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Peterborough 1977 - a new version.

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Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 22/08/2017 at 13:15 #101187
VInce
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Hi all,

Peter Bennet's excellent 1977 timetable for Peterborough was revised by myself and re-issued as Version 4.1 a few months ago.

Those that have used this timetable know, through no fault of myself or Peter's excessive early running occurs on most ECML trains. I'm not sure why this happens, it may be just that the sim in designed for a modern era and does not translate the lower speeds of trains in that era particularly well. I'm sure someone will know and let me know.

I have revised that version but it comes with a big caveat. The new Version 4.3 is very far removed from Peter's original and thus will NOT chain with adjacent simulations, but it works well as a stand-alone timetable and is operable by a single person.

I have addressed the early running issue by using test timetables for each speed of train featured in the timetable (except 15mph), i.e. 100, 95, 90, 75, 45 and 35mph to produce simulation point to point timings as opposed to the WTT timings which were previously used. Thus this timetable is not to be considered as a minute-by-minute accurate representation of a Friday in July 1977 but, having said that it plays very well and is a real challenge since all passenger trains now run virtually on time and any unintended adverse signals will cause noticeable delay.

Needless to say, this timetable should be run with the sim in "original layout".

Changes made in this version:-

1) The test train timetable data has been applied in two different ways.

a) Freight trains : The only timings to have been tweaked are the entrance/first timing point and last timing point/exit. In between no alterations have taken place and freight trains can run very early and very late just like they always did in 1977 (I know, I was there!)

2) Peterborough is the hub and station timings there have not been altered. The test data was used to back-time northwards and southwards (and east to west for that matter) from Peterborough meaning a few timings at Huntingdon have been adjusted a few minutes. That, with some minor adjustment to "engineering/pathing" allowances means that trains will generally not run more than a couple of minutes early anywhere in their journey. This was an exceedingly long and tedious task involving around 400 passenger and ECS trains and took a long while to accomplish.

2) Trip Working

With great thanks for a good friend of mine (a driver at Peterborough in the 70s) for supplying anecdotal data regarding trip working in the Peterborough area, I have added a number of trips intended to service all sidings on the sim. As those who were around in that era will know, trip workings were only ever given the barest of timetables, often just a departure time. In the spirit of this, the trip workings included in this timetable have not been timed beyond giving them a departure time meaning the user will have to use a measure of skill in mixing in 35mph trains with 100mph trains.

All trips are recognisable by the T in their reporting number i.e. 8T16

For those who use ARS, all of these un-timed trips MUST run in non-ARS mode. ARS does not appear to like a lack of timings and starts to behave oddly at locations that are in the trips timetable but a very long way away!

3) One flyash train detaches a defective wagon into the "Peterborough Spur" and then returns to reform its train. Due to a sim limitation it cannot return directly to its train (sub-route locked in opposite direction) so the returning train has to be routed via Crescent Spur, North DS and thence back onto the train.

A trip working will arrive later from Crescent and remove the defective wagon to Crescent Sidings.

4) A few cosmetic changes - all relief trains and associated empty stock movements have been renumbered into the xGxx for trains running wholly within the ER and xZxx for inter-regional trains. Additionally anecdotal information on stock formation on both passenger and freight trains has been included.

5) Following some comments made to me after the release of 4.1, P4 has again become the platform of choice for northbound ECML trains. It all fits, but platforming on the 4/5 side is very tight and care must be exercised in ensuring all trains are platformed in the correct order. This is especially true between 1700 and 2100 where I would strongly advise the user to manually operate the area from Holme to Werrington. If used, ARS will make some very odd preferences and decisions and you will end up in a very big mess.

6) All "named" trains are bonus trains.

As a number of people told me and contrary to my own belief, the Spalding unit was stabled between trips on the north end of P3. It does not go to Nene in this version as it did in Version 4.1.

I hope the new version will be available by the end of the week. I have included some shunt moves and at times they do not behave as they should. I'm trying to resolve this with further testing.

I will advise when it has been uploaded for approval.

With great thanks to Peter Bennet for his original work and his permission to publish this version.

Vince

I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me
Last edited: 22/08/2017 at 20:15 by VInce
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Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 22/08/2017 at 15:22 #101189
jc92
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Are all the linespeeds the same in 1977?
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Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 22/08/2017 at 18:34 #101193
VInce
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Hi,

The oldest sectional appendix I can find online is a 1982 one - that indicates a ruling line speed of 125mph between Kings Cross and Doncaster on the main lines and 75mph mph on the slow lines south of Peterborough. Slow Lines north of Peterborough was 80mph. Fast slow lines crossovers were either 25mph or 45mph depending on location.

The 2016 SA shows main lines 125mph/115mph with slow lines 80mph or 75mph depending on location. Fast/slow crossovers are mostly 40mph

Its not vastly different as you can see so the lower speed of the trains would be the ruling factor in the point to point timings.

Electrification came to this area in the 80s so it is possible that line speed improvements were made before the period of the 1982 Sectional Appendix. If anyone has a 1977 SA and could look this up it would be useful, but it doesn't alter the fact that the ruling factor is the speed of the train, not the track.

Vince

I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me
Last edited: 22/08/2017 at 18:39 by VInce
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Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 23/08/2017 at 01:22 #101196
VInce
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Hi all,

I've had second thoughts about releasing this timetable.

Looking at the response - or rather lack of it - I get the impression this will not be of much interest to many people so I won't upload it.

Its been a lot of fun doing it but very time consuming. I have decided that I'll keep it for my own use but should anyone wish to have a copy please send me a personal mail. I don't expect to get killed in the rush.

Regards

Vince

I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me
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Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 23/08/2017 at 11:40 #101203
Danny252
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There's not really terribly much I'd expect people to say about a timetable that hasn't yet been approved for download...
Last edited: 23/08/2017 at 11:41 by Danny252
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Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 23/08/2017 at 12:23 #101204
Dick
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Danny252 in post 101203 said:
There's not really terribly much I'd expect people to say about a timetable that hasn't yet been approved for download...
Indeed, don't be defeatist Vince, it will have more interest than you think I'm sure.

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Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 23/08/2017 at 14:09 #101206
RainbowNines
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Must say I'd be disappointed if the timetable wasn't released, having followed the various threads about it, and enjoyed the clear amount of care put into in ensuring its accuracy - such TTs are very attractive personally as they can help one feel much more involved with the day's work.

58050's various releases are perfect examples of how popular timetables are when they're heavily researched and highly accurate. The re-release of his Carlisle 79-80 TT is one of the most highly anticipated of the lot, I think.

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Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 23/08/2017 at 14:10 #101207
northroad
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VInce in post 101196 said:
Hi all,

I've had second thoughts about releasing this timetable.

Looking at the response - or rather lack of it - I get the impression this will not be of much interest to many people so I won't upload it.

Its been a lot of fun doing it but very time consuming. I have decided that I'll keep it for my own use but should anyone wish to have a copy please send me a personal mail. I don't expect to get killed in the rush.

Regards

Vince
Don't give up on this Vince. You have done a lot more than I have managed to do so far after numerous attempts to do a timetable. Some of us oldies remember this period and it's variety of traffic compared to that of today.
There is a lot of satisfaction in being able to say I did it. I for one will download it when it' released

Geoff

Never apologise son, it's a sign of weakness (John Wayne)
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Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 23/08/2017 at 14:46 #101208
JamesN
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VInce in post 101196 said:
Hi all,

I've had second thoughts about releasing this timetable.

Looking at the response - or rather lack of it - I get the impression this will not be of much interest to many people so I won't upload it.

Its been a lot of fun doing it but very time consuming. I have decided that I'll keep it for my own use but should anyone wish to have a copy please send me a personal mail. I don't expect to get killed in the rush.

Regards

Vince
No! I feel you should definitely release it - it does sound very intriguing to see and I can tell from your many posts the amount of work you've put in.

As this thread has demonstrated people who are interested aren't necessarily good at sounding enthusiastic about it. Besides you only gave people 12 hours to respond.

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Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 23/08/2017 at 14:59 #101209
VInce
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Hi all,

Thank you for the supportive messages and I'll try to get it released by the end of the week.

Sadly I've had to delete the "shunt moves" at Crescent and Peterborough Up Yard as I cannot get them to work as I believe they should.

They don't seem to adhere to the start and finish times e.g. I had Peterborough yard shunt to only operate 0200 - 0400 but was still getting shunts asked for at 0445 and sometimes a shunt is being asked for before the other one has gone back inside.

All a bit odd.

As regards the accuracy of the timetable, I'm happy that the freight and passenger stock workings are as good as I'm going to get them from 40 years ago. As I said in the preamble the Peterborough Station Times have not been changed, but the trains have been back-timed from there to the north, south east and west in accordance with the test data that I gathered, so that some of the timings are a few minutes different to the WTT timings used by Peter, this included some Huntingdon station times. This successfully limits the early running to a few minutes only here and there, which I believe was more representative of what the situation was then.

I'm having another run through now and barring any major issues cropping up I should be able to declare it fit for purpose tomorrow.

Regards

Vince

I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me
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Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 23/08/2017 at 16:55 #101210
Phil-jmw
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Hi Vince,

This is my first look-in on the forum since before the weekend so have only just seen this thread.

I downloaded and have been running yours and Peter's earlier version of Peterborough 1977 and have thoroughly enjoyed it, especially because of the many shunt moves and the mail/parcels traffic and their attachments/detachments and run-rounds to deal with (I'm sure you recall as I do certain signalmen saying they were "zapping a few spiders" when using the rarely used shunt signals).

If your first effort is anything to go by, the extra trips, regulating and shunting moves in your latest version will be eagerly awaited by many like me who can remember what the job was like before the freight dwindled, the mails and loco-hauled passengers disappeared and we were left with the almost 'straight Up & Down' railway that we see today. I will certainly be downloading it.

Cheerz,

Phil.

PS. I've enjoyed your 'heritage' TT so much it prompted me to download many of the other 70's and 80's TT's available for other sims and I'm thoroughly enjoying them too, for all of the reasons listed above, so I'd just like to say thanks to you Vince, and everyone else who has put in the time and effort to make these TT's available for us to enjoy.

Last edited: 23/08/2017 at 17:06 by Phil-jmw
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Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 23/08/2017 at 17:17 #101211
GeoffM
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VInce in post 101209 said:
Sadly I've had to delete the "shunt moves" at Crescent and Peterborough Up Yard as I cannot get them to work as I believe they should.

They don't seem to adhere to the start and finish times e.g. I had Peterborough yard shunt to only operate 0200 - 0400 but was still getting shunts asked for at 0445 and sometimes a shunt is being asked for before the other one has gone back inside.
I've now fixed this (will be available at the next Loader update). Two bugs - data wasn't being initialised correctly on startup, and the finish time wasn't even checked. Oops. Sorry.

SimSig Boss
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Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 23/08/2017 at 17:18 #101212
58050
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I could Vince go through this timetable & correect all the passenger stock formations as I have a copy of the 1977 ECML Passenger Train Marshalling Book. But unfortunately right now I don't have the time to spend re-doing all the passeenger trains with there exact stock formations. Maybe at a future date I could do this. Glad to see another BR era timetable being well recieved. Keep up the good wotk mate. I shall be resuming work on the Peterborough 1985 timetable within the next week. I'll e-mail you a copy when completed.
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Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 23/08/2017 at 19:31 #101214
HST125Scorton
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I was looking forward to this one been released as I like to oldish timetables going back.. I have a Preston Station 1987 Timetable that I'm hoping to use when a Preston does eventually get released in the future.I enjoyed the one you did a month or so ago and along with 58050 timetables with York is always a pleasure to have these.
Aaron (AJRO)
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Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 24/08/2017 at 07:46 #101217
vloris
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Thanks very much for all the hard work!

Here another vote to please continue and make a release of this timetable, would love to have a go at it!

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Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 24/08/2017 at 08:03 #101219
VInce
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Hi all,

Well, for those that like the shunting, there's a little more in this.

When I started to think about the stock balances, especially NPCCS I began to wonder how the good people of Peterborough got their newspapers. There are two news trains from the Yard, one to Spalding, the other to Grimsby, but no indication of how the vans get there.

My correspondent is a bit hazy on how it all worked - just like me, his memory is perhaps not as sharp as it was. He recollects a shunt from the station bringing the news vans to the yard. Since WTTs didn't show shunts in those days its difficult to work out what happened and there are no dedicated news trains to Peterborough so I've done the following.

The only train that's a candidate to do this would, in my opinion, be 1L00, so for now, and in the absence of anything more definitive, that detaches the news vans off the rear, the loco for the Spalding news picks them up, works them into the yard and detaches the rear five. It then goes forward with the one news van for Spalding as 1D08.

A loco off the shed then goes into the yard and picks up two more vans off the shunt, and goes to Grimsby via Lincoln as 1D09.

The remainder of the vans (3) were the how the people of Peterborough got their newspapers.

I admit its all a bit contrived but, like the platforming, its a best guess solution until we have some more information.

The NPCCS stock cycles back from Grimsby via Lincoln as 2B92 in the evening, with a BSK attached for passenger use. The BSK might be part of the detachment from 1L00 which would make it all rather neat.

The news vans are cycled back to London (Ferme Park) via 5B15 at 1305 from Peterborough which, I'm told, used to load to as many as 14 vehicles with green card passenger vehicles often included in the consist.

I have to go out today and this evening so testing time is somewhat limited, but Friday evening should see it uploaded for approval.

Something I did forget to include in the opening salvo was that wherever possible, I have tried to retain the 3 mins "recovery" time for down trains on the approach to Peterborough - this is an attempt to offset any "waiting platform" issues as a result of transferring trains from P3 to P4 in this version.

Vince

I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me
Last edited: 24/08/2017 at 11:02 by VInce
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Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 24/08/2017 at 09:14 #101220
VInce
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GeoffM in post 101211 said:
VInce in post 101209 said:
Sadly I've had to delete the "shunt moves" at Crescent and Peterborough Up Yard as I cannot get them to work as I believe they should.

They don't seem to adhere to the start and finish times e.g. I had Peterborough yard shunt to only operate 0200 - 0400 but was still getting shunts asked for at 0445 and sometimes a shunt is being asked for before the other one has gone back inside.
I've now fixed this (will be available at the next Loader update). Two bugs - data wasn't being initialised correctly on startup, and the finish time wasn't even checked. Oops. Sorry.
Thanks very much for this - I'm relieved to hear it wasn't user error!

Any idea when the next loader update is due?

Vince

I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me
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Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 24/08/2017 at 09:22 #101221
kbarber
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VInce in post 101209 said:

<snip>
the trains have been back-timed from there to the north, south east and west in accordance with the test data that I gathered, so that some of the timings are a few minutes different to the WTT timings used by Peter, this included some Huntingdon station times. This successfully limits the early running to a few minutes only here and there, which I believe was more representative of what the situation was then.

Vince
So Ken DeAth and David Impey are simulated then LOL

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Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 24/08/2017 at 09:28 #101223
VInce
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kbarber in post 101221 said:
VInce in post 101209 said:

<snip>
the trains have been back-timed from there to the north, south east and west in accordance with the test data that I gathered, so that some of the timings are a few minutes different to the WTT timings used by Peter, this included some Huntingdon station times. This successfully limits the early running to a few minutes only here and there, which I believe was more representative of what the situation was then.

Vince
So Ken DeAth and David Impey are simulated then LOL

I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me
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Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 24/08/2017 at 09:30 #101225
VInce
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VInce in post 101223 said:
kbarber in post 101221 said:
VInce in post 101209 said:

<snip>
the trains have been back-timed from there to the north, south east and west in accordance with the test data that I gathered, so that some of the timings are a few minutes different to the WTT timings used by Peter, this included some Huntingdon station times. This successfully limits the early running to a few minutes only here and there, which I believe was more representative of what the situation was then.

Vince
So Ken DeAth and David Impey are simulated then LOL
Sorry for appearing to be a little slow on the uptake - its my age, you know.

Just who is Ken DeAth and David Impey?

Should I know them?

Vince

I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me
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Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 24/08/2017 at 10:39 #101227
whitetigger
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A bit late to the party but would like to echo all the other voices in here asking for it to be released.

Just by reading the lengthy intro you've written Vince shows your passion for it and I can't wait to try it out.

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Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 24/08/2017 at 13:10 #101229
bossman
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I knew a Ken DeAth, who was i believe a Kings Cross driver, as the head of Ilford Training School when i was there in 1984/85 on my MP12 course. I would imagine he was one and the same.
cliff cook
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Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 24/08/2017 at 16:01 #101231
58050
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I know Ken D'ath from when I was at Liverpool Street RCO (1990-1994). He used to tell me stories from when he was driving Deltics on the ECML when he was a driver at King's Cross. IIRC he lived over Barking way & I've evn seen him on TV channel Yesterday talking about the railways during WW2. Very knowledge chap. He used to come into the control room & chat with us on the Motive Power desks. The last chat I had with him was when he was telling me that several retired drivers were waiting for their compensation claims to go through due to damaged ear drums after driving Deltic locomotives for decades. Anyone whose walked through an engine room without ear defends would be all too aware of that risk.
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Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 24/08/2017 at 17:36 #101232
kbarber
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bossman in post 101229 said:
I knew a Ken DeAth, who was i believe a Kings Cross driver, as the head of Ilford Training School when i was there in 1984/85 on my MP12 course. I would imagine he was one and the same.
That's him. Apparently after the Peterborough remodelling of the early '70s he had an ambition to take a Deltic + 8 from Huntingdon to P'boro pass-to-pass in 8 minutes. Never managed it, but he did manage it in 9. I'll leave interested readers to look up the distances and do the calculations...

David Impey... 'Mad' Impey... another one out of the same mould.

Now you know how the GN did it :-)

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Peterborough 1977 - a new version. 24/08/2017 at 21:46 #101234
Steamer
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kbarber in post 101232 said:
bossman in post 101229 said:
I knew a Ken DeAth, who was i believe a Kings Cross driver, as the head of Ilford Training School when i was there in 1984/85 on my MP12 course. I would imagine he was one and the same.
That's him. Apparently after the Peterborough remodelling of the early '70s he had an ambition to take a Deltic + 8 from Huntingdon to P'boro pass-to-pass in 8 minutes. Never managed it, but he did manage it in 9. I'll leave interested readers to look up the distances and do the calculations...
Huntingdon-> Peterborough is about 17.5 miles; in 9 minutes dead he'd have to average 116 mph. For comparison, 10 minutes would be 105mph, so a pass-to-pass somewhere between 9 and 10 minutes could definitely be done.

8 minutes dead would require 131 mph.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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