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Motherwell_1984_v3 Questions/Issues

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Motherwell_1984_v3 Questions/Issues 29/05/2020 at 20:26 #127215
swiftaw
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I'm playing my way through version 3 of the 1984 timetable, I'm up to 9am so far and I have a couple of questions/issues:

1. What is the correct routing for 0D53 running around at Coatbridge? I routed it into the spur but don't see anyway to get it from the spur to M253.

2. 1M12 is seeded at SM392 which is already passed Mossend South, so the TT doesn't step up, I'm guessing the first entry on the TT should be Motherwell.

3. OD15 to Eastfield says to route it via DR2, I think it should probably be DC.

4. I was surprised to see 1M15 (from Fort William) enter at Garqueen North rather than Gartcosh given what I saw when playing Central Scotland.

Thanks, if I stumble across anything else as I work my way through I'll post here.

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Motherwell_1984_v3 Questions/Issues 29/05/2020 at 23:40 #127223
sloppyjag
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Re (4); The southbound Fort William was attached to Glasgow to Inverness sleeper portion between Queen Street and Stirling then ran to Mossend from there. Would have been around 1984 it started going that way. Less faff with the Ethel I would guess.
Planotransitophobic!
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Motherwell_1984_v3 Questions/Issues 30/05/2020 at 05:50 #127225
swiftaw
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I'm not sure that is quite right for this timetable though since it joins with 1D15 (from Inverness) at Mossend.
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Motherwell_1984_v3 Questions/Issues 30/05/2020 at 10:48 #127229
Albert
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In that case the Fort William part should come from Gartcosh Jn and the Inverness part from Garnqueen North Jn.
AJP in games
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Motherwell_1984_v3 Questions/Issues 30/05/2020 at 12:57 #127240
sloppyjag
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swiftaw in post 127225 said:
I'm not sure that is quite right for this timetable though since it joins with 1D15 (from Inverness) at Mossend.
Went QS to Stirling (where it divided from Inverness portion) went Stirling to Mossend, usually with a 47/4 (where it joined 1D15). I was a spotty 16 year old on his first Freedom of Scotland pass when I experienced travelling on it. Also saw the Euston portion being added to the Inverness before catching last train home from Queen Street so it wasn't a one off.

Planotransitophobic!
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Motherwell_1984_v3 Questions/Issues 30/05/2020 at 13:06 #127241
bill_gensheet
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swiftaw in post 127215 said:
I'm playing my way through version 3 of the 1984 timetable, I'm up to 9am so far and I have a couple of questions/issues:

1. What is the correct routing for 0D53 running around at Coatbridge? I routed it into the spur but don't see anyway to get it from the spur to M253.

2. 1M12 is seeded at SM392 which is already passed Mossend South, so the TT doesn't step up, I'm guessing the first entry on the TT should be Motherwell.

3. OD15 to Eastfield says to route it via DR2, I think it should probably be DC.

4. I was surprised to see 1M15 (from Fort William) enter at Garqueen North rather than Gartcosh given what I saw when playing Central Scotland.

Thanks, if I stumble across anything else as I work my way through I'll post here.
Firstly, thanks for the reports. Things change over time and unless obvious sim authors will not always be able to keep up with the alterations to sim or core code behaviour.

1 - the line to Gartcosh. The train is 'platform 930' which in the 1980 era is signal GS9.

2 - Oddly it validates and analyses OK, and steps OK for me. This was required on earlier loader to get the train to enter under ARS. Either works so will change.

3 - Yes, thanks (surprised this validated but Mossend is so complex the checks cannot be exhaustive). Will fix

4 - Timetable is correct, but this is a long story....
The routeing did change a lot in the early ETHEL days and the earlier versions of the timetable had Eastfield - Gartcosh - lose ETHEL in Motherwell depot - magically reappear the right way round.
I did this as at least it tied in with data for some dates, although I was aware of the train going to Stirling and back at some point. Seems very few cranks ever did it southbound.
I now have more information on how the ETHEL re-appeared (0310 from Eastfield, 03:24 Gartcosh entry) and this is in the version 3 timetable.


Main source (thanks to Scot-rail group members):
RTCS Railway Observer, 1983 p461
"Glasgow: The prevalence of vandalism in the Cowlairs/Springburn area has caused alterations in the workings of the 22.36 Cowlairs - Carlisle SX, Mossend SO, the Fort William Sleepers. Since 8th August these have been detached from the parent 18:22 Fort William - Glasgow Queen St at Dumbarton Central and run forward on the electrified route via Low Level to Sunnyside Jct. and then by Whifflet Sth Jct to Carstairs.
From October 3rd the train has run complete to High Level Station, whence the through portion with MkIII sleepers has been taken out to Stirling an then forward to Mossend to wait for the 2030sx/1930SO ex-Inverness. The North bound services are unchanged (even vandals need sleep)."

So:
V2 timetable is correct to WTT, as the first Mk3/ETHEL plan
V3 timetable is for the more common 'Stirling' version and 1M15 left Stirling just ahead of the Inverness section. Stirling station being both safe (especially P9 side - then an army base) and with a shunter on duty.
The 37+ETHEL could now go onto Eastfield and be fuelled or swapped easily.

I still need to check through and see if 0D15 and 0M15 should swap over.

Bill

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The following users said thank you: sloppyjag, swiftaw
Motherwell_1984_v3 Questions/Issues 31/05/2020 at 18:18 #127297
bill_gensheet
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sloppyjag in post 127240 said:

Went QS to Stirling (where it divided from Inverness portion) went Stirling to Mossend, usually with a 47/4 (where it joined 1D15). I was a spotty 16 year old on his first Freedom of Scotland pass when I experienced travelling on it. Also saw the Euston portion being added to the Inverness before catching last train home from Queen Street so it wasn't a one off.
Interesting, so to clarify a bit you saw the 1822 Fort William - Euston attached to the 2350 Glasgow - Inverness as a way to get the portion to Stirling ?

Any recollection if it fitted in Queen St P7 or hung out like the HST ?
4 from Fort William plus 4 for Inverness is 8, and you'd expect a loco at the buffers.


regards
Bill

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Motherwell_1984_v3 Questions/Issues 31/05/2020 at 21:29 #127303
sloppyjag
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Bill, I'm now starting to question my own memory (sanity?) Euston portion definitely went via Stirling but am now doubting whether it was attached to Inverness or went on it's lonesome to Stirling. It would have been 37+ETHEL (at the buffers), 4 for Euston, 4 for Inverness plus Inverness loco, which would have been a stretch even for platform 7. Would have blocked half the station (which happened with the HST but only for 10-15 minutes twice per day.)

Your info regarding vandalism also makes sense now. Would have been around this time BTP started patrolling the Glasgow area in the 'Q' train using a 131 parcels unit.

Planotransitophobic!
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Motherwell_1984_v3 Questions/Issues 31/05/2020 at 23:40 #127306
bill_gensheet
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It could be both, as all the messing about was over one summer and never made WTT's. Quite a thread on it on Scot-Rail group a few months back for the ETHEL wiki - which sorted out enough information for the timetable update

Tacking it on the Inverness might have been the first short term fix, before the 'Dumbarton' option although who thought that Easterhouse was less ned* infested than Cowlairs....

* [Ned being a Glasgow term for yob/hooligan/chav etc nothing to do with spotters ]

The May 83 - May 84 WTT had a 2236 Cowlairs - Carlisle (rear of 1610 Mallaig - Glasgow) train as that was the last of the Mk1 sleepers together with the Stranraer, and changed during the TT to Mk3 and again could join Mossend, but retimings to other trains left the long wait on the curve was the problem.

Bill

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Motherwell_1984_v3 Questions/Issues 31/08/2020 at 23:43 #131156
bill_gensheet
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To advise that the core / sim bug referred to elsewhere:

https://www.simsig.co.uk/Forum/ThreadView/51203

makes this timetable tricky (for now) at Carstairs and Mossend.

When the sim fix is released this will cause 80-100 invalid trains in both of the 1984 timetables that will need fixing.

As there are several edits up in the air for chain compatibility to the new 1984 Edinburgh TT this could be broken for a while.


Bill

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Motherwell_1984_v3 Questions/Issues 21/12/2020 at 16:43 #135023
bill_gensheet
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The 'Fair Holiday' variation of Motherwell 1984 is now re-released for current sim and loader. this is a simple update of 'mostly the Thursday trains' running, with some trip and oil destinations as variables.

https://www.simsig.co.uk/File/Details/2512

The 'full manic trips' version is still being worked on and will follow when it is ready. That will not only have 4 'day of week' variations but will also chain in more than one direction.
That does mean the added wait as a fair bit has changed and I like to know things have been tested and work OK.


Bill.

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Motherwell_1984_v3 Questions/Issues 22/12/2020 at 21:46 #135061
BarryM
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bill_gensheet in post 135023 said:
The 'Fair Holiday' variation of Motherwell 1984 is now re-released for current sim and loader. this is a simple update of 'mostly the Thursday trains' running, with some trip and oil destinations as variables.

https://www.simsig.co.uk/File/Details/2512

The 'full manic trips' version is still being worked on and will follow when it is ready. That will not only have 4 'day of week' variations but will also chain in more than one direction.
That does mean the added wait as a fair bit has changed and I like to know things have been tested and work OK.



Bill.
Bill,

Thanks for this new timetable.

Just a minor point, downloading your attachment, does your heading show a correct Loader version?

Cheers
BarryM

Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
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Motherwell_1984_v3 Questions/Issues 22/12/2020 at 22:46 #135064
bill_gensheet
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Thanks Barry.

There is nothing known today to suggest any problems at Loader version 5.12, but the heading shows the loader (and sim data) version on which it was tested and verified.
Yes that was a few loader iterations ago hence the slight backdate.

Crucially, I know it will not work on earlier versions of loader or sim.

regards
Bill

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Motherwell_1984_v3 Questions/Issues 22/12/2020 at 23:40 #135068
Ray
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Train 6S79 (around 1.30 am) at Down Goods detached its Electric loco and attached a diesel loco all at Down Goods Mossend. All goes to plan and the join is complete, however the train should then continue its journey to Wifflet and beyond. This does not happen because signal M307 cannot be cancelled and it shows a proceed into the yard. Are these signals (M307, M309 and M311) meant to operate the way they do ? They seem to have a mind of their own and I cant see a way of controlling them even by opening the signals menu.
Last edited: 22/12/2020 at 23:42 by Ray
Reason: None given

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Motherwell_1984_v3 Questions/Issues 22/12/2020 at 23:50 #135070
MarkC
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Ray in post 135068 said:
Train 6S79 (around 1.30 am) at Down Goods detached its Electric loco and attached a diesel loco all at Down Goods Mossend. All goes to plan and the join is complete, however the train should then continue its journey to Wifflet and beyond. This does not happen because signal M307 cannot be cancelled and it shows a proceed into the yard. Are these signals (M307, M309 and M311) meant to operate the way they do ? They seem to have a mind of their own and I cant see a way of controlling them even by opening the signals menu.
Those signals are controlled by the Yard, they will clear the signals when they are ready to and will restore them back, if after some time they have not been restored you can call Mossend Yard Control to request that the signal is restored, see the manual here and here for more information

It's not my fault! I was left unsupervised.
Last edited: 22/12/2020 at 23:53 by MarkC
Reason: None given

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Motherwell_1984_v3 Questions/Issues 23/12/2020 at 10:35 #135110
Ray
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Quote:
Those signals are controlled by the Yard, they will clear the signals when they are ready to and will restore them back, if after some time they have not been restored you can call Mossend Yard Control to request that the signal is restored, see the manual here and here for more information.
Many thanks for your help. I had forgotten about the telephoning to the Yard option. I will try this out next time it happens. Having said that I notice that the message only appears in the pop-up menu when the yard manager wants it to. The message is not there as a permanent feature. For example, I have signal M309 showing white for no reason and telephoning the yard has no effect as the message is just not there as an option.

I might even try and lock the points away from the yard if possible as another option.

Last edited: 23/12/2020 at 12:55 by Ray
Reason: Further observations

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