Upcoming Games


Full list
Add a game

Upcoming Events

Trip workings/etc. in BR days?

You are here: Home > Forum > Miscellaneous > The real thing (anything else rail-oriented) > Trip workings/etc. in BR days?

Page 1 of 1

Trip workings/etc. in BR days? 08/06/2020 at 17:07 #127421
Muzer
Avatar
718 posts
I understand the modern rule for trip workings is if it's under 5 miles, it's a trip working and so doesn't necessarily have to appear in working timetables etc. (though I also understand that generally it's encouraged these days for things to appear in timetables wherever possible).

However, what was the rule back in BR days? I'm particularly interested in the Southampton/Eastleigh area here. I have a bunch of WTTs stretching from the 80s to the 90s, and it's only in Railtrack days that light engine moves for instance from Eastleigh T&RSMD to Southampton MCT (a distance that's certainly over the 5 mile limit) start appearing. Where, if anywhere, did the timings for light engines such as these appear before this time? Is there some document that explains them, or were they just sent "as required" slotting into the traffic by the signallers' best judgement? Or perhaps engines for Freightliner trains didn't come from Eastleigh Depot back in BR days — though I'm not sure where they would have come from instead? Obviously nowadays they seem to hang around in the MCT itself but I'm not sure that was the case in the 80s and 90s?

Log in to reply
Trip workings/etc. in BR days? 08/06/2020 at 17:48 #127426
jc92
Avatar
3476 posts
I don't think there was a rule on distance. Trips were just adhoc workings that are more open to change and updates than the WTT which is why trip notices were seperate and normally "until further notice" . The Cumbrian trip for instance worked all the way from Carlisle to Workington which is a fair old distance, similarly ballast trips could cover a fair amount of distance ferrying ballast to CE sidings ready for weekend possessions.

Adhoc light loco moves aren't trip workings and won't appear in such a notice. Some might be WTT, otherwise they'd be adhoc STP and VSTP paths with a headcode relating to the depot or location they were going to, which you might find in the front pages of your WTTs.

I recall Pascal had a freightliner loco diagrams book which showed what locos were booked to do which often showed them working, for instance to crewe electric despite this not being in the WTT.

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
Last edited: 08/06/2020 at 17:51 by jc92
Reason: None given

Log in to reply
Trip workings/etc. in BR days? 09/06/2020 at 01:50 #127440
whatlep
Avatar
370 posts
Interesting questions:
1) trip working - AFAIK there was no rule at all on distance by the late 1970s and early 1980s. Oxford's trips went to Bicester, Ascott-under-Wychwood and Abingdon as examples. Ayr's went to Auchinleck, well south of Kilmarnock. Two Carlisle trips were sent to shunt Dumfries and, if necessary, the Maxwelltown branch beyond. Glen Douglas weapons store on the West Highland line was served by a long trip working off Eastfield depot, travellking first in the opposite direction to pick up traffic at Mossend. Basically it was a question of what freight terminals still existed and what was the most expedient way of handling the limited traffic available.
2) Light engine moves are a perennial point of interest when trying to sort out workings, based on my appearance compiling SimSig timetables for Manchester Piccadilly and Stockport. Their appearance in WTTs and even station working documents right through from the 1960s onwards is haphazard at best. Some are clearly identified: some just "disappear" into the ether. There really isn't any consistency.

Log in to reply
Trip workings/etc. in BR days? 09/06/2020 at 09:26 #127444
kbarber
Avatar
1628 posts
On top of that, there were the 'Trip and shunt' workings to be found around significant centres, the likes of the Stratford 'Double extra' or Willesden's 'Target 3'. T3 had a couple of booked moves in any 24 hour period, to service the 'ICI' (a private siding between the PSB and New Line Station). Apart from that, T3 just wandered around Willesden as directed by the AYM (later AFA), sometimes even getting as far as Neasden if there was traffic needed taking over there.

Not to mention the occasion when we had a backlog of fuel for Cambridge Street Fuelling Point (which was running dry) clogging the yard, and the Cricklewood trip hadn't been over for at least a week. Ron Aldridge was on T3 that day and offered to take them over (even though Stonebridge men didn't normally work to the Midland). The following dialogue took place:
Me: "Do you know the road over there then?"
RA: "Yeah sure. It's all colour light these days, isn't it? Yeah, we'll be all right."
The tanks duly disappeared at a rate of knots (Ron wasn't known for hanging about). Nothing more was heard, and as Ron was rest day the next day I never did find out how he fared...

Log in to reply
Trip workings/etc. in BR days? 09/06/2020 at 14:26 #127448
58050
Avatar
2532 posts
Trip workings on BR were different according to the regions. Nothing to do with mileage at all. Furthermore they also tended to run with specific headcodes subject to where they originated. The majority of MGR traffic running in the East Midlands used the 'T' in the headcode. Very few MGR trains were booked as WTT services & those were generally to do with the fact that they were travelling over different regions of BR. For example the MGR services I've worked during my time on the footplate were WTT diagrammed because they started on the LMR & later on the ER, but there destination was on the SR. The MGR train running from Yorkshire to Fiddlers Ferry & from the LMR to Didcot power stations were diagrammed as WTT services as they were inter-regional, whereas the MGR trains servingFiddlers Ferry from the local collieries ran as 'trip' services & aren't published in the WTT, but in the Trip Notice. Trip services were local workings from designated depot, but could travel distances of 50+miles not just 6. Healey Mills depot trip workings were with the letter 'K'. Thornaby depot trip workings used the letter 'P' & so on. I could list pretty much every depots trip codes with all the trip notices I've got in my collection(over 100). AFAIK the Southern Region didn't have trip notices as such as I've never actually seen one. The depots on the Midland Mainline all used 'T' as did Willesden, Bletchley, Northampton & Rugby depots. BR ScR trip working headcodes were usually the 1st letter of the area which the trip working was designated to such 'A' Ayr(Falkland Jn.) area, 'G' for Grangemouth Area, Mossend Area used 'T'. All of the shunt locos were allocated trip numbers & the trip notice tells you the booked hours of work the pilots did. In later yearspost 1990 the number of trip workings significantly became less & less & once BR ended when the freight side of BR became privatised trip workings finished.The last trip notice I have is one for Toton & Worksop depots dated 1994. The freight companies being private only tended to list those trains on notices that were only distributed within the offices of the freight company that needed them, they weren't published like the former BR Trip Notices.Some areas were deviod of trip workings even in the late 1980s. When I worked at Whitemoor TOPS(1988) there were no trip workings in or out of the yard. All trains even ones running locally between Cambridge - Whitemoor - Peterborough & visa versa ran with a booked WTT headcode & that train appeared in the WTT. The only one that ran on an as required basis was a trip between Whitemoor Yard to March East Jn & back conveying wagons to the C&W works place there & returned with wagons that had been dealt with & were back in service. That trip was always worked by one of the Cl.08s that usually shunted the yard.
With regards to Trip Notices they were split in 5 sections:-
Section 1: Local Shunting Locomotives
Section 2: Trip Locomotives (which incl. locos working MGR trains).
Section 3: Departmental Trip & Shunting Locomotives
Section 4: Weekend Ballast Locomotives.
Section 5: General - Local Instructions & Operation of Freight Trains.
The reason that most MGR trains that ran on BR were trip workings was due to the fact that the coal orders changed weekly. The power stations would advise the railway the amount of ccoal they required for the following weeks electricity output, in turn the railway would speak to the various collieries on their patch to see how much coal they could produce & then a weekly MGR plan was conceived so it was impossible to publish these in WTTs as the plan could & very often did change every week. Locos diagrammed to work trips were then allocated to services booked to run on a daily basis by the power controllers & the coal controllers who allocated the MGR sets to the various services. Locos only being swapped out for fuel, repair or exams & pre determined maintenance checks which had been put on the loco by the Maintrol or Maintenance Control responsible for those locos. I could got into alot more detail, but you've have to e-mail me Muzer regarding something specific.

Log in to reply
Trip workings/etc. in BR days? 09/06/2020 at 14:50 #127452
58050
Avatar
2532 posts
kbarber in post 127444 said:
On top of that, there were the 'Trip and shunt' workings to be found around significant centres, the likes of the Stratford 'Double extra' or Willesden's 'Target 3'. T3 had a couple of booked moves in any 24 hour period, to service the 'ICI' (a private siding between the PSB and New Line Station). Apart from that, T3 just wandered around Willesden as directed by the AYM (later AFA), sometimes even getting as far as Neasden if there was traffic needed taking over there.

Not to mention the occasion when we had a backlog of fuel for Cambridge Street Fuelling Point (which was running dry) clogging the yard, and the Cricklewood trip hadn't been over for at least a week. Ron Aldridge was on T3 that day and offered to take them over (even though Stonebridge men didn't normally work to the Midland). The following dialogue took place:
Me: "Do you know the road over there then?"
RA: "Yeah sure. It's all colour light these days, isn't it? Yeah, we'll be all right."
The tanks duly disappeared at a rate of knots (Ron wasn't known for hanging about). Nothing more was heard, and as Ron was rest day the next day I never did find out how he fared...

I suspect Keith that T.80 was the trip booked to take fuel to Cambridge St. Iknow when I was on the footplate at St. Pancras in 1985 working T.80 we'd pick up the fuel tanks at Willesden Brent Sdgs & RR them at Acton Canal Wharf via Acton Wells Jn. Then run via Neasden Jn to RR" & go to Marylebone & do it all again with the empties. I remember once going in the SB at Maryebone. Quite a large box too.

Log in to reply
Trip workings/etc. in BR days? 09/06/2020 at 18:31 #127456
Ron_J
Avatar
316 posts
Muzer in post 127421 said:
I understand the modern rule for trip workings is if it's under 5 miles, it's a trip working and so doesn't necessarily have to appear in working timetables etc. (though I also understand that generally it's encouraged these days for things to appear in timetables wherever possible).
You might be thinking of the statement in the Network Code that a schedule is not required for movements for 5 miles or less entirely within the control of one signalbox, panel or workstation. Otherwise a schedule required as it is the basis of the track access charge to the TOC or FOC.

Log in to reply
Trip workings/etc. in BR days? 09/06/2020 at 21:55 #127458
58050
Avatar
2532 posts
Another important point to note regardingtrip workings in Trip Notices is that the locomotive shown to work that trip isn't the diagrammed motive power to work that trip, but the minimum traction type to be used for said trip. For example in my copy of the Midland Lines 1986-87 Trip Notice T.91 LEICESTER BALLAST shows Class 31 against it. But in fact Tinsley Depot loco diagram shows No77 TI Cl.45/1 to work 3E01 2359 MX Parcels Manc'r Piccadilly - Peterborough from Derby to Leicester where the engine is detached & goes to Leicester LIP for fuel. The loco comes off Leicester LIP at 0745 to work TRIP No.91 (Ballast) until it returns to Leicester LIP for fuel. The lococomes off Leicester LIP later in the day to go LD to Nottingham PCD to work2254 SX Parcels Nottingham PCD to London St. Pancras.
Some trip eorkings had booked work to be carried out every time they ran, but the Departmental trip locos received there work orders each day via the NTN or TOPS terminal which came from the local ACE(Area Civil Engineer). So during my time on the footplate at St. Pancras & the work orders for T.97, T.6 & T.99 came from Watford ACE.

Log in to reply
Trip workings/etc. in BR days? 10/06/2020 at 02:14 #127466
Muzer
Avatar
718 posts
Cheers all for the details, informative as ever! Sadly I've not seen any trip notice type thing for the Southern Region on eBay before (closest I've seen is books of locomotive diagrams, which would certainly help if only I could find one for the right division!) so I suppose I'll have to keep guessing for now — but the light loco workings listed in the 1997 timetable are invaluable to me at least because now I have a much clearer picture of how things used to work in the pre-Class 66 days!
Log in to reply
Trip workings/etc. in BR days? 10/06/2020 at 08:39 #127469
kbarber
Avatar
1628 posts
58050 in post 127452 said:
kbarber in post 127444 said:
On top of that, there were the 'Trip and shunt' workings to be found around significant centres, the likes of the Stratford 'Double extra' or Willesden's 'Target 3'. T3 had a couple of booked moves in any 24 hour period, to service the 'ICI' (a private siding between the PSB and New Line Station). Apart from that, T3 just wandered around Willesden as directed by the AYM (later AFA), sometimes even getting as far as Neasden if there was traffic needed taking over there.

Not to mention the occasion when we had a backlog of fuel for Cambridge Street Fuelling Point (which was running dry) clogging the yard, and the Cricklewood trip hadn't been over for at least a week. Ron Aldridge was on T3 that day and offered to take them over (even though Stonebridge men didn't normally work to the Midland). The following dialogue took place:
Me: "Do you know the road over there then?"
RA: "Yeah sure. It's all colour light these days, isn't it? Yeah, we'll be all right."
The tanks duly disappeared at a rate of knots (Ron wasn't known for hanging about). Nothing more was heard, and as Ron was rest day the next day I never did find out how he fared...

I suspect Keith that T.80 was the trip booked to take fuel to Cambridge St. Iknow when I was on the footplate at St. Pancras in 1985 working T.80 we'd pick up the fuel tanks at Willesden Brent Sdgs & RR them at Acton Canal Wharf via Acton Wells Jn. Then run via Neasden Jn to RR" & go to Marylebone & do it all again with the empties. I remember once going in the SB at Maryebone. Quite a large box too.
That sounds about right Pascal. I wonder if we met when you came over to the Brent? I was the youngster among the supervisors, left in spring '85; Ben(jamin) was on the shift before me, big Jamaican guy of few - but sometimes pungent - words, who'd been doing freight since Noah went into the Ark, and the other one was Dave Minney, came up from Northampton, an expert in finding and 'redeploying' whatever we needed to make the job more comfortable. By 1985 I think Paul Miller, the relief SV, would have died - a very big lad, he had a heart attack in his mid-30s; a real loss.

Marylebone... yes... 60 lever LMR (Derby) frame. Not really that complex, and with TCB by block bell to Neasden South not really that much interest in the working. Must have been fun before 1967 though... 80 levers at Marylebone Station and another 100 at Goods Junction, with AB between them and lots of complicated shunting.

Log in to reply