where the lateness starts.
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Sheffield 1986 10/01/2010 at 04:01 #5674
AndyG
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Noticed that a lot of the passenger train types have acc/braking set to freight types eg class 142 and DL+nn carriages
I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either.
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Sheffield 1986 10/01/2010 at 11:36 #5677
Adrian the Rock
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AndyG said:
Had 2E38 enter before 0950, although not due to enter untill 1036 (reporting 56 early), now stopped/sitting at Edale for due time and blocking line...

I had exactly the same happen to me with one of the Hope Valley stoppers. Can't remember now whether it was this train or a similar one.

When I'm playing a new sim or TT, I normally select Easy mode but then manually increase the Train Delay Probability and Amount so I do get a handful of early/late trains. Judging from the slider positions I'd say I've got these set to about 10% and 25% respectively.

But I've also noticed one or two other time-related oddities while running this sim. For example most trains don't wait the usual 2 mins at red signals before phoning in, and on several occasions I've told drivers to wait 15 mins but could have sworn they called back much sooner than then.

On a definitely TT-related point, I note that 5M602 is set to join 0Z004 in US1. I think this should be 0Z005, because 0Z004 shunts to the centre siding first and then becomes 0Z005. Also, 0Z005 does have the join to 5M602 in its TT, 0Z004 doesn't.

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Sheffield 1986 10/01/2010 at 14:52 #5684
Forest Pines
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The latter does sound like it might be a bug - I'll check up on that.

The acceleration and braking for all the train types were based on those already in other people's timetables, although I couldn't tell you which ones - I copied from whatever sim-supplied timetables had the right types of train in. Generally, longer loco-hauled trains will accelerate and brake slower, and 1st-gen DMUs are "very slow".

I started developing the timetable on earlier versions of Sheffield - initially, before the Hope Valley line was simulated. The first timings I used for the Hope Valley line were done by creating a test timetable and measuring how long it took for each type of train to get from Chinley to Dore, in the first version of Sheffield I had access to which had the Hope Valley line in it. So, with that version of Sheffield, with no delays the trains were always exactly on time. However, in later releases of Sheffield - including the current one - trains took rather longer on the Hope Valley line than in earlier releases, and all trains that entered at Chinley reached Sheffield considerably behind time. Because of that, one of the last things I did before releasing the timetable was to edit all the Hope Valley timings. The released timetable uses Hope Valley timings based on the 1989 public timetable, with the timing for Class 1 trains based on the 1 daily service which in 1989 stopped at Stockport and Chinley then ran fast to Sheffield. Dore-Sheffield times are based on the WTT. One of the convenient things about the 1989 public timetable is that it has a little "S" flag to identify trains booked for Sprinter units! The same public timetable was used for timings between Nunnery ML Jn and Kiveton.

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Sheffield 1986 12/01/2010 at 21:35 #5772
moonraker
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I believe it's the Train Type acceleration characteristics that are wrong. DMU's should be set to Medium (Inter City), All Loco + Coaches should also be set to this. Pacers/Sprinters should be set to High (Commuter). Nothing passenger wise should be set to Freight acceleration. Then it's just a matter of setting the right Freight acceleration to the right Freight train types which might need tweaking here and there.
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Sheffield 1986 13/01/2010 at 08:54 #5784
Forest Pines
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There's nothing wrong, at all, with the acceleration characteristics. They're consistent with all the other 1980s timetables I've looked at in detail - particular, the excellent 1985 timetables supplied with Kings Cross, Bristol, Gloucester etc, which all have Very Low acceleration for most 1st-generation DMU types, and Low or Very Low acceleration for all loco-hauled passenger services longer than 6 coaches.

Moreover, the train timings seem to be spot on for the rest of the sim - the only exception is the Hope Valley line. I suspect the problem is nothing more than: the 1989 public timetable is not a good source of information for 1986 train timings on the Hope Valley. Which is unfortunate, because the timings on the Worksop line, also mostly derived from the 1989 public timetable, are fine.

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Sheffield 1986 13/01/2010 at 08:58 #5785
Noisynoel
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It's worth noting that a similar problem has been raised with my 2009 timetables in that the cl142's do not appear to keep time on the Hope Valley, whilst they are fine everywhere else & on other sims, eg Exeter. This would hint that there is a slight problem in the sim itself. However, it does make it more interesing as you need to recover the late running!
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Sheffield 1986 13/01/2010 at 09:03 #5786
Forest Pines
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You may well be right there. Is the difference because gradient code was introduced?
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Sheffield 1986 13/01/2010 at 10:20 #5788
moonraker
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I drove First Generation DMU's and believe me they're not that slow. Certainly not as slow as a Freight Train.
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Sheffield 1986 13/01/2010 at 13:39 #5794
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I too have driven 1st generation DMUs & I agree with Moonraker that they are not that slow. I am currently writing my 1983-1984 Sheffield timetable I set the DMUs to High speed acceleration(Commuter). Loco hauled services & HSTs to Inter-City. Now with freights it is slightly different. Classes 7, 8 & 9 I've set to very slow & Class 4 & 6 to Standard. H owever there are some anomalises to contend with. If a trthe train could consist ain is Class 8 = 35mph you would be quite right to set the variable to very slow, however the train could consist of empty wagons & also be worked by a high powered loco such as a type 4 or 5, in which case the acceleration to 35mph could equal that of a loco hauled Class acceleration. I watched in during my railway career when they have been shunting at Whitemoor yard & Bescot with Cl.08 shunters, even though they have a maximum speed of 15mph, they can get to that speed within seconds, even when they are pulling wagons, in which case you could set the acceleration speed to Standard Freight. I have set in my Sheffield 1983-84 timetable some lower class freight trains to standard as opposed to very slow when the train being hauled is empty instead of loaded. Noel if you read this, anychance you can get me the length limit for 'DSS' at Sheffield station, many thanks.
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Sheffield 1986 06/02/2010 at 11:13 #6466
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Forest Pines, I was talking to a friend of mine who was a driver based at Worksop, & he had started on the footplate in 1955 at Barrow Hill. He now does driving as & when required at Barrow Hill Roundhouse. He was telling me that they had 3 sets of men on duty at Worksop on nights to ferry locos to either Tinsley TMD or Shirebrook TMD for fuel & or maintenance. He also used to drive DMUs , when Worksop had passenger turns. I was asking him about the fuelling of DMUs at Tinsley. He said in all the years he worked into Tinsley he never saw DMUs fuelling there. Just to make sure he is going to ask some fitters at Barrow Hill Roundhouse who are ex Tinsley TMD fitters about this. He told me that most of the time they took locos onto the 2 road servicing shed in Tinsley yard for fuel. The only time they went to the 'Top Shed' as he called it was when the locos were required for repairs or exams. He never saw DMUs fuelling there, in his experience Tinsley was too busy dealing with locosas he reckoned there would be vetween 40 - 50 locos passing through the servicing shed at Tinsley tard. The fuelling points at Tinsley TMD were at each end of the shed roads at Tinsley TMD & another fueling point on one side of the TMD (left hand side if lokking from Treeton Jn towards Shepcote Lane Jn). There was a team of Tinsley fitters on nights who used to go to Sheffield Midland station for fuelling of DMUs there. The fuel point at Sheffield Midland has been there quite some time. I've got a copy of 1981-1982, 1982-1983 & 1983-1984 Section YE WTT for passenger & parcels train services & there aren't any EXS moves in any of them between Sheffield Midland station & Tinsley. I will let you know at some point next week what he has found out. Like I said before this has fascinated me ever since you first mentioned it as I would have suspected Tinsley like Toton would have been too busy & DMUs take up more room than single locos. Interesting nonetheless.
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Sheffield 1986 11/02/2010 at 14:09 #6609
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Forest Pines, I stand corrected. I was speaking earlier in the week to a friend of mine who was a guard at Worksop & he confirms what you say about the fuelling of DMUs at Tinsley. He said it only happened on nights & it took place at the 2 road servicing shed in the yard & not Tinsley TMD. So that solves that mystery for me now. I'll have to find out how many units they fuelled on nights, as this may well lead to alterations to my 1983-84 & my 1981-82 timetables for Sheffield.
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Sheffield 1986 11/02/2010 at 19:57 #6613
ozzyd9001
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hows the new timetables coming chaps. carnt wait. am enjoying the 86 tt very much. love all the shunting.
will love to test them if you so wish??

yours

paul

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Sheffield 1986 12/02/2010 at 11:47 #6622
Forest Pines
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I've not had any chance lately to work either on updates to the 1986 Sheffield, or to the Swindon/Westbury timetables I've started to look at.

There are several movements per night between Sheffield and Tinsley in the 1986 timetable, but it's not clear how many units each might have consisted of. The consists in my timetable, therefore, are "convenient" ones. For example: there's one DMU(A) return trip from Sheffield to Tinsley and back every night, but, from the balance of stock, two DMU(A) units (150s, I assume) berthed at Sheffield overnight. So I set the Sheffield-Tinsley DMU(A) workings to be a pair of units, so I didn't have to worry about finding space for them in the station area.

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Sheffield 1986 12/02/2010 at 14:21 #6627
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Paul, my 1983-84 Sheffield timetable is currently with NoisyNoel. Once he has finished with it he will e-mail back to me to do a few more tweaks to it. I would expect it to be released within a week of me getting it back. In the meantime I am currently inputting freight train services into my Sheffield 1981-82 timetable, Passenger & Parcels trains still to do, so don't expect this one to be relased yet, maybe in time for Peterborough meet. Forest Pines, if I add any DMU fuelling moves to my 1983-84 timetable I will send them into Tinsley Yard via TY423(reverse) as the 2 road servicing shed was in the yard as opposed to sending them to Tinsley TMD. However I shall waiting for info to come from some ex-Tinsley fitters who work at Barrow Hill Roundhouse. I wonder whether the reason they never appeared in the WTTs for the area because the moves were 'ad-hoc', although 3 or 4 sets of units may have been sent for fuel. I know from what my friend told me that when Barrow Hill first rcv'd diesel shunters, they had to take them to Darnall TMD for fuel on Saturdays. Barrow Hill had about 6 diesel shunters working in the area way back then.
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Sheffield 1986 05/03/2010 at 14:30 #7097
Javelin395
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I've been noticed an odd problem with train 6E632 at Woodburn Junction (reverse).

On the first occasion 6E632 failed to draw forward until clear of signal W401 and instead fouled the points from Woodburn Junction towards Broughton Lane Junction. Consequently this train was then unable to reverse onto the Up Worksop line. As a workaround I abandoned timetable of 0E63 and sent it towards Nunnery Mainline Junction then abandoned timetable of 6E632 so that I could tell it to shunt forward towards W217. With Woodburn Junction now clear I then reinstated the timetable for 6E632 and sent it towards Worksop. Train 0E63 was then reversed wrong line to W401 and hence signalled towards Tinsley.

As I generally save the game each hour I re-ran this scenario. This time 6E632 drew forward clear of W401 and then divided. With the divide having occured the track circuits then indicated that the train was now fouling Woodburn Junction thus preventing the required reversal as before.

Anyone else seen this?

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