Manchester South FAQ

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Manchester South FAQ 13/12/2018 at 22:57 #113955
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Manchester South Frequently Asked Questions

Do you think you've found a bug? Or do you have a problem running the simulation, check through this thread first.

Remember timetables are dealt with in the relevant timetable thread.

"CHECK Do you stop at Capenhurst?" - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Manchester South FAQ 14/12/2018 at 06:36 #113963
Mattyq
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How does one set signals bang road in the bidi sections? DOFI's stay lit for normal direction when all controlled signals set to red and routes will not set wrong line into the section. Nothing in the manual covers this.
Not fat ..... fluffy!! (G Iglesias)
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Manchester South FAQ 14/12/2018 at 07:06 #113964
Andrew G
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Once you have cancelled all of the routes set in the current direction of travel click on one of the opposing arrows and the direction will change.

I will add a section to the manual later this morning.

Last edited: 14/12/2018 at 07:07 by Andrew G
Reason: None given

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Manchester South FAQ 14/12/2018 at 13:30 #113974
Splodge
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One thing that jumps out to me - there seem to be a few banner repeaters missing - MS4132, 3882 and 4110 (Wilsmlow 2, 3 and 4 in the down direction) all have banners at the beginning of the platform. Also MS386 (Cheadle Hulme, up Stoke) and MS4120 and 3894 (Up and Down Wilmslow, up direction) should have them.

I do like the delay in signals stepping up - very accurate!

There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway.
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Manchester South FAQ 14/12/2018 at 14:20 #113976
pedroathome
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Splodge in post 113974 said:
One thing that jumps out to me - there seem to be a few banner repeaters missing - MS4132, 3882 and 4110 (Wilsmlow 2, 3 and 4 in the down direction) all have banners at the beginning of the platform. Also MS386 (Cheadle Hulme, up Stoke) and MS4120 and 3894 (Up and Down Wilmslow, up direction) should have them.

I do like the delay in signals stepping up - very accurate! :)
All added. Banners are very easily missed on those screens

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Manchester South FAQ 14/12/2018 at 15:01 #113979
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Set a route from Wilmslow DRS with 3S50 behind it - MS4109 changed to an odd white flashing square, which stopped flashing and solidified when the route was set and proved. When MS1715 returned to danger, MS4109 returned to a normal danger aspect as well.
There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway.
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Manchester South FAQ 14/12/2018 at 15:08 #113980
pedroathome
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Splodge in post 113979 said:
Set a route from Wilmslow DRS with 3S50 behind it - MS4109 changed to an odd white flashing square, which stopped flashing and solidified when the route was set and proved. When MS1715 returned to danger, MS4109 returned to a normal danger aspect as well.
I dont know how thats happend, but fixed for the next upddate

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Manchester South FAQ 14/12/2018 at 17:12 #113988
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Another one - ACI doesn't seem to be working at Alderley Edge or Macclesfield.
There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway.
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Manchester South FAQ 14/12/2018 at 17:20 #113990
Andrew G
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Splodge in post 113988 said:
Another one - ACI doesn't seem to be working at Alderley Edge or Macclesfield.
It is a core code issue - currently ACI doesn't work if a train enters from a chained simulation - only if it is either in the simulation at start-up as a seed or when a simulation is in stand alone mode.

I believe the issue has been identified and will be resolved with the next core code update.

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Manchester South FAQ 14/12/2018 at 18:14 #113992
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Andrew G in post 113990 said:
Splodge in post 113988 said:
Another one - ACI doesn't seem to be working at Alderley Edge or Macclesfield.
It is a core code issue - currently ACI doesn't work if a train enters from a chained simulation - only if it is either in the simulation at start-up as a seed or when a simulation is in stand alone mode.

I believe the issue has been identified and will be resolved with the next core code update.
ACI has indeed resolved its difficulties and the next Loader update is imminent. Quite a big update so we want to make sure it's all good.

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Manchester South FAQ 15/12/2018 at 16:23 #114023
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While keying the facing crossover Normal at the south end of Chelford loops prior to talking 6E64 over a track circuit failure I was surprised to find that the crossover isn't double-ended, instead being two single-ended sets of points. Out of curiosity I randomly tried a few other crossovers and found them also to be two single-ended set of points. Is this the case in real life? I also tried the Macclesfield crossovers but they are all double-ended, and I've also discovered in the Stockport sim that the Stockport 1 Fast-Fast crossover that is released by Edgeley 2 is also two single ended sets.
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Manchester South FAQ 15/12/2018 at 16:56 #114026
Splodge
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0K99 hasn't entered from Northwich East - its now an hour late. It isn't showing as entered, and has no rules prohibiting its entry.
There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway.
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Manchester South FAQ 15/12/2018 at 18:06 #114028
Andrew G
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Phil-jmw in post 114023 said:
While keying the facing crossover Normal at the south end of Chelford loops prior to talking 6E64 over a track circuit failure I was surprised to find that the crossover isn't double-ended, instead being two single-ended sets of points. Out of curiosity I randomly tried a few other crossovers and found them also to be two single-ended set of points. Is this the case in real life? I also tried the Macclesfield crossovers but they are all double-ended, and I've also discovered in the Stockport sim that the Stockport 1 Fast-Fast crossover that is released by Edgeley 2 is also two single ended sets.
All 3 boxes are as per real life.

Last edited: 15/12/2018 at 22:26 by Andrew G
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Manchester South FAQ 15/12/2018 at 23:45 #114040
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Andrew G in post 114028 said:
Phil-jmw in post 114023 said:
While keying the facing crossover Normal at the south end of Chelford loops prior to talking 6E64 over a track circuit failure I was surprised to find that the crossover isn't double-ended, instead being two single-ended sets of points. Out of curiosity I randomly tried a few other crossovers and found them also to be two single-ended set of points. Is this the case in real life? I also tried the Macclesfield crossovers but they are all double-ended, and I've also discovered in the Stockport sim that the Stockport 1 Fast-Fast crossover that is released by Edgeley 2 is also two single ended sets.
All 3 boxes are as per real life.
Thanks Andrew. I guessed they would be. Do you know what the reason was for making them single-ended rather than the conventional double-ended approach?

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Manchester South FAQ 15/12/2018 at 23:57 #114041
Andrew G
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Phil-jmw in post 114040 said:


Thanks Andrew. I guessed they would be. Do you know what the reason was for making them single-ended rather than the conventional double-ended approach?
The Stockport ones always appesar to have been that way if you look at this diagram view taken when the points were still mechanically operated so probably a LNWR approach.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/llangollen_signalman/33541918514/in/photolist-Uh4EKs-Uh4EK7-TzBgfY-Uh4HFN-UBF31m-TCtsUB-Uh3Rc1-TzAiLw-UBF2gL-TzwRbd-Uh3R19-UBF3gS-TzARhN-TzAiwJ-UBJp6G-UBGYzQ-TzAihq-UBF2Lo-Uh4HuA-UBF2uG-TRxj5z-TzwQWW-TSu99T-TSqwQT-SLDVyQ-9ET9go-9EQdyZ-9EQcx6-9ETbsY-9EQe9V-9ETaUy-9EQee8-9EQdN2-9EQdqR-9ETbeA-9EQduv-9ETbRo-9EQe32-9ETaxu-9ETbpN-9ETaPh-9EQct2-UbNRJH-UbNRYv-Uonm4x-UonkRZ-UonmuH-T9M8Xk-T6Z6MU-UbNRbD

For Manchester South it might be linked to the fact it is a rather rare UK Ansaldo installation although the approach is more common now on new schemes as it means that electrical detection of each end is independent.

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Manchester South FAQ 16/12/2018 at 00:16 #114042
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Single ended crossovers are more forgiving in times of failure - if the other end is on another track but not detected, it may be possible to get clear signals on this track. Depends on facing Vs trailing.

Conversely there is more locking and thus cost required for single ended crossovers.

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Manchester South FAQ 16/12/2018 at 01:57 #114045
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Andrew G in post 114041 said:
Phil-jmw in post 114040 said:


Thanks Andrew. I guessed they would be. Do you know what the reason was for making them single-ended rather than the conventional double-ended approach?
The Stockport ones always appesar to have been that way if you look at this diagram view taken when the points were still mechanically operated so probably a LNWR approach.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/llangollen_signalman/33541918514/in/photolist-Uh4EKs-Uh4EK7-TzBgfY-Uh4HFN-UBF31m-TCtsUB-Uh3Rc1-TzAiLw-UBF2gL-TzwRbd-Uh3R19-UBF3gS-TzARhN-TzAiwJ-UBJp6G-UBGYzQ-TzAihq-UBF2Lo-Uh4HuA-UBF2uG-TRxj5z-TzwQWW-TSu99T-TSqwQT-SLDVyQ-9ET9go-9EQdyZ-9EQcx6-9ETbsY-9EQe9V-9ETaUy-9EQee8-9EQdN2-9EQdqR-9ETbeA-9EQduv-9ETbRo-9EQe32-9ETaxu-9ETbpN-9ETaPh-9EQct2-UbNRJH-UbNRYv-Uonm4x-UonkRZ-UonmuH-T9M8Xk-T6Z6MU-UbNRbD

For Manchester South it might be linked to the fact it is a rather rare UK Ansaldo installation although the approach is more common now on new schemes as it means that electrical detection of each end is independent.
Providing a lever for each point end was a very common practice on the LNWR Andrew, I was just surprised that it had carried over to the Manchester South resignalling. Thanks for explaining the thought behind it though.

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Manchester South FAQ 16/12/2018 at 02:05 #114047
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GeoffM in post 114042 said:
Single ended crossovers are more forgiving in times of failure - if the other end is on another track but not detected, it may be possible to get clear signals on this track. Depends on facing Vs trailing.

Conversely there is more locking and thus cost required for single ended crossovers.
There is always a trade-off somewhere, in this case between installation cost and future flexibility in a failure situation.

DY683 points at Stenson Jn near Derby were a 4-ended set which could be prone to giving problems so in the mid-90's they were fitted with split detection which I think was A&B, C and D. It meant that if one end on the Castle Donington branch lost detection we could still at least talk by on the main lines as long as the relevant ends had normal detection.

Last edited: 16/12/2018 at 02:06 by Phil-jmw
Reason: None given

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Manchester South FAQ 16/12/2018 at 15:57 #114078
Splodge
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Splodge in post 114026 said:
0K99 hasn't entered from Northwich East - its now an hour late. It isn't showing as entered, and has no rules prohibiting its entry.
To add to this, nor has 6F90

There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway.
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Manchester South FAQ 16/12/2018 at 20:20 #114080
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Phil-jmw in post 114047 said:
GeoffM in post 114042 said:
Single ended crossovers are more forgiving in times of failure - if the other end is on another track but not detected, it may be possible to get clear signals on this track. Depends on facing Vs trailing.

Conversely there is more locking and thus cost required for single ended crossovers.
There is always a trade-off somewhere, in this case between installation cost and future flexibility in a failure situation.

And partially it's just part of "that's how things have always been done" - as far as I'm aware, Germany for example has been using single-ended points almost exclusively since way back.

Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick.
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Manchester South FAQ 17/12/2018 at 00:15 #114085
pedroathome
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Splodge in post 114078 said:
Splodge in post 114026 said:
0K99 hasn't entered from Northwich East - its now an hour late. It isn't showing as entered, and has no rules prohibiting its entry.
To add to this, nor has 6F90
Going away from my initial suspicions, it looks like if a train has aready left the sim at Northwich, the sim is not leting another train enter. I have identified the issue, and an update will be available shortly.

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Manchester South FAQ 17/12/2018 at 00:25 #114086
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Jan in post 114080 said:
Phil-jmw in post 114047 said:
GeoffM in post 114042 said:
Single ended crossovers are more forgiving in times of failure - if the other end is on another track but not detected, it may be possible to get clear signals on this track. Depends on facing Vs trailing.

Conversely there is more locking and thus cost required for single ended crossovers.
There is always a trade-off somewhere, in this case between installation cost and future flexibility in a failure situation.

And partially it's just part of "that's how things have always been done" - as far as I'm aware, Germany for example has been using single-ended points almost exclusively since way back.
In Germany maybe, but not so common in the UK, hence the surprise.

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Manchester South FAQ 17/12/2018 at 09:10 #114095
kbarber
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Phil-jmw in post 114086 said:
Jan in post 114080 said:
Phil-jmw in post 114047 said:
GeoffM in post 114042 said:
Single ended crossovers are more forgiving in times of failure - if the other end is on another track but not detected, it may be possible to get clear signals on this track. Depends on facing Vs trailing.

Conversely there is more locking and thus cost required for single ended crossovers.
There is always a trade-off somewhere, in this case between installation cost and future flexibility in a failure situation.

And partially it's just part of "that's how things have always been done" - as far as I'm aware, Germany for example has been using single-ended points almost exclusively since way back.
In Germany maybe, but not so common in the UK, hence the surprise.
I have a suspicion this has its roots way back when. As Phil says, single- ended points were the norm on the LNWR. Richard Foster, in his book on LNWR signalling, says it was a confirmed policy - it led to less stress on the rodding, made everything easier to set up and therefore was considered more economical (less work for the S&T). The Midland went to the other extreme of course, with 'economical' FPLs (FPL driven by the same lever as the ponts) very common; they considered it more economical because you needed less levers even though it meant a complex drive mechanism and sometimes difficulties setting everything up. Most of the UK companies went for the halfway house of working both ends of a crossover off the same lever, but separate FPLs. After the grouping that becme the norm for all 4 companies. Of course once point machines with built-in FPLs came in, habit dictated that the old practice of working both ends with one lever continued, and that way of setting things up continued into panel design.

Trapping arrangements could add considerable complexity of course, albeit mainly in the interlocking, especially where you had a double crossover between lines paired by use. Some of that used to be included in panel design, although I'm not sure whether it is still the norm in this age of TPWS and all the other anti-SPAD initiatives.

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Manchester South FAQ 17/12/2018 at 15:39 #114100
whatlep
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Two questions re locations/ timetabling:

1) From memory, I think "Murgatroyds Siding" is what the location list refers to as "Sandbach Hays Chemicals" (actually part of BP)? If so, what key points need to be included to obtain a valid timetable path from Sandbach station to those sidings?
2) Middlewich British Salt does not appear to have a location specified in the locations list, nor is it a valid entry/exit point. Or am I missing something?

EDIT - one other item noted. The line codes when timetabling heading south from Sandbach have FL/SL as options, though onscreen designations are Up/Down Wilmslow for the fast/ passenger lines and up/down Manchester Independent for the slow/ goods lines as per the Sectional Appendix. Deliberate to make timetabling easier?

Last edited: 18/12/2018 at 14:55 by whatlep
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Manchester South FAQ 18/12/2018 at 17:04 #114148
whatlep
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Further issue - trains entering from Northwich South Jn

There seems to be something preventing trains entering from Northwich if a train has previously used the line from Sandbach northbound. Using the attached file, starting at 00:00 northbound trains work fine, but trains due to enter at Northwich never appear. With a start time of 02:40 the southbound train due at 02.41MX works fine.

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