Enhancement to make multi-seed TTs simpler

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Enhancement to make multi-seed TTs simpler 06/08/2019 at 10:40 #119912
postal
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When a multi-seed TT is created there will probably be some trains that seed in more than one of the groups e.g. a train berthed overnight at the platform to depart at 06:30. This requires separate seeds for the typical 00:00, 04:45 and 06:00 seed groups then some fudging about having a N working at the platform or three separate full TTs. It all looks a bit messy.

Would it be possible (and would it make sense) to have a default setting where a train with the seed train box checked on the front tab of its TT but no seed group selected automatically seeds no matter which seeding time is selected?

"No question is too stupid, there are just some stupid answers" - Dr. Michael Reece, 12/08/1927 - 03/06/2019. Electrical engineer and inventor
Last edited: 06/08/2019 at 11:23 by postal
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Enhancement to make multi-seed TTs simpler 06/08/2019 at 13:37 #119914
9pN1SEAp
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A seed might be valid for an 0600 start but not a 1400 start. Perhaps a ‘seed if TT start is before scheduled departure’ logic could apply?

As a workaround now a dummy with next working might minimise some duplication.

Jamie S (JAMS)
Last edited: 06/08/2019 at 13:37 by 9pN1SEAp
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Enhancement to make multi-seed TTs simpler 06/08/2019 at 14:15 #119916
Meld
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It doesn't matter if you have to have the same seed multiple times, any later seed group will mark all the previous seed groups as entered.

You can have an identical seed in a 0000 and an 0400 start.

Set up the 0000 seed with the next working, then its a simple case of copying the 0000 with no time or TD increment and setting its seed group to 0400. The next working will copy over with the schedule.

There may be the odd occasion where an activity has taken place on the seed between the 2 seed groups. All you do is recreate the 0400 as before edit the association and train type as required

For example
You have 6/185 seed in P5 at Sheffield with a DR 1B01 N 1B03 in the 0000 seed 1B01 departs 0230, you then duplicate the seed for 0400 editing the traintype to 3/185 and just delete the DR 1B01 from the seeds activity list.

Simple enough and takes a couple of seconds.

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Enhancement to make multi-seed TTs simpler 06/08/2019 at 16:21 #119917
postal
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@Meld

All simple enough but leaves the TT looking messy (and possibly confusing to people who are not as well versed in timetabling as you are) which is what I was trying to avoid.

"No question is too stupid, there are just some stupid answers" - Dr. Michael Reece, 12/08/1927 - 03/06/2019. Electrical engineer and inventor
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Enhancement to make multi-seed TTs simpler 06/08/2019 at 16:57 #119918
MarkC
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I cannot see whats wrong with it now, you have trains you need to seed at the apporpiate time Default (0000) 0400, etc, as appropiate to the TT author, so you create a train and seed it in the seeding group required, duplicating the train if needed for different seed times and making adjustments as needed (ie stock lengths and activites for actions that may have happened between seeding times).

If you start adding seeding options like seed in all seeding groups you then start adding new issues, 1st it would add more complexity for aspiring TT writers as they would most likely question which option to use, 2nd mainly in the case of Melds TT you then create addition issues as there are 1400 starts so adding an seed to all seed groups would not be appropiate, a solution would be to add an seed exclusion but again this would start to add more comlexity to creating a timetable.

It's not my fault! I was left unsupervised.
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Enhancement to make multi-seed TTs simpler 06/08/2019 at 17:20 #119919
postal
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MarkC in post 119918 said:
. . . but again this would start to add more comlexity to creating a timetable.
So the discussion is coming down to whether we should look to make things easier for the user to read or to make things easier for the TT creator. The issue I had in mind in creating the topic was to make it easier for the TT user from the wider community to read rather than trying to satisfy the narrow world of TT writers.

"No question is too stupid, there are just some stupid answers" - Dr. Michael Reece, 12/08/1927 - 03/06/2019. Electrical engineer and inventor
Last edited: 06/08/2019 at 17:25 by postal
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Enhancement to make multi-seed TTs simpler 06/08/2019 at 17:43 #119922
Meld
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postal in post 119919 said:
MarkC in post 119918 said:
. . . but again this would start to add more comlexity to creating a timetable.
So the discussion is coming down to whether we should look to make things easier for the user to read or to make things easier for the TT creator. The issue I had in mind in creating the topic was to make it easier for the TT user from the wider community to read rather than trying to satisfy the narrow world of TT writers.
Not at all John - Just opened the Staffs 19 TT on a 0400 start - all 0000 & 1400 seeds are greyed out and when you click on hide entered all you get is the 0400 TT.

I am a strong believer in the KISS principle and and for the end user I dont think checking on checkbox to hide entered trains should be a major issue

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Enhancement to make multi-seed TTs simpler 06/08/2019 at 18:02 #119923
GeoffM
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postal in post 119912 said:
Would it be possible (and would it make sense) to have a default setting where a train with the seed train box checked on the front tab of its TT but no seed group selected automatically seeds no matter which seeding time is selected?
"No seed group selected" is already used - that's the [TT start] option which, internally, is no group. That was done to ensure compatibility with existing timetables.

SimSig Boss
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Enhancement to make multi-seed TTs simpler 06/08/2019 at 18:48 #119925
postal
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GeoffM in post 119923 said:
postal in post 119912 said:
Would it be possible (and would it make sense) to have a default setting where a train with the seed train box checked on the front tab of its TT but no seed group selected automatically seeds no matter which seeding time is selected?
"No seed group selected" is already used - that's the [TT start] option which, internally, is no group. That was done to ensure compatibility with existing timetables.
Geoff

Could you explain how that works a bit more for me please. I am sorting out the TT for an unreleased sim which will have 00:00 and 04:45 seed times. In the TT I have set a 04:45 seeding group and also have seeds that enter when the TT starts at 00:00. When I open the loader and select the TT I have four options displayed:

1. Custom without seeding
2. Default (00:00) with seeding
3. Default (00:00) without seeding
4. Seed at 04:45

When I look at an individual train TT, the Seeding Group dropdown gives me two options:

1. TT start
2. 04:45

That means that the TT has to have half a dozen trains berthed overnight with duplicated TTs having identical TDs/UIDs and identical locations and timings, only differentiated by the seeding group selected. So far there has been lots of talk about KISS and it being easy to hide the trains you don't want to see. That is not the question I have. The question I have is why is it necessary to have the identical TTs in the first place? Could some tweak to the seeding code avoid the need for the duplication (which to my mind is a far better application of the KISS principle)? Could the "no seed group selected" perhaps be added as an option in the train TT dropdown box? Currently if you create a new train and tick the seed train check box, the drop-down defaults to TT start and you only have the option to select TT start or 04:45 seeding groups. You can't leave the drop-down box blank.

"No question is too stupid, there are just some stupid answers" - Dr. Michael Reece, 12/08/1927 - 03/06/2019. Electrical engineer and inventor
Last edited: 06/08/2019 at 19:06 by postal
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Enhancement to make multi-seed TTs simpler 06/08/2019 at 19:06 #119927
GeoffM
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postal in post 119925 said:
GeoffM in post 119923 said:
postal in post 119912 said:
Would it be possible (and would it make sense) to have a default setting where a train with the seed train box checked on the front tab of its TT but no seed group selected automatically seeds no matter which seeding time is selected?
"No seed group selected" is already used - that's the [TT start] option which, internally, is no group. That was done to ensure compatibility with existing timetables.
Geoff

Could you explain how that works a bit more for me please. I am sorting out the TT for an unreleased sim which will have 00:00 and 04:45 seed times. In the TT I have set a 04:45 seeding group and also have seeds that enter when the TT starts at 00:00. When I open the loader and select the TT I have four options displayed:

A1. Custom without seeding
A2. Default (00:00) with seeding
A3. Default (00:00) without seeding
A4. Seed at 04:45

When I look at an individual train TT, the Seeding Group dropdown gives me two options:

B1. TT start
B2. 04:45

That means that the TT has to have half a dozen trains berthed overnight with duplicated TTs having identical TDs/UIDs and identical locations and timings, only differentiated by the seeding group selected. So far there has been lots of talk about KISS and it being easy to hide the trains you don't want to see. That is not the question I have. The question I have is why is it necessary to have the identical TTs in the first place? Could some tweak to the seeding code avoid the need for the duplication (which to my mind is a far better application of the KISS principle)? Could the "no seed group selected" perhaps be added as an option in the train TT dropdown box?
B1 maps to A2. If you don't select a seeding group it defaults to TT start which is startup option A2.

Since "no group" is already used, it can't also be used to mean something else.

Granted, if a seed appears in multiple seeding groups (potentially including "no group"), you would need to hit the duplicate button and spend a few seconds tweaking the group. It increases the complexity though, since you now have a multi-select instead of a zero or one option. At this point I don't foresee multi-select being a priority option - there are other issues you raised with decisions etc that I feel are more pressing.

SimSig Boss
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Enhancement to make multi-seed TTs simpler 06/08/2019 at 19:10 #119928
postal
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Geoff

Thanks. Again a bit of confusion as I was editing while you were posting. Understand that there are other more pressing priorities so we'll leave this dormant.

"No question is too stupid, there are just some stupid answers" - Dr. Michael Reece, 12/08/1927 - 03/06/2019. Electrical engineer and inventor
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Enhancement to make multi-seed TTs simpler 06/08/2019 at 22:08 #119934
broodje
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Last edited: 06/08/2019 at 22:09 by broodje
Reason: oops, sory for that Can't remove the post anymore

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