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King’s Cross summer 2020 MF (sim version 3.7)

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King’s Cross summer 2020 MF (sim version 3.7) 27/06/2020 at 15:12 #128221
DavidSplett
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I am working through updating this timetable for the new sim.

Currently it’s looking like the following alterations:

1) The two trains which exit via the country end of Hornsey Depot and reverse via Alexandra Palace platform 1 can run as in reality. Everything else which exits via country end of Hornsey Depot will have to continue using Bounds Green.

2) Platform numbers added for Highbury & Islington, Potters Bar, Biggleswade and Royston.

3) Down trains will have a Sandy timing point added. I’m not sure how this works for up trains yet.

4) Down trains going north from Hitchin will have DCF added as line where applicable.

5) Extra timing points for Langley South Junction, Bragbury Junction and Molewood Junction.

6) Letchworth AD Line timing point added for trains which enter service via London end of Letchworth sidings.

7) Trains can now reverse via Hertford North platform 1.

The following issues appear to be new or outstanding:

1) Still not possible to go into Hornsey Depot direct from Alexandra Palace platform 1.

2) This sim version is now giving a phone call every time a train enters from the ThamesLink core.

I will release this update once some degree of testing has taken place, which may be a little while. Since the original timetable there have actually been quite a few changes to the WTT at King's Cross, which seems to be a consequence of the remodelling works being postponed so Platform 0 didn't go out of use as originally planned. I will incorporate all these changes, but again it will take a little while to get all this done.

Last edited: 27/06/2020 at 19:30 by DavidSplett
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King’s Cross summer 2020 MF (sim version 3.7) 27/06/2020 at 16:17 #128234
y10g9
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DavidSplett in post 128221 said:

2) This sim version is now giving a phone call every time a train enters from the ThamesLink core.
You mean the Entry point from the CTRL section of St.Pancras International, which has no form of connection to St.Pancras International Low Level

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King’s Cross summer 2020 MF (sim version 3.7) 27/06/2020 at 16:27 #128240
DavidSplett
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y10g9 in post 128234 said:
DavidSplett in post 128221 said:

2) This sim version is now giving a phone call every time a train enters from the ThamesLink core.
You mean the Entry point from the CTRL section of St.Pancras International, which has no form of connection to St.Pancras International Low Level
It’s listed as King’s Cross Goods / St Pancras International. Not ideal, but no other way of running a post-2018 timetable unfortunately. Likewise southbound trains have to run on a position light, but it’s better than nothing.

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King’s Cross summer 2020 MF (sim version 3.7) 27/06/2020 at 16:48 #128254
andyallen4014
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I also noticed the shunter call up from St Pancras (I mentioned it elsewhere but i'm not sure the respondents understood me), I was also finding it was losing the headcode (to ****) if I didn't interpose the headcode onto the signal before entry.
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King’s Cross summer 2020 MF (sim version 3.7) 27/06/2020 at 17:21 #128268
Steamer
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andyallen4014 in post 128254 said:
I also noticed the shunter call up from St Pancras (I mentioned it elsewhere but i'm not sure the respondents understood me), I was also finding it was losing the headcode (to ****) if I didn't interpose the headcode onto the signal before entry.
As it's a minor siding, no headcode is interposed on entry- it's the signaller's job to do it.

If easy mode is selected on start-up, the TD is interposed as additional assistance.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
Last edited: 27/06/2020 at 17:22 by Steamer
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King’s Cross summer 2020 MF (sim version 3.7) 27/06/2020 at 17:30 #128269
y10g9
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DavidSplett in post 128240 said:
y10g9 in post 128234 said:
DavidSplett in post 128221 said:

2) This sim version is now giving a phone call every time a train enters from the ThamesLink core.
You mean the Entry point from the CTRL section of St.Pancras International, which has no form of connection to St.Pancras International Low Level
It’s listed as King’s Cross Goods / St Pancras International. Not ideal, but no other way of running a post-2018 timetable unfortunately. Likewise southbound trains have to run on a position light, but it’s better than nothing.
The Low Level Station and the Domestic Platforms are different locations and neither of them have International in their location names
The Domestic Platforms is London St Pancras (TIPLOC: STPX) https://www.opentraintimes.com/location/STPX/2020-06-30/17:00
The Low Level Platforms is St Pancras Low Level (TIPLOC: STPXBOX) https://www.opentraintimes.com/location/STPXBOX/2020-06-30/17:00
The International Platforms (incorporating the HS1 domestic platforms) is St Pancras International (TIPLOC: STPANCI) https://www.opentraintimes.com/location/STPANCI/2020-06-30/17:00

So therefore the entry St Pancras International as it is labeled in the New Era of kings Cross is correct for the international platforms. The King's Cross Goods is the goods yard that was in that same locations in the older era of the sim

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King’s Cross summer 2020 MF (sim version 3.7) 27/06/2020 at 18:50 #128276
GeoffM
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DavidSplett in post 128240 said:
y10g9 in post 128234 said:
DavidSplett in post 128221 said:

2) This sim version is now giving a phone call every time a train enters from the ThamesLink core.
You mean the Entry point from the CTRL section of St.Pancras International, which has no form of connection to St.Pancras International Low Level
It’s listed as King’s Cross Goods / St Pancras International. Not ideal, but no other way of running a post-2018 timetable unfortunately. Likewise southbound trains have to run on a position light, but it’s better than nothing.
I'm trying to remember, but I think at one point the connection was referenced as St. Pancras (in real life) because works trains for St. Pancras international used that yard. I could be wrong!

The layout for the Thameslink Core is quite different to this connection and the sim pre-dates that. I don't think it's very practical to have Thameslink trains coming out of a siding every few minutes!

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King’s Cross summer 2020 MF (sim version 3.7) 27/06/2020 at 18:58 #128278
jc92
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GeoffM in post 128276 said:

I'm trying to remember, but I think at one point the connection was referenced as St. Pancras (in real life) because works trains for St. Pancras international used that yard. I could be wrong!

The layout for the Thameslink Core is quite different to this connection and the sim pre-dates that. I don't think it's very practical to have Thameslink trains coming out of a siding every few minutes!
Correct. the same as with the maintenance siding on West Hampstead panel. used for works/ ballast trains.

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King’s Cross summer 2020 MF (sim version 3.7) 27/06/2020 at 19:28 #128281
DavidSplett
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GeoffM in post 128276 said:
DavidSplett in post 128240 said:
y10g9 in post 128234 said:
DavidSplett in post 128221 said:

2) This sim version is now giving a phone call every time a train enters from the ThamesLink core.
You mean the Entry point from the CTRL section of St.Pancras International, which has no form of connection to St.Pancras International Low Level
It’s listed as King’s Cross Goods / St Pancras International. Not ideal, but no other way of running a post-2018 timetable unfortunately. Likewise southbound trains have to run on a position light, but it’s better than nothing.
I'm trying to remember, but I think at one point the connection was referenced as St. Pancras (in real life) because works trains for St. Pancras international used that yard. I could be wrong!

The layout for the Thameslink Core is quite different to this connection and the sim pre-dates that. I don't think it's very practical to have Thameslink trains coming out of a siding every few minutes!
It isn't ideal, but it's what we have, and has worked satisfactorily thusfar. Is there any possibility this could simply be made into a running line for the modern era? Otherwise there is no realistic way of simulating Thameslink services, which essentially means none of the post-2018 timetables will work properly. Either that, or is there any way of simulating the double-line junction, even if it isn't quite accurately done?

Last edited: 27/06/2020 at 19:31 by DavidSplett
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King’s Cross summer 2020 MF (sim version 3.7) 27/06/2020 at 19:43 #128282
GeoffM
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DavidSplett in post 128281 said:
It isn't ideal, but it's what we have, and has worked satisfactorily thusfar. Is there any possibility this could simply be made into a running line for the modern era? Otherwise there is no realistic way of simulating Thameslink services, which essentially means none of the post-2018 timetables will work properly. Either that, or is there any way of simulating the double-line junction, even if it isn't quite accurately done?
The problem with that is that is not the only change. If I did that then I'd have to do everything else as well, and for a free sim, it's a bit much to expect. Paid sims get priority support.

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King’s Cross summer 2020 MF (sim version 3.7) 27/06/2020 at 20:08 #128288
DavidSplett
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GeoffM in post 128282 said:
DavidSplett in post 128281 said:
It isn't ideal, but it's what we have, and has worked satisfactorily thusfar. Is there any possibility this could simply be made into a running line for the modern era? Otherwise there is no realistic way of simulating Thameslink services, which essentially means none of the post-2018 timetables will work properly. Either that, or is there any way of simulating the double-line junction, even if it isn't quite accurately done?
The problem with that is that is not the only change. If I did that then I'd have to do everything else as well, and for a free sim, it's a bit much to expect. Paid sims get priority support.
That’s understandable, although speaking for myself I’d be more than happy for KX to be made payware. Given by the number of multiplayers always on the go it does appear to be a popular sim?

In the absence of anything else, is there any way the phone call and manual interpose can be taken off for the King’s Cross Goods entry? That would restore things to how it worked on the previous sim version, which to be fair has served us very well since 2018.

The various other changes all are gratefully received, although Letchworth could need looking at doesn’t seem to be working quite right.

Last edited: 28/06/2020 at 00:34 by DavidSplett
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King’s Cross summer 2020 MF (sim version 3.7) 28/06/2020 at 00:51 #128356
Airvan00
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DavidSplett in post 128288 said:
GeoffM in post 128282 said:
DavidSplett in post 128281 said:
It isn't ideal, but it's what we have, and has worked satisfactorily thusfar. Is there any possibility this could simply be made into a running line for the modern era? Otherwise there is no realistic way of simulating Thameslink services, which essentially means none of the post-2018 timetables will work properly. Either that, or is there any way of simulating the double-line junction, even if it isn't quite accurately done?
The problem with that is that is not the only change. If I did that then I'd have to do everything else as well, and for a free sim, it's a bit much to expect. Paid sims get priority support.
That’s understandable, although speaking for myself I’d be more than happy for KX to be made payware. Given by the number of multiplayers always on the go it does appear to be a popular sim?

In the absence of anything else, is there any way the phone call and manual interpose can be taken off for the King’s Cross Goods entry? That would restore things to how it worked on the previous sim version, which to be fair has served us very well since 2018.

The various other changes all are gratefully received, although Letchworth could need looking at doesn’t seem to be working quite right.
I support David’s request for changes to make his workarounds for the KX sim useable.
I know the purists will object to his requests but what he has achieved with his workarounds has made modern timetables possible. We all know this is a fudge but in the absence of an up to date sim it is the only thing possible.
I haven’t updated my copy of simsig because I am in the middle of a modern KX game and I don’t want the sim to become unworkable. KX is, in my option, the most popular sim that sim sig has, and would hate to see it destroyed. If it takes becoming a pay ware sim to get the upgrades necessary to run post 2018 timetables so be it. It will be first on my list for purchase.

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King’s Cross summer 2020 MF (sim version 3.7) 28/06/2020 at 01:05 #128358
jc92
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Airvan00 in post 128356 said:

KX is, in my option, the most popular sim that sim sig has, and would hate to see it destroyed.
Kings Cross is the most popular for hosting because its free and has a reasonable number of panels. I suspect that would no longer be the case were it suddenly £25-30 payware based on its size/complexity etc.

To say the sim has been "destroyed" is slightly dramatic given it only affects one timetable out of the myriad of ones available which all remain perfectly playable within the period intentionally represented by the simulation.

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King’s Cross summer 2020 MF (sim version 3.7) 28/06/2020 at 01:18 #128361
DavidSplett
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jc92 in post 128358 said:
Airvan00 in post 128356 said:

KX is, in my option, the most popular sim that sim sig has, and would hate to see it destroyed.
Kings Cross is the most popular for hosting because its free and has a reasonable number of panels. I suspect that would no longer be the case were it suddenly £25-30 payware based on its size/complexity etc.

To say the sim has been "destroyed" is slightly dramatic given it only affects one timetable out of the myriad of ones available which all remain perfectly playable within the period intentionally represented by the simulation.
I wouldn’t go as far as to say it’s destroyed, however it is certainly something where what we have now is less workable than what we had before. Given that King’s Cross Goods Yard has been out of use for quite a few years, and certainly has not been a salient feature of the railway for most or even all of what appears to be represented by the “modern” era, I’d certainly say it would be preferable to focus on the Thameslink core, which is a key feature of IIRC at least six recent timetables.

Yes what we had before was a fudge, but as a workaround it worked perfectly well.

The Thameslink-era timetables are certainly popular, and it’s easy to see why as they’ve very challenging, especially during disruption.

Last edited: 28/06/2020 at 01:19 by DavidSplett
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King’s Cross summer 2020 MF (sim version 3.7) 28/06/2020 at 08:29 #128366
Meld
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A lot of the earlier sims, would need way too much work to bring them upto date and time needed just isnt there.

Modern timetables on older sims just don't work without a lot of time being spent on them, take for example KGX an import of the 2015 data set brings 768 warnings and quite a few errors on passenger alone, I haven't even tried a freight import. If I was to push on with this as a project, it would be a side project so would only get looked at between other major jobs. KGX is an old sim and is unfortunately showing its age a little.

If the TT doesnt work after all the warnings are sorted, I wont be going asking Geoff to add this, change that etc. because I know its not gonna happen - Better a fresh clean slate that would cater for the modern TTs

That being said I wouldn't old my breathe on an new KGX until after its all transferred into York ROC and suitable data can be sourced for a new sim.

Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!!
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King’s Cross summer 2020 MF (sim version 3.7) 29/06/2020 at 00:30 #128494
DavidSplett
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Meld in post 128366 said:
A lot of the earlier sims, would need way too much work to bring them upto date and time needed just isnt there.

Modern timetables on older sims just don't work without a lot of time being spent on them, take for example KGX an import of the 2015 data set brings 768 warnings and quite a few errors on passenger alone, I haven't even tried a freight import. If I was to push on with this as a project, it would be a side project so would only get looked at between other major jobs. KGX is an old sim and is unfortunately showing its age a little.

If the TT doesnt work after all the warnings are sorted, I wont be going asking Geoff to add this, change that etc. because I know its not gonna happen - Better a fresh clean slate that would cater for the modern TTs

That being said I wouldn't old my breathe on an new KGX until after its all transferred into York ROC and suitable data can be sourced for a new sim.
I'm not sure we'll ever get a clean slate with King's Cross due to ETCS.

To be clear, we're not talking about a massive shopping list of issues. All of the post-2018 Thameslink era King's Cross timetables run well on the sim, the main "workarounds" which have had to be used are for stuff entering from the country end of Hornsey Depot (now partially resolved in v3.7, and not a problem for the elements unresolved), Stevenage platform 5 (again not a problem - indeed real life is currently doing exactly what the workaround does with the platform not being ready on time!), and of course the issue of stuff coming out of King's Cross Goods, aka Thameslink as per the workaround.

I've spent much of today modifying the May 2020 timetable to take full advantage of the new sim version. I say take advantage as apart from the Thameslink issue the timetable worked perfectly well from the off without any modification at all, the modifications I've spent today doing simply make it better, and tend to correct historic issues with the sim rather than fundamental layout issues (for example no "DCF" line option was provided in the timetable editor at the time the Hitchin flyover was added to the sim). Total number of errors - zero; we're not talking about compatibility issues on the scale of Piccadilly here!

However, *if* it's a minor change to remove the phone-call from stuff entering from King's Cross Goods then this, IMO, really would be a worthwhile change and I'm sure would be greatly appreciated by many, as King's Cross is already tough for a single player, so four needless phone calls and interposes per hour isn't ideal. Ultimately it's only giving us back what we had until the new version came out, which apart from this has actually made a massive enhancement to the modern timetables, so to say they're unworkable on an older sim isn't really how it is in this case.

I've some further enhancements to make, then due to the number of changes it will probably be necessary to test this timetable through from start to finish. Will be worth waiting for as thusfar it plays rather well, despite the nuisance phone-calls! :-)

Last edited: 29/06/2020 at 02:14 by DavidSplett
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King’s Cross summer 2020 MF (sim version 3.7) 08/07/2020 at 23:26 #129330
DavidSplett
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A quick update on King’s Cross timetables. I’ve completed sim v3.7 compatible versions of Winter 2019 MF and Summer 2020 MF. The latter is the neater of the two as the former has issues with LNER workings not matching up (due to rolling changes associated with the Azuma rollout), it still plays well but requires some creativity with platforming. I simply don’t have time to test these at present, so I’m going to submit them in untested form - this shouldn’t be an issue as these are overhauled versions of existing TTs rather than completely from scratch.

I’m also working on Winter 2017 MF and Summer 2019 Su, still a fair bit of work to do on these but they’ll be along in the not too distant future.

No prospect of updates for any others for the foreseeable future I’m afraid.

Last edited: 08/07/2020 at 23:27 by DavidSplett
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King’s Cross summer 2020 MF (sim version 3.7) 10/07/2020 at 16:17 #129432
leigh
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I actually found the addition of the phone call quite useful. Not long prior to the loader update, I was playing KX and had a succession of point or track circuit failures which meant I couldn't accept any trains from Kings Cross Goods, but no way to stop trains from appearing. Once they had appeared there was no way to send a train into the Goods yard because they would end up at a standoff buffer to buffer.

Once the failures cleared I had a queue of trains to clear (in both directions) and it was a lot harder to regulate the order of trains (ie in order to stop the next train to appear in the goods the route must be set into the goods, but that could only be done once the train coming out of the goods had cleared the points).

Now with the phone calls, it would just be as simple as not accepting the request for the next train.

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