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Peterborough - 1977 timetable, a second update - some questions.

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Peterborough - 1977 timetable, a second update - some questions. 15/08/2017 at 17:55 #101056
VInce
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Hi all,

I'm in the process of a second revamp of Peter Bennet's excellent 1977 timetable after having some e-mail conversations with a good friend of mine who was a driver there in the 70s.

There is also quite a bit of work to do on it, to eliminate unnecessary rules, change the somewhat over-generous dwell times that I used in the first revision and put in some better stock allocations to the passenger trains and then a lot of testing so it will not be released any time soon.

I also need to contact Peter before release to seek his permission - I'll do that if I can get answers to some of the questions I currently have.

I want to put in some trip workings and the following information would be helpful, or at least a link to somewhere where I may find the answer myself.

1) The length of Sandy Up siding and Down siding

2) The length of St. Neots Up siding and Down siding

3) The length of Huntingdon No1 and No2 sidings.

I'm also trying to create a movement to and from the Peterborough Spur, which is the short stub just to the right of the flyash line on the sim. My correspondent's memory is not perhaps as good as it was, but he recollects flyash cripple wagons being shunted into there,

I can set routes from 73 and 71 signal into the spur and the corresponding reverse routes from the spur GPS 68 to Crescent Spur and also to the Flyash line LOS 68.

However, I can't seem to find any route to and from the spur that will validate in a timetable.

Am I missing something?


Vince

I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me
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Peterborough - 1977 timetable, a second update - some questions. 16/08/2017 at 08:51 #101071
BarryM
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The sidings you mention are all off sim. So trains of any length will be accepted.

Barry

Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
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Peterborough - 1977 timetable, a second update - some questions. 16/08/2017 at 10:17 #101076
VInce
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Barry,

Thank you - but.

1) St. Neots US and Sandy US are not off-sim. They are not entry points so trains can't be started from there without having to arrive first. Similarly a train cannot be terminated there without repeated warnings that a forward working is needed, (as you would do with a passenger train in terminating station).

2) I put a test train of 200m length into Sandy US and it did not fit, standing foul of the USL. In fact, it was this that prompted the question. I reduced the length down to 50m and it still stood foul of the USL.

I accept Biggleswade DS is off-sim, as is Huntingdon DS 1 & 2, and St Neots DS.

Does anyone know the answer to the "Peterborough Spur" problem?

Vince

I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me
Last edited: 16/08/2017 at 10:47 by VInce
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Peterborough - 1977 timetable, a second update - some questions. 16/08/2017 at 11:47 #101077
BarryM
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Sorry, my eyes are not treating me correctly!

1. Sandy Down Siding, Sandy Up Siding, St Neots Up Siding and St Neots Down Siding are defined entry points.

You will need to speak to Clive about the Sandy Up Siding entrance length and "Peterborough Spur" problem.

Barry

Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
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Peterborough - 1977 timetable, a second update - some questions. 16/08/2017 at 12:24 #101078
MarkC
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VInce in post 101076 said:
Barry,

Thank you - but.

1) St. Neots US and Sandy US are not off-sim. They are not entry points so trains can't be started from there without having to arrive first. Similarly a train cannot be terminated there without repeated warnings that a forward working is needed, (as you would do with a passenger train in terminating station).

2) I put a test train of 200m length into Sandy US and it did not fit, standing foul of the USL. In fact, it was this that prompted the question. I reduced the length down to 50m and it still stood foul of the USL.

I accept Biggleswade DS is off-sim, as is Huntingdon DS 1 & 2, and St Neots DS.

Does anyone know the answer to the "Peterborough Spur" problem?

Vince
1) have just tested this and St. Neots Up Siding's and Sandy Upsidings do allow entry to sim, I also set trains to arrive at St Neots up siding's and Sandy Up sidings but they do not leave the sim instead they arrive at the siding's and report in F2 Terminated, no more timetable trips

2) My test trains were 200m in length and they did not foul the points for me they went in to the siding's completely.

Added Info
Have attached my Test TT

Further Info
I tested in one era (Original) and now testing in the other (Spalding Bi-Di) and trains arriving at St Neots Up Siding's seem to not arrive or terminate there they hit the buffer stops infact the train does not report in F2 that it has entered St Neots Up Siding's. Sandy results the same as original test Arrive at sandy Up Siding's and reports terminated, no more timetable trips, and has not fouled the points.

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Last edited: 16/08/2017 at 12:50 by MarkC
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Peterborough - 1977 timetable, a second update - some questions. 16/08/2017 at 12:40 #101079
clive
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When I get a moment (unlikely to be today) I'll dig out the sim source and check what it says.
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Peterborough - 1977 timetable, a second update - some questions. 16/08/2017 at 13:26 #101080
MarkC
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VInce in post 101056 said:
I'm also trying to create a movement to and from the Peterborough Spur, which is the short stub just to the right of the flyash line on the sim. My correspondent's memory is not perhaps as good as it was, but he recollects flyash cripple wagons being shunted into there,

I can set routes from 73 and 71 signal into the spur and the corresponding reverse routes from the spur GPS 68 to Crescent Spur and also to the Flyash line LOS 68.

However, I can't seem to find any route to and from the spur that will validate in a timetable.

Am I missing something?


Vince
In attached TT you will find some valid route to and from the spur from the flyash.

but quick run down

trains entering from the spur the next location would be Peterborough Flyash Line (or Peterborough then platform set to FAL)

for trains going to the spur:
Peterborough Flyash line (or Peterborough then platform set to FAL) then next location would be Peterborough Spur (this is a exit point so no train activities such as next train or next location needed, any return working is a New train with entrance set to Peterborough Spur)

Important note

Even tho Peterborough Flyash Line and Peterborough (FAL) are in essance the same spot, to avoid TT errors if you have a join/detach/next train both location must match.

for example if you have a train which in the timetable says

4A00 has location
Peterborough Flyash Line J:0A00

And train 0A00 has
Peterborough (FAL) J:4A00

Will produce message on TT analysis of "Associated train **** is at different location"

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Peterborough - 1977 timetable, a second update - some questions. 16/08/2017 at 13:47 #101081
VInce
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I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me
Last edited: 16/08/2017 at 13:56 by VInce
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Peterborough - 1977 timetable, a second update - some questions. 16/08/2017 at 13:53 #101082
VInce
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mark265 in post 101078 said:
VInce in post 101076 said:
Barry,

Thank you - but.

1) St. Neots US and Sandy US are not off-sim. They are not entry points so trains can't be started from there without having to arrive first. Similarly a train cannot be terminated there without repeated warnings that a forward working is needed, (as you would do with a passenger train in terminating station).

2) I put a test train of 200m length into Sandy US and it did not fit, standing foul of the USL. In fact, it was this that prompted the question. I reduced the length down to 50m and it still stood foul of the USL.

I accept Biggleswade DS is off-sim, as is Huntingdon DS 1 & 2, and St Neots DS.

Does anyone know the answer to the "Peterborough Spur" problem?

Vince
1) have just tested this and St. Neots Up Siding's and Sandy Upsidings do allow entry to sim, I also set trains to arrive at St Neots up siding's and Sandy Up sidings but they do not leave the sim instead they arrive at the siding's and report in F2 Terminated, no more timetable trips

2) My test trains were 200m in length and they did not foul the points for me they went in to the siding's completely.

.

Added Info
Have attached my Test TT

Thank you

Further Info
I tested in one era (Original) and now testing in the other (Spalding Bi-Di) and trains arriving at St Neots Up Siding's seem to not arrive or terminate there they hit the buffer stops infact the train does not report in F2 that it has entered St Neots Up Siding's. Sandy results the same as original test Arrive at sandy Up Siding's and reports terminated, no more timetable trips, and has not fouled the points.
I stand corrected regarding St Neots and Sandy US.

The length issue is an odd one but I'll try it again, but the fact that the train didn't go in was what prompted the original question I'm sure I waited for the train to stop. But I'll give it another go

What was confusing me was that, as you found that when I tried to terminate a train there I was getting the "no more timetabled trips" message which lead me to believe, wrongly as it turned out, that it was an on-sim location.

Thnak you very much for your help with this.

Vince

I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me
Last edited: 16/08/2017 at 13:55 by VInce
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Peterborough - 1977 timetable, a second update - some questions. 16/08/2017 at 13:56 #101083
VInce
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mark265 in post 101080 said:
VInce in post 101056 said:
I'm also trying to create a movement to and from the Peterborough Spur, which is the short stub just to the right of the flyash line on the sim. My correspondent's memory is not perhaps as good as it was, but he recollects flyash cripple wagons being shunted into there,

I can set routes from 73 and 71 signal into the spur and the corresponding reverse routes from the spur GPS 68 to Crescent Spur and also to the Flyash line LOS 68.

However, I can't seem to find any route to and from the spur that will validate in a timetable.

Am I missing something?


Vince
In attached TT you will find some valid route to and from the spur from the flyash.

but quick run down

trains entering from the spur the next location would be Peterborough Flyash Line (or Peterborough then platform set to FAL)

for trains going to the spur:
Peterborough Flyash line (or Peterborough then platform set to FAL) then next location would be Peterborough Spur (this is a exit point so no train activities such as next train or next location needed, any return working is a New train with entrance set to Peterborough Spur)

Important note

Even tho Peterborough Flyash Line and Peterborough (FAL) are in essance the same spot, to avoid TT errors if you have a join/detach/next train both location must match.

for example if you have a train which in the timetable says

4A00 has location
Peterborough Flyash Line J:0A00

And train 0A00 has
Peterborough (FAL) J:4A00

Will produce message on TT analysis of "Associated train **** is at different location"
Mark,

That's very helpful - thank you very much, I'll try and incorporate something into a timetable.

Vince

I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me
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Peterborough - 1977 timetable, a second update - some questions. 16/08/2017 at 13:58 #101084
MarkC
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VInce in post 101081 said:
Mark,

That's very helpful - thank you very much, I'll try and incorporate something into a timetable.

Vince
You're welcome, the valid options are from sig 73, from sig 71 the following would apply if train is coming in via goods loop the next location would be peterborough spur,

example

Peterborough (GL)
Peterborough Spur


If wanting to come from Crescent siding's if entering from there the entry point would be P'boro Crescent Siding's

with the following on location list
P'boro Crescent Spur
Peterborough Spur

Last edited: 16/08/2017 at 13:58 by MarkC
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Peterborough - 1977 timetable, a second update - some questions. 17/08/2017 at 19:17 #101095
clive
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Okay, some answers at last. This is all from the current data.

Sandy Up Siding: 237m. It's also an entry point, but I'm not sure why. Perhaps that predates seeding.
Sandy Down Yard is more complicated. From signal 8 to signal 13 is 185m. Trains exit with the hand points reversed but enter between 8 and 13. Hmm, I'm not sure why it's done like that; that may be a bug.
St.Neots Up Siding: 420m. Again, also an entry point.
St.Neots Down Siding: exit point and, therefore, also an entry point.
Both Huntingdon sidings are exit points and, therefore, entry points.

Peterborough Spur is also an exit point (because it leads to sidings). So you need two separate timetables for the train and rules to link them. Valid previous and next (after entry) locations for the spur are Crescent Spur, Peterborough 799/800, Flyash Line, or Peterborough station with platform set to GL or FAL.

Mark: I can't see anything special about St.Neots Up Siding that would make it behave the way you describe. I haven't tried it myself yet.

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Peterborough - 1977 timetable, a second update - some questions. 17/08/2017 at 19:45 #101096
MarkC
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clive in post 101095 said:
Okay, some answers at last. This is all from the current data.

Sandy Up Siding: 237m. It's also an entry point, but I'm not sure why. Perhaps that predates seeding.
Sandy Down Yard is more complicated. From signal 8 to signal 13 is 185m. Trains exit with the hand points reversed but enter between 8 and 13. Hmm, I'm not sure why it's done like that; that may be a bug.
St.Neots Up Siding: 420m. Again, also an entry point.
St.Neots Down Siding: exit point and, therefore, also an entry point.
Both Huntingdon sidings are exit points and, therefore, entry points.

Peterborough Spur is also an exit point (because it leads to sidings). So you need two separate timetables for the train and rules to link them. Valid previous and next (after entry) locations for the spur are Crescent Spur, Peterborough 799/800, Flyash Line, or Peterborough station with platform set to GL or FAL.

Mark: I can't see anything special about St.Neots Up Siding that would make it behave the way you describe. I haven't tried it myself yet.
I am currently re-running again, and a correction on my first post train arrives at St Neots US and I got a report of "At Buffer Stop" in F2 (Running in original Era) and not reporting having arrived at/in St Neots US.

Will post a save shortly for you clive.

Save game added, 4Z01 just arrived at St. Neots US and showing in F2 At Buffer stop and reports location at Little Barford

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Peterborough - 1977 timetable, a second update - some questions. 18/08/2017 at 00:31 #101098
VInce
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I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me
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Peterborough - 1977 timetable, a second update - some questions. 18/08/2017 at 00:32 #101099
VInce
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clive in post 101095 said:
Okay, some answers at last. This is all from the current data.

Sandy Up Siding: 237m. It's also an entry point, but I'm not sure why. Perhaps that predates seeding.
Sandy Down Yard is more complicated. From signal 8 to signal 13 is 185m. Trains exit with the hand points reversed but enter between 8 and 13. Hmm, I'm not sure why it's done like that; that may be a bug.
St.Neots Up Siding: 420m. Again, also an entry point.
St.Neots Down Siding: exit point and, therefore, also an entry point.
Both Huntingdon sidings are exit points and, therefore, entry points.

Peterborough Spur is also an exit point (because it leads to sidings). So you need two separate timetables for the train and rules to link them. Valid previous and next (after entry) locations for the spur are Crescent Spur, Peterborough 799/800, Flyash Line, or Peterborough station with platform set to GL or FAL.

Mark: I can't see anything special about St.Neots Up Siding that would make it behave the way you describe. I haven't tried it myself yet.
So grateful for this - thanks, it really helps and I can now do some trip working based on this.

In further testing tonight, I've discovered that there is an issue when leaving the "Peterborough Spur" onto an occupied Flyash line. A route cannot be set and a "sub-route locked" message is given. This is required after a move from the Flyash line with a defective wagon, which is (in my imagination anyway) shunted to one of the sidings off the spur and detached, before the rest of the train returns to the Flyash line.

There is long-winded work around - by routing the movement from the "Peterborough Spur" to "Crescent Spur" (reverse) then to Peterborough N DS (reverse) and then back on the remainder of the train.

I've done a bit of research on this and it appears that that this happens because the the route from the Peterborough Spur is not permissive.

Is that correct or am I barking up the wrong tree once again?

Vince

I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me
Last edited: 18/08/2017 at 00:43 by VInce
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Peterborough - 1977 timetable, a second update - some questions. 18/08/2017 at 10:37 #101101
clive
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mark265 in post 101096 said:

Save game added, 4Z01 just arrived at St. Neots US and showing in F2 At Buffer stop and reports location at Little Barford
You've got the Up Siding as a passing point!

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Peterborough - 1977 timetable, a second update - some questions. 18/08/2017 at 11:46 #101102
MarkC
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clive in post 101101 said:
mark265 in post 101096 said:

Save game added, 4Z01 just arrived at St. Neots US and showing in F2 At Buffer stop and reports location at Little Barford
You've got the Up Siding as a passing point!
ah ok, I must of missed that, I just cannot remember setting it as such.

just re-done with passing point unchecked, result as my original post "Terminated, no more timetabled trips.

Last edited: 18/08/2017 at 11:51 by MarkC
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