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Railtour with multiple loco changes 06/02/2019 at 13:49 #115418
HST125Scorton
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Patherfinders & DRS are running a tour this Satruday (9th) called 'The Blue Boys Loco Fest'
http://www.pathfindertours.co.uk/events/the-blue-boys-loco-fest-enthusiast-railtour-2/

Planned:
Class 37s: Chaddesden Yard – Sunny Hill Down Goods – Uttoxeter Down Goods – Stoke – Stockport – Ashton Moss North Junction – Brewery Curve – Castleton Down Goods- Todmorden – Copy Pit – Blackburn.
Class 66: Blackburn – Preston Down Goods Lines – Blackpool North.
Class 88: Blackpool North – Preston Up Goods Lines – Warrington – Crewe.
--

Now the train is formed of 11 coaches unknown yet but I believe it could be 9x Mk2s & 2x Mk1s [219m] then the locos themselves [257m]. I'm planning to write this tour into a timetable on 'Preston Sim' yet to be released.. but not sure how to go about it without warning errors.
Train arrives into Blackburn P4 then shunts to Blackburn Bolton Jn where it will set back into the UDG. This is when the Class 37s [19m] each detach and head back to Crewe Gresty Bridge. In this time 2 locos will arrive namely a 66 [21m] and 88 [23m] they will split at Blackburn upon arrival and the 66 will shunt via Blackburn Bolton Jn where it will set back into the UDG to attach to the train while the 88 will do the same but via Daisyfield Rev and set back onto the rear of the train making it [263m] before the 66 takes the lot one more time via Blackburn Bolton Jn back into Blackburn before heading to Preston & Blackpool North.

This will then lead to in accurate length issues cause I'm [6m] short from the original train that entered so is there any ideas that would help me?

Aaron (AJRO)
Last edited: 06/02/2019 at 13:54 by HST125Scorton
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Railtour with multiple loco changes 06/02/2019 at 14:36 #115420
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You shouldnt get any errors

Train arrives Blackburn 257m detach 37s = 219m, Join 66 = 240m and Join 88 = 263m

That shouldnt throw up any length warnings as the sim auto corrects lengths for attach/detach moves

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Railtour with multiple loco changes 06/02/2019 at 15:42 #115422
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Meld in post 115420 said:
You shouldnt get any errors

Train arrives Blackburn 257m detach 37s = 219m, Join 66 = 240m and Join 88 = 263m

That shouldnt throw up any length warnings as the sim auto corrects lengths for attach/detach moves
Not relevant to this situation but not always correct as it sometimes depends on the rounding. For example a Gronk (8m.) pulls 2 x BG from the back of a train. Each BG is 17.3m so a length of 34.6m that has to be rounded to 35m. as SimSig only works in whole metres giving a consist length of 43m. It hooks one BG onto the back of another train so the new Gronk + BG consist becomes 43 -17m. (17.3m rounded to the nearest metre) or 26m. The Gronk then drops the remaining BG into a bay and a length error is recorded in the timetable analysis for the BG because the sim reads the situation as Gronk + BG (26m. in its current counting) minus 8m. for the Gronk =18m. However, the train type for a BG records the length as 17m giving a discrepancy of 1m.

I put a request for comments about this onto Mantis on 09/08/17 which has not drawn any comments as yet!

"Early to rise and early to bed make a man healthy, wealthy and dead." - James Thurber (08/12/1894 - 02/11/1961), American writer and cartoonist,
Last edited: 06/02/2019 at 15:43 by postal
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Railtour with multiple loco changes 06/02/2019 at 16:31 #115424
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I'll reply here once I get the timings for the charter in full via RTT and add it all into the timetable and see where I go from here.
Aaron (AJRO)
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Railtour with multiple loco changes 06/02/2019 at 16:47 #115425
58050
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All i'd say about this with regards to vehicles lengths regarding loco hauled coaching stock there are 2 different lengths for each vehicle type. In the BR M&EE technical drawing book(which is what i use when creating timetables) for Loco Hauled Coaching Stock there is one length for gangways coupled & another length for gangways uncoupled. For example for a second open Mk.2c the vehicle length gangways coupled is 20.377m, but gangways uncoupled is 20.453m. Even in the BR M&EE technical drawing book for NPCCS all of the BG, GUV, Newspaper vans, TPOs all have 2 different lengths dependant on whether they are coupled with gangways or don't have gangways. At the end of the day it depends on how accurate you want to be.
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Railtour with multiple loco changes 06/02/2019 at 17:08 #115426
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Until (or, *if*) we implement decimal places then I would suggest rounding each vehicle to a whole number if divides/joins are to take place.
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Railtour with multiple loco changes 06/02/2019 at 17:25 #115427
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58050 in post 115425 said:
All i'd say about this with regards to vehicles lengths regarding loco hauled coaching stock there are 2 different lengths for each vehicle type. In the BR M&EE technical drawing book(which is what i use when creating timetables) for Loco Hauled Coaching Stock there is one length for gangways coupled & another length for gangways uncoupled. For example for a second open Mk.2c the vehicle length gangways coupled is 20.377m, but gangways uncoupled is 20.453m. Even in the BR M&EE technical drawing book for NPCCS all of the BG, GUV, Newspaper vans, TPOs all have 2 different lengths dependant on whether they are coupled with gangways or don't have gangways.
Are the distances between the axles different between gangwayed and non-gangwayed? As it's the wheels that operate track circuits?

More generally, it's worth putting things in perspective: in a worse-case scenario (individual vehicle lengths rounded by 0.5m), for a 20 vehicle train the total error is 10m- which isn't much.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
Last edited: 06/02/2019 at 17:26 by Steamer
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Railtour with multiple loco changes 06/02/2019 at 17:41 #115429
GeoffM
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Steamer in post 115427 said:
58050 in post 115425 said:
All i'd say about this with regards to vehicles lengths regarding loco hauled coaching stock there are 2 different lengths for each vehicle type. In the BR M&EE technical drawing book(which is what i use when creating timetables) for Loco Hauled Coaching Stock there is one length for gangways coupled & another length for gangways uncoupled. For example for a second open Mk.2c the vehicle length gangways coupled is 20.377m, but gangways uncoupled is 20.453m. Even in the BR M&EE technical drawing book for NPCCS all of the BG, GUV, Newspaper vans, TPOs all have 2 different lengths dependant on whether they are coupled with gangways or don't have gangways.
Are the distances between the axles different between gangwayed and non-gangwayed? As it's the wheels that operate track circuits?
Not sure whether that was a general interest question, or related to SimSig. We don't go to that detail, of course - nor do we cover TCs that overlap slightly (jointless mostly), though we're talking an overlap of just 5-20m max if I recall my basic training correctly. The amount of work to achieve such would be quite a lot and frankly I doubt even the rivet counters would notice any difference.

Steamer in post 115427 said:
More generally, it's worth putting things in perspective: in a worse-case scenario (individual vehicle lengths rounded by 0.5m), for a 20 vehicle train the total error is 10m- which isn't much.
Quite! We do usually add 10-20m in sims for buffer space anyway in the shorter loops, and for bay platforms or platforms with signals at both ends.

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Railtour with multiple loco changes 06/02/2019 at 18:23 #115433
jc92
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I round vehicle lengths to the nearest metre

Eg: Short frame Mk1: 18m
Long frame Mk1: 19m
Mk2: 20m
Class 47:19m
Class 40: 20m
Class 31:17m

It adds the odd metre here and there but removes any complications surrounding joins and splits of stock or locos.

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Railtour with multiple loco changes 06/02/2019 at 21:18 #115440
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Ok the paths are now live, I'm going to work on these tonight at somepoint and update if I run into any issues

Blackburn:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/BBN/2019/02/09/0000-2359?stp=S&show=freight&order=wtt

Aaron (AJRO)
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Railtour with multiple loco changes 06/02/2019 at 22:32 #115441
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Ok with results it worked after the 7th attempt as I had the joins slightly messed up and they argued that the train was incorrect to the next working...




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Railtour with multiple loco changes 06/02/2019 at 22:40 #115442
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And also thanks to all for the comments and advice. Really appreciate the help as I'm not so good when it comes to tours that decide to switch locos.. unit wise I'm ok..
Aaron (AJRO)
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Railtour with multiple loco changes 06/02/2019 at 23:23 #115443
northroad
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HST125Scorton in post 115441 said:
Ok with results it worked after the 7th attempt as I had the joins slightly messed up and they argued that the train was incorrect to the next working...



As this Sim does not appear to be on the release schedule is there any chance of a sneak preview and if not should this have been on the devs posts only.....or am I missing something.

Never apologise son, it's a sign of weakness (John Wayne)
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Railtour with multiple loco changes 06/02/2019 at 23:32 #115444
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northroad in post 115443 said:
HST125Scorton in post 115441 said:
Ok with results it worked after the 7th attempt as I had the joins slightly messed up and they argued that the train was incorrect to the next working...



As this Sim does not appear to be on the release schedule is there any chance of a sneak preview and if not should this have been on the devs posts only.....or am I missing something.
The simulation was publicly previewed at the Preston meet in June 2018. There's where couple of photos floating around somewhere, though I'm not sure if it was the wiki or forum.

"CHECK Do you stop at Capenhurst?" - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Railtour with multiple loco changes 07/02/2019 at 08:08 #115447
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headshot119 in post 115444 said:
northroad in post 115443 said:
HST125Scorton in post 115441 said:
Ok with results it worked after the 7th attempt as I had the joins slightly messed up and they argued that the train was incorrect to the next working...



As this Sim does not appear to be on the release schedule is there any chance of a sneak preview and if not should this have been on the devs posts only.....or am I missing something.
The simulation was publicly previewed at the Preston meet in June 2018. There's where couple of photos floating around somewhere, though I'm not sure if it was the wiki or forum.
I can’t post this into the Developer side of the forum as I’m not allowed it seemed. Plus I’m not a Developer so kind of equals.

As for the Preston Sim, I have a copy as I’m helping the developer of the sim which involves the current modern eras with testing/bug splatting/new features etc.

I do respect the Developer for allowing me to help with the Preston Sim along with others, I believe a lot of progress has been made throughout, for me been able to do this I had to create my own timetables for the eras I'm testing/bug reporting.

A photo of the sim Preston station I posted on a fourm post
https://www.simsig.co.uk/Forum/PostView/109725

Aaron (AJRO)
Last edited: 07/02/2019 at 09:30 by HST125Scorton
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Railtour with multiple loco changes 07/02/2019 at 13:37 #115450
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Thanks for the answers guys

The problem is like the old saying and that is you cannot get enough of a good thing and the wait is always worth it though.

Never apologise son, it's a sign of weakness (John Wayne)
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Railtour with multiple loco changes 07/02/2019 at 14:50 #115451
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Cause the image isn't clear, here is a screenshot from a clear screen.
Trains you see are from my 'Preston October 2018' timetable which is for the era I'm testing/bug splatting..


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Railtour with multiple loco changes 21/02/2019 at 23:13 #115900
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If you need to 'recode' the train later, say as it does some ECS somewhere or just the return is a new TD, then you will need a train type with the new length.
I have the same with Gunnie Cement on Motherwell, it has 2 lengths 2 weights and 4 TD so I have 'Gunnie1' 'Gunnie2' and 'Gunnie3'.
In case you wonder, 'Gunnie1' changes length but stays in sim and same TD so is OK doing that, exactly your scenario.

Bill

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Railtour with multiple loco changes 17/03/2019 at 13:49 #116418
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I'm bring this post back up..
I'm having great difficulty with a charter from yesterday namely the Cumbrian Coast Express that I'm planning to feature in a future timetable.

Update: If I reduce 86259 + 10 Mk1 at 213m to 86259 + 10 Mk1 at 212m the warning goes and looks ok. So seems I've had to cut a Mk1 down a touch.

SC - Support Coach

I have the following:
8F 48151 + SC at 39m
8F 48151 + SC + 10 Mk1 at 233m
86259 at 18m
86259 + 10 Mk1 at 213m

48151 arrives and uncouples from the 10 Mk1s, making it 8F 48151 + SC at 39m
86259 arrives and couples to the 10Mk1, making it 86259 + 10 Mk1 at 213m

Yet I'm getting a warning of length issue? 0Z89/$U55280: Length 212m not the same as next working 1Z87/$U55279-B at 'Hidden Location'

Aaron (AJRO)
Last edited: 17/03/2019 at 14:06 by HST125Scorton
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Railtour with multiple loco changes 17/03/2019 at 16:11 #116422
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HST125Scorton in post 116418 said:
I'm bring this post back up..
I'm having great difficulty with a charter from yesterday namely the Cumbrian Coast Express that I'm planning to feature in a future timetable.

Update: If I reduce 86259 + 10 Mk1 at 213m to 86259 + 10 Mk1 at 212m the warning goes and looks ok. So seems I've had to cut a Mk1 down a touch.

SC - Support Coach

I have the following:
8F 48151 + SC at 39m
8F 48151 + SC + 10 Mk1 at 233m
86259 at 18m
86259 + 10 Mk1 at 213m

48151 arrives and uncouples from the 10 Mk1s, making it 8F 48151 + SC at 39m
86259 arrives and couples to the 10Mk1, making it 86259 + 10 Mk1 at 213m

Yet I'm getting a warning of length issue? 0Z89/$U55280: Length 212m not the same as next working 1Z87/$U55279-B at 'Hidden Location'
The reason you've had to change the length in the train type is because of the arithmetic.

Arriving train 233m. Detach 8F & SC (39m.) residual length 194m.
Cl.86 (18m.) couples on to residual length. New train length as calculated = 194+18 = 212m.

If you have a train type set up for Cl.86 + 10Mk1 at 213m. then there is a discrepancy of 1m. between the calculated length and the length set into the TT by the train type triggering the warning in the analyser which you have solved by editing the length in the train type.

If you work in whole metres rather than using decimal places in the length of an individual Mk.1 you would have a maximum error of say 5m. in a consist of 10 x Mk. 1. If the individual length is set at 17.50m. (consist length 175m.) then setting to whole metres (17m. or 18m.) gives a consist length 5m. adrift from the real calculated length. You can either live with the TT warning or live with an incorrect length. However, if you live with the warning and you have other similar instances in the TT it is easy to miss a genuine mistake when going through the analyser results because it is lost in the errors produced by the decimal lengths.

"Early to rise and early to bed make a man healthy, wealthy and dead." - James Thurber (08/12/1894 - 02/11/1961), American writer and cartoonist,
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Railtour with multiple loco changes 17/03/2019 at 19:09 #116426
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postal in post 116422 said:
HST125Scorton in post 116418 said:
I'm bring this post back up..
I'm having great difficulty with a charter from yesterday namely the Cumbrian Coast Express that I'm planning to feature in a future timetable.

Update: If I reduce 86259 + 10 Mk1 at 213m to 86259 + 10 Mk1 at 212m the warning goes and looks ok. So seems I've had to cut a Mk1 down a touch.

SC - Support Coach

I have the following:
8F 48151 + SC at 39m
8F 48151 + SC + 10 Mk1 at 233m
86259 at 18m
86259 + 10 Mk1 at 213m

48151 arrives and uncouples from the 10 Mk1s, making it 8F 48151 + SC at 39m
86259 arrives and couples to the 10Mk1, making it 86259 + 10 Mk1 at 213m

Yet I'm getting a warning of length issue? 0Z89/$U55280: Length 212m not the same as next working 1Z87/$U55279-B at 'Hidden Location'
The reason you've had to change the length in the train type is because of the arithmetic.

Arriving train 233m. Detach 8F & SC (39m.) residual length 194m.
Cl.86 (18m.) couples on to residual length. New train length as calculated = 194+18 = 212m.

If you have a train type set up for Cl.86 + 10Mk1 at 213m. then there is a discrepancy of 1m. between the calculated length and the length set into the TT by the train type triggering the warning in the analyser which you have solved by editing the length in the train type.

If you work in whole metres rather than using decimal places in the length of an individual Mk.1 you would have a maximum error of say 5m. in a consist of 10 x Mk. 1. If the individual length is set at 17.50m. (consist length 175m.) then setting to whole metres (17m. or 18m.) gives a consist length 5m. adrift from the real calculated length. You can either live with the TT warning or live with an incorrect length. However, if you live with the warning and you have other similar instances in the TT it is easy to miss a genuine mistake when going through the analyser results because it is lost in the errors produced by the decimal lengths.
Thanks again Postal, I decided to leave it at 212m after all. I ripped the information off the 'Railway PC' and it worked out at 213m or 698ft as signallers till refer to ft than meters.. 212m is 695ft of the PC.

Aaron (AJRO)
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Railtour with multiple loco changes 17/03/2019 at 19:38 #116427
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HST125Scorton in post 116426 said:
Thanks again Postal, I decided to leave it at 212m after all. I ripped the information off the 'Railway PC' and it worked out at 213m or 698ft as signallers till refer to ft than meters.. 212m is 695ft of the PC.
Of course you noticed my typo about the length of a Mk.1. I got so used to writing the BG and GUV shunts in the Carlisle TT that I am conditioned to think of a coach length at 17 and a bit metres not 19 and bit!

There is an Excel calculator in the Downloads section which calculates the length of a consist and lists most of the common locos, coaches, freight vehicles and units. You can also add your own items if they are not in the list in the calculator.

"Early to rise and early to bed make a man healthy, wealthy and dead." - James Thurber (08/12/1894 - 02/11/1961), American writer and cartoonist,
Last edited: 17/03/2019 at 19:43 by postal
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