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GSM-R and fail safe

You are here: Home > Forum > Miscellaneous > The real thing (signalling) > GSM-R and fail safe

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GSM-R and fail safe 25/06/2018 at 10:33 #109918
kbarber
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1712 posts 		TUT in post 109910 said:
Giantray in post 109888 said:
Andy174 in post 109784 said:
Just shows how complicated the railway has become. When I was driving under BR the ONLY person you conversed with in such circumstances was the signalman either by then lineside phones or in later years CSR, There was no means of being contacted by anyone else. Just out of interest it used to be the case if stood at an automatic signal on red and there was no means of contacting the signalman ie the phone had failed etc it could be passed at danger, is this still the case?
The original ruling about passing auto signals was there because they didn't protect any point work, it was just plain line to the next signal no point work requiring setting by the Signaller.

No drivers cannot pass Automatic Signal without authority any more. This changed as it was deemed that a driver can always find some form of communication to contact a Signaller, be it Signal Post Telephones, GSM-R even mobile phones that they now carry as standard, or even borrowing a passenger mobile phone. Incidently, many of the new Signalling layouts now only have Signal Post Telephones on signals at stations, or other key places. The majority of signals will not have telephones, just a plaque with the controlling Signallers telephone number.
That's what I thought - in which case I have a follow-up question I've been meaning to ask. Why are signals still plated as automatics in that case? Why not just leave off the white and black stripes?
Old ones aren't going to be changed just for the sake of having the right plate. As usual on the railway, old signalling remains as it was until the time comes for replacement (or there's a necessary safety upgrade).

I'm not sure the stripe is used with new signals (must remember to have a look next time I use the East London line). If it is, then all it does is designate that the signal is auto without giving authority for any particular action.
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GSM-R and fail safe 25/06/2018 at 17:38 #109931
Albert
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1313 posts 		Passing a signal at danger when the signaller can't be contacted will probably soon be a thing of the past - quite logical as the signaller can now (almost) always be contacted by GSM-R or other means, and it could be seen (with some imagination) as a safety risk

In the Netherlands automatic signals are on the way out already. They are no longer used on new-built railways; almost all signals are controlled on Lelystad-Zwolle (opened 2012) and the recently four-tracked lines around Amsterdam and Utrecht, with the exception of the lines to the south of Utrecht.

Back on topic, GSM-R here always connects you to the signaller, as it is simply the only means of communication available between the signaller and the driver. Signal post telephones were abolished, in favour of a wireless system, nearly 30 (!) years ago!
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Last edited: 25/06/2018 at 17:45 by Albert
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GSM-R and fail safe 25/06/2018 at 18:11 #109932
Late Turn
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696 posts 		Albert in post 109931 said:
Passing a signal at danger when the signaller can't be contacted will probably soon be a thing of the past - quite logical as the signaller can now (almost) always be contacted by GSM-R or other means, and it could be seen (with some imagination) as a safety risk

Presumably the two sets of circumstances that remain in the Rule Book are intended for those situations on an Absolute Block line where a box is switched out but (for whatever reason) one of its signals is at danger - so they'll have to stay there for as long as there's boxes that can switch out!
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GSM-R and fail safe 25/06/2018 at 19:00 #109933
Danny252
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1461 posts 		Is it not possible for the driver to call the next (or previous) switched in box, or even better, for the GSM-R system to automatically reroute calls when a box is switched out? I'm sure I've read about signal post telephones being automatically rerouted when boxes were switched out "back in the day", and I would have assumed such a feature would be made easier with a digital system.
Last edited: 25/06/2018 at 19:01 by Danny252
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GSM-R and fail safe 25/06/2018 at 19:51 #109936
Late Turn
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696 posts 		Yes, it’s possible for one box to take over another’s “role” on GSM-R (it’s been a while, but I think it’s done routinely when a box switches out?) and the driver can contact any box through the ‘phone book’ option, but that signalman can do no more than to confirm to the driver that the adjacent box is closed and suggest that he applies the provisions of the Rule Book.
Last edited: 25/06/2018 at 19:52 by Late Turn
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GSM-R and fail safe 26/06/2018 at 09:30 #109948
kbarber
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1712 posts 		Danny252 in post 109933 said:
Is it not possible for the driver to call the next (or previous) switched in box, or even better, for the GSM-R system to automatically reroute calls when a box is switched out? I'm sure I've read about signal post telephones being automatically rerouted when boxes were switched out "back in the day", and I would have assumed such a feature would be made easier with a digital system.
That was certainly the case in TCB areas, and in those instances the box to whom phones were switched would also have all the requisite TC indications on a panel/diagram so drivers could be instructed to pass at danger int he normal way. I was never aware of such facilities being provided in AB areas.
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