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Why wasn't TRTS used for non-passenger traffic?

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Why wasn't TRTS used for non-passenger traffic? 13/08/2018 at 23:27 #111015
Steamer
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I understand that TRTS has been disabled intentionally at Carlisle for non-passenger traffic, as it wasn't used in real life.

My question is, why? With splits and divides all over the place, along with trains being loaded and unloaded, isn't operating the TRTS easier than any other method of confirming to the signaller that the train is ready to go, and avoiding the risk of the signaller pulling off for a train they hadn't realised was delayed? Conversely, if the station staff and signallers were happy running non-passenger traffic without TRTS, why bother using it for passenger traffic?

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Why wasn't TRTS used for non-passenger traffic? 14/08/2018 at 01:40 #111017
VInce
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Ermmm - you gave the answer yourself - because that's really how it is in reality.

TRTS signifies that station duties are complete. Freight trains do not have "station duties" so TRTS is not used. In any event, who would operate the TRTS for a freight train?

Parcels trains do have station duties - so TRTS was used for those.

Vince

Last edited: 14/08/2018 at 01:49 by VInce
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Why wasn't TRTS used for non-passenger traffic? 14/08/2018 at 05:28 #111019
GeoffM
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VInce in post 111017 said:
Freight trains do not have "station duties" so TRTS is not used. In any event, who would operate the TRTS for a freight train?
That's the main reason I've heard. Platform staff won't operate it - "not my job guv" (which is fair).

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Why wasn't TRTS used for non-passenger traffic? 14/08/2018 at 07:40 #111022
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I think steamers point isn't about freight traffic. Its about parcel/sleeper shunts not ringing out to confirm they're ready to move which makes it difficult (short of F2 menu) to pull off with confidence they're going to actually move. For instance 1M13 detaches a rear portion so a portion can be inserted inside the train. At no point does the pilot ring out from P4 or P6 to confirm all duties are complete and he's ready to move. Surely the shunter would ring out or call?
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Why wasn't TRTS used for non-passenger traffic? 14/08/2018 at 09:28 #111024
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jc92 in post 111022 said:
I think steamers point isn't about freight traffic. Its about parcel/sleeper shunts not ringing out to confirm they're ready to move which makes it difficult (short of F2 menu) to pull off with confidence they're going to actually move. For instance 1M13 detaches a rear portion so a portion can be inserted inside the train. At no point does the pilot ring out from P4 or P6 to confirm all duties are complete and he's ready to move. Surely the shunter would ring out or call?
(Italics mine to indicate what I'm responding to.)

Probably not actually. Where that sort of shunt is going on, it's a regular and well-understood procedure that all concerned want to get over with as quickly as they can. (There's a brew cooling, or a card school to get back to in the shunters' cabin after all.) So the usual procedure would be to set the road for the shunt out pretty much as soon as you could pull up after the pilot had gone in (unless you were holding him back for some other move, a passing train or somesuch). Of course there's no need for a brake test with a shunt, you just pipe up, blow up and go (and if my experience at Kensington was anything to go by going meant controller wide open to draw out, though you went a good deal slower when shunting back in). So 'duties complete' consists of one man hooking off the shunt and closing the brake pipe cock while the other, with the pilot, slings the shackle over the hook (why bother screwing it up?) and joining the brake pipe, then the driver blows off the train brake (holds it on the loco air brake) so he's ready to go as soon as he gets the tip.

Last edited: 14/08/2018 at 09:29 by kbarber
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Why wasn't TRTS used for non-passenger traffic? 14/08/2018 at 14:57 #111034
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GeoffM in post 111019 said:
VInce in post 111017 said:
Freight trains do not have "station duties" so TRTS is not used. In any event, who would operate the TRTS for a freight train?
That's the main reason I've heard. Platform staff won't operate it - "not my job guv" (which is fair).
Not only that, but at many locations the TRTS plungers were towards the centre of the platforms where the station staff would be when dispatching passenger trains, rather than at the platform ends where relieving crews would be waiting. At Derby freight drivers generally called up on the SPT when they were ready to depart after relieving, if the signal hadn't already been cleared.


Phil.

Last edited: 14/08/2018 at 14:58 by Phil-jmw
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Why wasn't TRTS used for non-passenger traffic? 14/08/2018 at 20:23 #111048
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The other point I'd say to which no one has eluded to is the fact that the signalman knew exactly what shunt moves occurred every night or day with certain NPCCS trains. Back in 19851986 when I was on the footplate 1D26 02.04 Newspapers St. Pancras - Nottingham was 1st stop Leicester. The train divided went foward with the loco+5 coaches. The signal at the end of P2 was displaying a green proceed aspect even before the train stopped. The signalman in Leicester North box(& later with Leicester PSB) knew exactly what 1D26 would do. As soon as the train divided we'd be off next stop Nottingham. Even once the train had unloaded all the newspapers off the train the signal usually on P1 would have the cats eyes lit up to go into the goods yard to run round. Even the somersault lower quadrant signal would also be off. TRTS was never used at Nottingham.
The same at Derby aft to the guarder working 1Pxx 2015 Pcls St. Pancras - Derby & returned with 1M59 'Up Mid North TPO'. As soon as we arrived at Derby we'd leave the engine & head off to the messroom. The TCS would notify us of the arrival of 1M59 in P6 where the train would divide. There was also a loco change as our loco to work 1M59 forward to St. Pancras came off No.4 shed. A Derby man would bring it in & buffer up shut his desk down & get off. In the meantime the shunter would couple the loco to the train. We'd get in the London end cab, open the desk, put the AWS in & set the drivers brake valve ready for the brake test. As oon as the brake test was done the signal at the west end of the station was off. Never once did we get on the phone to Derby PSB. The signallers knew exactly what each train was booked to do & as soon as the postal staff gave the tip to the guard the 'RA' would light up & we'd depart. Despite someone pressing the button the platform to lihjt up 'RA' the main signal was already showing a proceed aspect. The signallers knew off by heart what trains did what where & when, so to minimise any delays the associated signals would be cleared. The only time that idn't hapen was if there was a problem with train or if there was disruption & trains had to use different platforms.

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Why wasn't TRTS used for non-passenger traffic? 14/08/2018 at 20:31 #111049
TomOF
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John has basically explained it but I felt it wasn't realistic for every move at Carlisle to generate TRTS, which IIRC the loader version did.

Especially so with freights etc

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Why wasn't TRTS used for non-passenger traffic? 14/08/2018 at 20:47 #111050
postal
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TomOF in post 111049 said:
John has basically explained it but I felt it wasn't realistic for every move at Carlisle to generate TRTS, which IIRC the loader version did.

Especially so with freights etc
Not guilty, your honour. Do you mean Pascal (58050), who has far more knowledge of the real operation than I do?

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Why wasn't TRTS used for non-passenger traffic? 14/08/2018 at 21:22 #111054
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Please accept my apologies,

yes I meant 58050.

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Why wasn't TRTS used for non-passenger traffic? 14/08/2018 at 23:24 #111057
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58050 in post 111048 said:
The signallers knew off by heart what trains did what where & when, so to minimise any delays the associated signals would be cleared. The only time that idn't hapen was if there was a problem with train or if there was disruption & trains had to use different platforms.
That does beg the question though- how often was delay caused by the signaller pulling off in expectation, only for the train to sit there while some form of farce was resolved?

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Why wasn't TRTS used for non-passenger traffic? 15/08/2018 at 09:18 #111058
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Steamer in post 111057 said:
58050 in post 111048 said:
The signallers knew off by heart what trains did what where & when, so to minimise any delays the associated signals would be cleared. The only time that idn't hapen was if there was a problem with train or if there was disruption & trains had to use different platforms.
That does beg the question though- how often was delay caused by the signaller pulling off in expectation, only for the train to sit there while some form of farce was resolved?
If owt went wrong, someone would be on to the box straightaway so the peg could be put back before the delay affected anything else.

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Why wasn't TRTS used for non-passenger traffic? 17/08/2018 at 19:58 #111180
norman B
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During my time at Carlisle the regular moves required no telephone calls to be made.That said if due to late running these moves could inhibit other traffic the signalman on duty would ring the platform inspector and advise what problems may arise and a solution was worked out.
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Why wasn't TRTS used for non-passenger traffic? 17/08/2018 at 21:56 #111188
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Just a thought regarding previous comments regarding a phone call to advise of delays.

Is it possible to add a feature where the sim calculates any crew change/dwell/other and rings if it calculates the train will depart late.

My logic comes with parcels trains which have extended dwell times for platform duties which are running late. Without TRTS or an indication of how much dwell time has been assigned (without cheating in the F4 menu) it's very difficult to confidently pull off without the concern for the train sitting for a while, other than waiting until the train calls in after a 2 min wait causing further delay.

Thoughts?

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Why wasn't TRTS used for non-passenger traffic? 18/08/2018 at 03:04 #111193
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I thought the conclusion from previous posts in this thread was that parcel trains would prototypically use TRTS?
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Why wasn't TRTS used for non-passenger traffic? 18/08/2018 at 12:48 #111204
VInce
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Hawk777 in post 111193 said:
I thought the conclusion from previous posts in this thread was that parcel trains would prototypically use TRTS?
Yes, they definitely did use TRTS...

Vince

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Why wasn't TRTS used for non-passenger traffic? 18/08/2018 at 12:58 #111207
Phil-jmw
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58050 in post 111048 said:
The other point I'd say to which no one has eluded to is the fact that the signalman knew exactly what shunt moves occurred every night or day with certain NPCCS trains. Back in 19851986 when I was on the footplate 1D26 02.04 Newspapers St. Pancras - Nottingham was 1st stop Leicester. The train divided went foward with the loco+5 coaches. The signal at the end of P2 was displaying a green proceed aspect even before the train stopped. The signalman in Leicester North box(& later with Leicester PSB) knew exactly what 1D26 would do. As soon as the train divided we'd be off next stop Nottingham. Even once the train had unloaded all the newspapers off the train the signal usually on P1 would have the cats eyes lit up to go into the goods yard to run round. Even the somersault lower quadrant signal would also be off. TRTS was never used at Nottingham.
The same at Derby aft to the guarder working 1Pxx 2015 Pcls St. Pancras - Derby & returned with 1M59 'Up Mid North TPO'. As soon as we arrived at Derby we'd leave the engine & head off to the messroom. The TCS would notify us of the arrival of 1M59 in P6 where the train would divide. There was also a loco change as our loco to work 1M59 forward to St. Pancras came off No.4 shed. A Derby man would bring it in & buffer up shut his desk down & get off. In the meantime the shunter would couple the loco to the train. We'd get in the London end cab, open the desk, put the AWS in & set the drivers brake valve ready for the brake test. As oon as the brake test was done the signal at the west end of the station was off. Never once did we get on the phone to Derby PSB. The signallers knew exactly what each train was booked to do & as soon as the postal staff gave the tip to the guard the 'RA' would light up & we'd depart. Despite someone pressing the button the platform to lihjt up 'RA' the main signal was already showing a proceed aspect. The signallers knew off by heart what trains did what where & when, so to minimise any delays the associated signals would be cleared. The only time that idn't hapen was if there was a problem with train or if there was disruption & trains had to use different platforms.
There were no RA buttons at Derby, only TRTS buttons which lit up flashing lamps on the panel.

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Why wasn't TRTS used for non-passenger traffic? 18/08/2018 at 14:43 #111212
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VInce in post 111204 said:
Hawk777 in post 111193 said:
I thought the conclusion from previous posts in this thread was that parcel trains would prototypically use TRTS?
Yes, they definitely did use TRTS...

Vince
That's great. But they don't in the sim.

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Why wasn't TRTS used for non-passenger traffic? 18/08/2018 at 18:37 #111225
Hawk777
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jc92 in post 111212 said:
VInce in post 111204 said:
Hawk777 in post 111193 said:
I thought the conclusion from previous posts in this thread was that parcel trains would prototypically use TRTS?
Yes, they definitely did use TRTS...

Vince
That's great. But they don't in the sim.
Sure. My point, though, was that if they don’t use TRTS in the sim but they do prototypically, wouldn’t the sensible answer be to make them use TRTS in the sim, not to add more phone calls?

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Why wasn't TRTS used for non-passenger traffic? 19/08/2018 at 14:15 #111267
kbarber
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norman B in post 111180 said:
During my time at Carlisle the regular moves required no telephone calls to be made.That said if due to late running these moves could inhibit other traffic the signalman on duty would ring the platform inspector and advise what problems may arise and a solution was worked out.
Remember a box like Carlisle would have had a 'Back Row' who would have done a certain amount of the telephone work. There would have been a Box Supervisor (in earlier years he would have been known as the Regulator), who would have made the main regulating decisions, which involved quite a bit of talking to other locations. In the late '70s/early '80s, in LMR boxes (maybe elsewhere too?) there would also have been an 'Assistant Controller', a salaried (as oposed to Wages grade) position that never appeared in the official list of grades, and was in effect a glorified booking boy. As much of the routine booking was done automatically by that time, the A/c's work was more concerned with the information-handling aspect of the job. Obviously things would vary and, if there was a good team, a phone call would be made by whoever was most convenient to make it, but I'd expect one of those two posts to do the bulk of the telephone work, including liaising with the platform staff if there was a problem that would delay a shunt.

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