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Royston Frieght Depot

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Royston Frieght Depot 14/02/2018 at 04:08 #105909
Soton_Speed
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In mucking about with a new/old timetable for Royston I think I may have found a problem with the depot capacity control for Royston FD. The timetable replicates a Speedlink trip service (6B93) delivering wagons to the Dalgety Siding and then the yard pilot, an 03, shunting them to the Sheriff's Siding.

The sequence of moves is as follows:

1. Portion of 6B93 (9S93) deposits 6 VGAs in Dalgety siding.

2. Loco (0B93 - 17m) un-hooks and proceeds to the FD to pick up 6 other VGAs.

3. Loco and 6 VGAs (9B93 - 102m) exit FD, rejoin 6B93 and depart.

4. Yard pilot (0S03 - 8m) appears from FD and joins VGAs in Dalgety siding.

5. Pilot shunts VGAs to FD (9S00 - 93m).

6. Pilot draws out 3 VGAs to Down siding (9S01 - 50m) and propels back to FD.

7. Pilot draws out to Down siding and returns to FD (0S03A - 8m).

8. Repeat 6.

9. Pilot draws 6 VGAs out of FD to Down Siding and propels to Sheriff's Siding (9S02 - 93m).

Well, progress was good till it came time for step 9 when I got a message from the FD saying that there was not enough stock to form 9S02!

Please tell me what I have done wrong!

Saved game attached.

Also trains appear not able to pass through the Down loop in the UP direction when timetabled to do so. They seem to stop at the points for the FD, even with the shunter having been told to allow train to exit loop towards K244. Shunter claims they can't set the points. (This is after shunter complains of a lack of train when asked to set the points before train enters the Down loop!)

Almost forgot, Loader version 4.6.11 Royston Data 4.0 Build 3.

TIA

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Royston Frieght Depot 15/02/2018 at 08:22 #105927
Peter Bennet
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Suggest you draw up a table of train lengths for each exit/entrance point just to make sure you've not got a mismatch. Remember that the lengths taken by the Sim are calculated by each join/divide which is not necessarily what the original timetable says.

I don't know what the stock counting parameters have been set to on Royston but it looks like you have exceeded them somehow.

Peter

Stereotypes only have themselves to blame
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Royston Frieght Depot 19/02/2018 at 12:42 #106016
clive
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Peter Bennet in post 105927 said:

I don't know what the stock counting parameters have been set to on Royston but it looks like you have exceeded them somehow.
I haven't had a chance to look at this issue yet, but the rolling stock accounting is:

Grain siding: 300/400m.
Sherriff's: 180/250m.
Freight depot: 140/240m.

The first number is the maximum length train that can enter or exit, the second is the overall capacity.

No other locations have capacity control, but of course single sidings have a built-in capacity.

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Royston Frieght Depot 19/02/2018 at 19:32 #106022
Soton_Speed
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clive in post 106016 said:

I haven't had a chance to look at this issue yet, but the rolling stock accounting is:

Grain siding: 300/400m.
Sherriff's: 180/250m.
Freight depot: 140/240m.

The first number is the maximum length train that can enter or exit, the second is the overall capacity.

No other locations have capacity control, but of course single sidings have a built-in capacity.
No worries Clive. The net outgoings from the FD are 203m in length so I would have thought that there shouldn't be a problem.

I also cant get any paths to validate from the Sheriff's Siding entrance.

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Royston Frieght Depot 20/02/2018 at 08:29 #106034
clive
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I've had a bit more of a look but don't have any solid answers.

Firstly, what would really help is some saved games. As soon as you get a message that doesn't make sense, save the game immediately and attach it here (saying what the issue is). I can then look inside it and see what's happening.

[I've just noticed that your original post said you attached one. It isn't there as far as I can see.]

There are two kinds of sidings in SimSig. The first is the single stub siding - a piece of track that's only connected at one end. A train sat in such a siding will remain visible in F2. There's no need for rolling stock accounting or anything like that. In the case of Royston, Dalgety and the Down Siding are like that. They are 220m and 140m long respectively. Note that unless a train is right up against the buffer stop, the effective length will be less.

The second kind is the exit point siding, using in situations where there is more than one track and trains could be shunted around within the siding without affecting the rest of the area. That's what Grain, Sherriff's, and the Freight Depot are. In these, a train actually leaves the simulation (and so disappears from F2) when it enters the siding and has to be re-entered as a new train. The rolling stock accounting keeps track of the length of trains that enter and leave and ensures they are consistent with the size of the siding.

Working through your numbers there should have been no issue with the trains. Was this a fresh run or had you tried things out before in the same run? It's quite possible that you'd taken out more trains than you'd put in during a test. Please try it again with a fresh run of the simulation. Again, if you get the complaint, save the game.

"Shunter claims they can't set the points."

This almost certainly means another train is sticking out of the siding and overhanging the points. This could be Dalgety's or the Freight Depot. To test this hypothesis, save the game, check on F2 if there are any trains in either place, use the "hand of god" to remove them, and see if the problem goes away. If not, again, I need the saved game.

"shunter complains of a lack of train when asked to set the points before train enters the Down loop"

The shunter is a bolshie character who doesn't want to get out of his nice warm hut into the rain and wind. If he can't see a train, he isn't going to stir just because you say there'll be one along later. Similarly, he won't tell you more than the absolute minimum when things go wrong because that involves interrupting his tea and newspaper.

Paths from Sherriff's: eek! I can see the problem. How the hell did that get through testing? Mantis 19766.

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Royston Frieght Depot 20/02/2018 at 09:58 #106035
kbarber
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clive in post 106034 said:


The shunter is a bolshie character who doesn't want to get out of his nice warm hut into the rain and wind. If he can't see a train, he isn't going to stir just because you say there'll be one along later. Similarly, he won't tell you more than the absolute minimum when things go wrong because that involves interrupting his tea and newspaper.

Willesden Brent Sidings 1983 - 1985 refers, though it wasn't so much the newspaper as the interminable (and very noisy) game of dominos. Chance of getting shunter out of cabin if it's wet decreases sharply. Same if it's dry. Or windy, or foggy, or snow, or frost. You get the picture? :-)

I did have some successes though. I still treasure the day the driver off the up Nuneaton asked: "What yo doon, got the whip out?"

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Royston Frieght Depot 20/02/2018 at 20:28 #106046
Soton_Speed
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clive in post 106034 said:

Working through your numbers there should have been no issue with the trains. Was this a fresh run or had you tried things out before in the same run? It's quite possible that you'd taken out more trains than you'd put in during a test. Please try it again with a fresh run of the simulation. Again, if you get the complaint, save the game.
There should be a save attached in the original post but another, 'clean game' save is attached below (Royston_1985_FD_1.ssg). This time no message generated about insufficient stock but no train entered.

clive in post 106034 said:
"Shunter claims they can't set the points."

This almost certainly means another train is sticking out of the siding and overhanging the points. This could be Dalgety's or the Freight Depot. To test this hypothesis, save the game, check on F2 if there are any trains in either place, use the "hand of god" to remove them, and see if the problem goes away. If not, again, I need the saved game.
Saved game (Down_Loop.ssg) attached - this was a clean game with test train.

clive in post 106034 said:
"shunter complains of a lack of train when asked to set the points before train enters the Down loop"

The shunter is a bolshie character who doesn't want to get out of his nice warm hut into the rain and wind. If he can't see a train, he isn't going to stir just because you say there'll be one along later. Similarly, he won't tell you more than the absolute minimum when things go wrong because that involves interrupting his tea and newspaper.

Paths from Sherriff's: eek! I can see the problem. How the hell did that get through testing? Mantis 19766.
Yes, the bolshie-ness did make me smile! Also found that after a train was sent to the sheriff's siding, points were not set for FD, Down Loop or Dalgety sidings, despite Shunter claiming to have done so. Saved game (Sheriff_exit.ssg) attached.

One thing I have noticed is that trains will happily draw straight up to K244 upon entering at the Freight Depot or leaving Dalgety Siding, but will wait till the shunter has set the points before leaving the Down or Grain Sidings.

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Royston Frieght Depot 21/02/2018 at 13:06 #106057
clive
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Soton_Speed in post 106046 said:
clive in post 106034 said:

Working through your numbers there should have been no issue with the trains. Was this a fresh run or had you tried things out before in the same run? It's quite possible that you'd taken out more trains than you'd put in during a test. Please try it again with a fresh run of the simulation. Again, if you get the complaint, save the game.
There should be a save attached in the original post but another, 'clean game' save is attached below (Royston_1985_FD_1.ssg). This time no message generated about insufficient stock but no train entered.
When I untick "shunt move" on 0S03 and give it an entry time, it enters. So this is something to do with shunt moves, which is not my area of expertise. According to the saved game you have between 0 and 22 metres of train in the Freight Depot. I haven't worked through your timetable to see what happened (and saved games don't record that).

If you want to investigate for yourself, .ssg files are just zip files containing an XML file. Search the XML for "<TLOC ID="K244F"> and look for the MaxRollingStock and MinRollingStock values (the latter won't appear if it's zero).

Soton_Speed in post 106046 said:

clive in post 106034 said:
"Shunter claims they can't set the points."

This almost certainly means another train is sticking out of the siding and overhanging the points. This could be Dalgety's or the Freight Depot. To test this hypothesis, save the game, check on F2 if there are any trains in either place, use the "hand of god" to remove them, and see if the problem goes away. If not, again, I need the saved game.
Saved game (Down_Loop.ssg) attached - this was a clean game with test train.
There's nothing obviously wrong in the saved game. I'll need to do more investigation.

Soton_Speed in post 106046 said:

Also found that after a train was sent to the sheriff's siding, points were not set for FD, Down Loop or Dalgety sidings, despite Shunter claiming to have done so.
Yes, I can see why that would happen, but not so sure how to fix it.

Mantis 19772.

Soton_Speed in post 106046 said:

One thing I have noticed is that trains will happily draw straight up to K244 upon entering at the Freight Depot or leaving Dalgety Siding, but will wait till the shunter has set the points before leaving the Down or Grain Sidings.
Giving the shunter permission to let the train enter at Grain, Sheriff's, or Freight Depot is taken as also instructing him to set the route out to 244 or 249 if he can (if he can't, he'll phone you). Dalgety's and the Down Siding work differently, so the trains shouldn't move without permission.

I thought all this was in the manual.

Last edited: 21/02/2018 at 13:12 by clive
Reason: Changes to last part.

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Royston Frieght Depot 22/02/2018 at 10:53 #106070
clive
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Soton_Speed in post 106046 said:

clive in post 106034 said:
"Shunter claims they can't set the points."

This almost certainly means another train is sticking out of the siding and overhanging the points. This could be Dalgety's or the Freight Depot. To test this hypothesis, save the game, check on F2 if there are any trains in either place, use the "hand of god" to remove them, and see if the problem goes away. If not, again, I need the saved game.
Saved game (Down_Loop.ssg) attached - this was a clean game with test train.

Figured this out.

It's a bit too complex to explain here, but I suspect there may have been a subtle change in the core code at some point that broke something I shouldn't have been relying on working. Unfortunately I can't see a work-around to suggest until it's fixed.

Mantis 19783.

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Royston Frieght Depot 22/02/2018 at 19:51 #106083
Soton_Speed
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clive in post 106057 said:
Soton_Speed in post 106046 said:
clive in post 106034 said:

Working through your numbers there should have been no issue with the trains. Was this a fresh run or had you tried things out before in the same run? It's quite possible that you'd taken out more trains than you'd put in during a test. Please try it again with a fresh run of the simulation. Again, if you get the complaint, save the game.
There should be a save attached in the original post but another, 'clean game' save is attached below (Royston_1985_FD_1.ssg). This time no message generated about insufficient stock but no train entered.
When I untick "shunt move" on 0S03 and give it an entry time, it enters. So this is something to do with shunt moves, which is not my area of expertise. According to the saved game you have between 0 and 22 metres of train in the Freight Depot. I haven't worked through your timetable to see what happened (and saved games don't record that).

If you want to investigate for yourself, .ssg files are just zip files containing an XML file. Search the XML for "<TLOC ID="K244F"> and look for the MaxRollingStock and MinRollingStock values (the latter won't appear if it's zero).
On a new session, shunt moves un-ticked and ordinary trains used with no entry times but governed by rules.

Freight Depot starts off with MaxRollingStock=240 and MinRollingStock=0.

The entry into FD of 17m train does not alter these values.

103m train leaves FD and MaxRollingStock=138 MinRollingStock=0.

8m train leaves FD and MaxRollingStock=130 MinRollingStock=0.

93m train enters FD MaxRollingStock=130 MinRollingStock=0.

50m train leaves FD MaxRollingStock=80 MinRollingStock=0.

50m train enters FD MaxRollingStock=80 MinRollingStock=0.

8m train leaves and enters FD MaxRollingSock=72 MinRollingStock=0.

50m train leaves and enters FD MaxRollingStock=22 MinRollingStock=0.

It's now time for 93m train to leave FD, which obviously it can't. Train length reduced to 22m and train leaves FD.

Train enters into Sheriff's Siding which had values of MaxRollingStock=250 MinRollingStock=0 beforehand and the same after.

clive in post 106057 said:
Soton_Speed in post 106046 said:

One thing I have noticed is that trains will happily draw straight up to K244 upon entering at the Freight Depot or leaving Dalgety Siding, but will wait till the shunter has set the points before leaving the Down or Grain Sidings.
Giving the shunter permission to let the train enter at Grain, Sheriff's, or Freight Depot is taken as also instructing him to set the route out to 244 or 249 if he can (if he can't, he'll phone you). Dalgety's and the Down Siding work differently, so the trains shouldn't move without permission.

I thought all this was in the manual.
Doh! Yes that was a failure in my logic. Having re-read it, it is there in the manual.

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Royston Frieght Depot 23/02/2018 at 07:47 #106091
clive
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Soton_Speed in post 106083 said:

On a new session, shunt moves un-ticked and ordinary trains used with no entry times but governed by rules.

Freight Depot starts off with MaxRollingStock=240 and MinRollingStock=0.

The entry into FD of 17m train does not alter these values.

That's wrong, right there!

And looking at the sim source, I can see something's gone missing that would explain it. (Why it's gone missing is another question that I can't explain.)

Mantis 19788.

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Royston Frieght Depot 25/02/2018 at 00:36 #106143
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Thanks Clive. Let me know if you need any further testing done.
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Royston Frieght Depot 25/02/2018 at 09:48 #106148
clive
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Soton_Speed in post 106143 said:
Thanks Clive. Let me know if you need any further testing done.
Could you please email me directly (clive at simsig.co.uk). Thanks.

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