1B67 refuses to past unlit signal.

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1B67 refuses to past unlit signal. 25/11/2019 at 18:58 #121926
Trainfan344
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1B67 is sat on Platform 3 at Stockport, the signal, ST2-F has failed infront of it. In the attached save the driver rings up to gain permission to pass unlit signal ST2-F, If you select examine the line and pass unlit signal the driver then instantly rings up to say the line is clear and goes back to sitting at stockport before eventually ringing in again for permission to pass the unlit signal, again requesting him to examine the line has the same effect.
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1B67 refuses to past unlit signal. 26/11/2019 at 10:03 #121937
Phil-jmw
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You should only be instructing the driver to pass the unlit signal. You only need to examine the line for a track circuit failure.
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1B67 refuses to past unlit signal. 27/11/2019 at 08:26 #121952
sorabain
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In the real world what happens in these circumstances?

Would the driver be expected to drive very cautiously to next signal as if the line might be obstructed (treating it as if that unlit signal was itself red), or just drive as if the next signal is red (can go a bit faster), or does the signaller give some indication of what the aspect should have been so they can get up to a higher speed (sounds very risky)?

Last edited: 27/11/2019 at 08:56 by sorabain
Reason: None given

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1B67 refuses to past unlit signal. 27/11/2019 at 09:05 #121953
kbarber
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sorabain in post 121952 said:
In the real world what happens in these circumstances? Would the driver be expected to drive very cautiously to next signal (like 15mph), or drive as if the next signal is red, or does the signaller give some indication of what the aspect would have been so they can get up to line speed?
The requirement would always be to proceed with caution, whether or not examining the line. If the next signal is dark, the driver would have to stop there and ring in anyway; except where special arrangements are published (sometimes happens for signalling work, when a form of ticket working may be introduced) or perhaps for temporary absolute block working in emergency (signalling knocked out over a significant stretch of railway), it is not permissible for a driver to be authorised to pass more than one signal at danger in any one message. I have an idea that, even in TBW, the driver needs to be given a written authority stating the limits within which signals may be passed without further authority. Certainly for ticket working during engineering the limits are published in the WON.

Authorising passing of more than one signal is a bit dodgy, if you think about it. If an emergency arose that required the dark signal to be be returned to danger int he driver's face, you wouldn't want him continuing on his merry way thinking all was well. I suspect there's a degree of risk assessment (formal or otherwise) in the case of engineering or TBW; there would be less trains than usual in any case (Sunday, or emergency timetable) which would reduce risk still further, and drivers would be on alert for anything out of course.

'Caution' is, of course, a rather flexible word and is at the discretion of the driver. In a dense suburban area where the next three signals are clearly visible (and the dark one rather obvious), a driver might proceed in a fairly normal manner (normal speed in that area being unlikely to exceed 40mph in any case and probably rather lower). After dark during fog or falling snow in a rural location with longish sections and poor sighting at the best of times, a driver would be insane to run normally. But the actual speed (and how it varies within the length of the section) would, again, be a matter of discretion - or at least that's how it used to be.

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1B67 refuses to past unlit signal. 27/11/2019 at 10:29 #121954
jc92
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kbarber in post 121953 said:

'Caution' is, of course, a rather flexible word and is at the discretion of the driver. In a dense suburban area where the next three signals are clearly visible (and the dark one rather obvious), a driver might proceed in a fairly normal manner (normal speed in that area being unlikely to exceed 40mph in any case and probably rather lower). After dark during fog or falling snow in a rural location with longish sections and poor sighting at the best of times, a driver would be insane to run normally. But the actual speed (and how it varies within the length of the section) would, again, be a matter of discretion - or at least that's how it used to be.
Coppenhall junction was the first thing this made me think of. Pitch black, held at a red and unable to contact Winsford box so the driver proceeded at caution at around 30mph into the back of the train in front.

Interestingly In simsig, trains that have been authorised past a signal at danger don't seem to run at caution at all, compared to them being asked to inspect the line.

Last edited: 27/11/2019 at 10:30 by jc92
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1B67 refuses to past unlit signal. 27/11/2019 at 11:48 #121956
lazzer
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kbarber in post 121953 said:
'Caution' is, of course, a rather flexible word and is at the discretion of the driver. In a dense suburban area where the next three signals are clearly visible (and the dark one rather obvious), a driver might proceed in a fairly normal manner (normal speed in that area being unlikely to exceed 40mph in any case and probably rather lower). After dark during fog or falling snow in a rural location with longish sections and poor sighting at the best of times, a driver would be insane to run normally. But the actual speed (and how it varies within the length of the section) would, again, be a matter of discretion - or at least that's how it used to be.
I always remember being taught that "Caution" is a speed at which you are able to stop upon sighting an obstruction or stop signal ahead. Essentially, it's how comfortable you are with being able to stop the train in any given circumstances. I certainly never go above 40mph, whatever the conditions or signal sighting.

New drivers often seem to struggle with it, as they insist on being given a fixed speed for "caution", probably because they don't want the responsibility of choosing it themselves

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1B67 refuses to past unlit signal. 27/11/2019 at 14:13 #121960
TUT
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sorabain in post 121952 said:
In the real world what happens in these circumstances?

Would the driver be expected to drive very cautiously to next signal as if the line might be obstructed (treating it as if that unlit signal was itself red), or just drive as if the next signal is red (can go a bit faster), or does the signaller give some indication of what the aspect should have been so they can get up to a higher speed (sounds very risky)?
You would treat the unlit signal as a signal at danger and authorise the driver to pass the signal in accordance with the requirements of Rule Book module S5.

Quote:
9 Allowing a train to pass a defective or disconnected stop signal

9.1 Passing the signal at danger

You must carry out the instructions in module S5 Passing a signal at danger or an end of authority (EoA) without a movement authority (MA) before authorising a driver to pass a stop signal that is:

• defective

• disconnected

not showing any aspect or indication

• missing

• held at danger by a failure of other signalling equipment.

(Module TS11: Failure of, or work on, signalling equipment - signallers' regulations)
So that means confirm the line is clear and safe for the passage of trains, place reminder appliances on any conflicting routes, manually set all points in the correct position using individual point controls and apply reminders, check that you have the correct detection on all points (in real life you would use route cards and, if possible, get the route checked by a competent person), call the route on the workstation (set it as you normally would), ensure any ground frame releases in the route are normal, place the barriers at any controlled level crossings into manual raise and manual lower and ensure the barriers are down.

You then tell the driver that they will be passing the the unlit signal at danger. You must tell them why (that will be obvious, but still), how far the movement may proceed, any instructions concerning infrastructure (SPAD indicators and level crossings), e.g.: approach the level crossing at caution and do not pass over it until you are sure it is safe to do so, and, finally, and above all, proceed at caution.

Last edited: 27/11/2019 at 14:13 by TUT
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1B67 refuses to past unlit signal. 27/11/2019 at 19:20 #121967
KymriskaDraken
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sorabain in post 121952 said:
In the real world what happens in these circumstances?

Would the driver be expected to drive very cautiously to next signal as if the line might be obstructed (treating it as if that unlit signal was itself red), or just drive as if the next signal is red (can go a bit faster), or does the signaller give some indication of what the aspect should have been so they can get up to a higher speed (sounds very risky)?
I used to inform the Driver, when he stopped at the signal that was held at Danger, that the signal in advance was black and that he should treat it as being at Danger. I then authorised him to pass the held signal at Danger, proceed with caution, be prepared to stop short of any obstruction and to call immediately on arrival at the black signal.

Kev

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