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Cheshire Lines FAQ 29/06/2020 at 14:30 #128525
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Cheshire Lines Frequently Asked Questions

Do you think you've found a bug? Or do you have a problem running the simulation, check through this thread first.

Remember timetables are dealt with in the relevant timetable thread.

"CHECK Do you stop at Capenhurst?" - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Cheshire Lines FAQ 29/06/2020 at 17:04 #128540
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Call me a miserable old get if you like, but I have a minor niggle about the different boundary line (green) lengths between Mobberley/Deansgate and Deansgate/Northenden. The longer divider on the former seems to waste space :)

Thanks
Jamie

Jamie S (JAMS)
Last edited: 29/06/2020 at 17:05 by 9pN1SEAp
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Cheshire Lines FAQ 29/06/2020 at 17:05 #128541
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9pN1SEAp in post 128540 said:
Call me a miserable old get if you like, but I have a minor niggle about the different boundary line (green) lengths between Mobberley/Deansgate and Deansgate/Northenden. The longer divider on the former seems to waste space :)

Thanks
Jamie
Minor niggle, but adjusted. They are now the same for the next update.

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Cheshire Lines FAQ 29/06/2020 at 17:25 #128542
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9pN1SEAp in post 128540 said:
Call me a miserable old get if you like,
Jamie
You can't go taking titles that are already mine, you thieving miserable old get

Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!!
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Cheshire Lines FAQ 29/06/2020 at 18:32 #128546
pedroathome
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Meld in post 128542 said:
9pN1SEAp in post 128540 said:
Call me a miserable old get if you like,
Jamie
You can't go taking titles that are already mine, you thieving miserable old get :)
Don't worry, I don't think anyone can ever take that title away from you John

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Cheshire Lines FAQ 29/06/2020 at 18:39 #128547
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pedroathome in post 128546 said:
Don't worry, I don't think anyone can ever take that title away from you John
Are you sure?

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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Cheshire Lines FAQ 29/06/2020 at 18:46 #128548
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postal in post 128547 said:
pedroathome in post 128546 said:
Don't worry, I don't think anyone can ever take that title away from you John
Are you sure?
If only the forum could run a poll.

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Cheshire Lines FAQ 29/06/2020 at 19:43 #128549
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postal in post 128547 said:
pedroathome in post 128546 said:
Don't worry, I don't think anyone can ever take that title away from you John
Are you sure?
You may never see this again - Mr Gallon I apologise for claiming your title of 'miserable old get' as mine is 'miserable old git'

Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!!
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Cheshire Lines FAQ 29/06/2020 at 22:44 #128576
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Minor wording discrepancy; Woods Tenement Farm crossing near Plumley appears as Wood Tenement Farm in the phone call list.
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Cheshire Lines FAQ 29/06/2020 at 23:12 #128579
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Cheshire Lines FAQ 30/06/2020 at 03:53 #128586
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Three possible bugs (or maybe just not working as I anticipated) and various other bits & pieces from initial pre-1991 timetable testing.
EDIT - more items added 11.40 30/06

1) Trying to get a train to reverse at Plumley and adopt a new ID at PLumley in each direction. The Down ID change appears to work OK, but the Up does not. See 2H43 approaching Plumley on the Down in the 07.00 saved file. Changes OK to 5H43 and reverses at PY6, but doesn't take up the next ID on the Up at Plumley.
2) Mobberley LC appears to auto clear when the Down track circuit over the crossing still shows occupied. Follow 5H40 in the save file.
3) Reversing from GK10 to GK6LOS an 80 metre length train does not clear GK6. No idea about 2020, but should be possible pre-1991. See attached save file for 07.59.
4) Altrincham locations are all Altrincham (platform x), except for platform 1 which is Altrincham without the bracketted suffix. I note that I am getting "wrong platform used" for some trains in the scoring screen. Assume this is related?
5) It's not clear what track circuit/ signal is being used when Down trains appear at Timperley, nor when they appear as "1st approaching". In reality pre-1991, Deansgate Jn would "see" a train as soon as it left/ passed Brooklands/ signal MP724. See attached photograph. Can that be clarified please and corrected if required?
6) What speed limit is applied to the lines at Deansgate Jn in pre-1991 mode please? Reality was 60mph on the main line and 20mph round the corner to Skelton Jn.

As an aside, the crossings at Deansgate Jn and Navigation Road are every bit as hellish to work as I remember them!

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Last edited: 30/06/2020 at 12:25 by whatlep
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Cheshire Lines FAQ 30/06/2020 at 12:48 #128605
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whatlep in post 128586 said:
Two possible bugs (or maybe just not working as I anticipated) and a wording nit.
EDIT - more items added 11.40 30/06

1) Trying to get a train to reverse at Plumley and adopt a new ID at PLumley in each direction. The Down ID change appears to work OK, but the Up does not. See 2H43 approaching Plumley on the Down in the saved file. Changes OK to 5H43 and reverses at PY6, but doesn't take up the next ID on the Up at Plumley.
2) Mobberley LC appears to auto clear when the Down track circuit over the crossing still shows occupied. Follow 5H40 in the save file.
3) Altrincham locations are all Altrincham (platform x), except for platform 1 which is Altrincham without the bracketted suffix.
4) It's not clear what track circuit/ signal is being used when Down trains appear at Timperley, nor when they appear as "1st approaching". In reality pre-1991, Deansgate Jn would "see" a train as soon as it left/ passed Brooklands/ signal MP724. See attached photograph. Can that be clarified please and corrected if required?
5) What speed limit is applied to the lines at Deansgate Jn in pre-1991 mode please? Reality was 60mph on the main line and 20mph round the corner to Skelton Jn.

As an aside, the crossings at Deansgate Jn and Navigation Road are every bit as hellish to work as I remember them!
1 - Are you sayiing trains used to teerminate at Plumley and then reverse? That to me looks to be quite a significant distance
2 - The overlap track of Mobberley Signal MY1 is a combined track, allowing the crossing to raise while seemingly occupied. This is correct behaviour. From the manual:
Quote:

Mobberley level crossing contains a split track circuit on the Down Line. This means that the crossing will rise when the track is seemingly occupied. This is per reality.

3 - Please could you expand on this? I can't say I see what you're getting to here.
4 - Mantis 30941 - I'll be honest, the best image I could find of here was rather poor.
5 - Mantis 30942

James

Last edited: 30/06/2020 at 12:50 by pedroathome
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Cheshire Lines FAQ 30/06/2020 at 13:35 #128609
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pedroathome in post 128605 said:
whatlep in post 128586 said:
Two possible bugs (or maybe just not working as I anticipated) and a wording nit.
EDIT - more items added 11.40 30/06

1) Trying to get a train to reverse at Plumley and adopt a new ID at PLumley in each direction. The Down ID change appears to work OK, but the Up does not. See 2H43 approaching Plumley on the Down in the saved file. Changes OK to 5H43 and reverses at PY6, but doesn't take up the next ID on the Up at Plumley.
2) Mobberley LC appears to auto clear when the Down track circuit over the crossing still shows occupied. Follow 5H40 in the save file.
3) Altrincham locations are all Altrincham (platform x), except for platform 1 which is Altrincham without the bracketted suffix.
4) It's not clear what track circuit/ signal is being used when Down trains appear at Timperley, nor when they appear as "1st approaching". In reality pre-1991, Deansgate Jn would "see" a train as soon as it left/ passed Brooklands/ signal MP724. See attached photograph. Can that be clarified please and corrected if required?
5) What speed limit is applied to the lines at Deansgate Jn in pre-1991 mode please? Reality was 60mph on the main line and 20mph round the corner to Skelton Jn.

As an aside, the crossings at Deansgate Jn and Navigation Road are every bit as hellish to work as I remember them!
1 - Are you sayiing trains used to teerminate at Plumley and then reverse? That to me looks to be quite a significant distance
2 - The overlap track of Mobberley Signal MY1 is a combined track, allowing the crossing to raise while seemingly occupied. This is correct behaviour. From the manual:
Quote:

Mobberley level crossing contains a split track circuit on the Down Line. This means that the crossing will rise when the track is seemingly occupied. This is per reality.

3 - Please could you expand on this? I can't say I see what you're getting to here.
4 - Mantis 30941 - I'll be honest, the best image I could find of here was rather poor.
5 - Mantis 30942

James
1 - Yes indeed. The pattern of service on the Chester line has been very varied over the years, with DMUs reversing at Greenbank, Northwich, Plumley and Knutsford over the years, Greenbank and Knutsford being the most common. One place they never reversed was at Hale: ironic bearing in mind a running signal was provided for that purpose. In 1985 the main place of reversal was at Knutsford (start of the main commuter belt), but there was a single train that reversed at Plumley West. In later years, there was no choice for BR following the accident in the late 1980s at Knutsford that caused the crossover to be removed. Although Knutsford was a block post in the rush hours right up to 1991, trains that would otherwise have reversed at Knutsford had to reverse at Plumley West.
2 - my error. Apologies
3 - Look in the Train List for the 07.59 saved file. You should see 2H36 at a location of Altrincham (platform 2), but 2H02 is at Altrincham without any platform information.
4 & 5 - noted. Thank you.

There are also the previously noted issues of reversals needing to be permitted at AM59 and GK10, but I think those are already on Mantis.

If I can be of any help on this simulation, please feel free to ask via PM. I used the line for the best part of 20 years and operated more than one of the signalboxes back in the day.

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Cheshire Lines FAQ 30/06/2020 at 13:50 #128610
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whatlep in post 128586 said:

3) Reversing from GK10 to GK6LOS an 80 metre length train does not clear GK6. No idea about 2020, but should be possible pre-1991. See attached save file for 07.59.
In the released version of the sim, this is not a possible move currently as there is currently not a route possible from GK10 to GK6LOS.
As to the train not standing clear of GK6, in Simsig, trains have a default stopping distance between them and a signal (normally around 20m). In your save, we've confirmed that that is what has happened, if you tell the train to shunt forward, he moves another 18m where he does stand clear of GK6 signal and can be signalled from there. It is however being looked at for an update

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Cheshire Lines FAQ 30/06/2020 at 14:41 #128614
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y10g9 in post 128610 said:
whatlep in post 128586 said:

3) Reversing from GK10 to GK6LOS an 80 metre length train does not clear GK6. No idea about 2020, but should be possible pre-1991. See attached save file for 07.59.
In the released version of the sim, this is not a possible move currently as there is currently not a route possible from GK10 to GK6LOS.
As to the train not standing clear of GK6, in Simsig, trains have a default stopping distance between them and a signal (normally around 20m). In your save, we've confirmed that that is what has happened, if you tell the train to shunt forward, he moves another 18m where he does stand clear of GK6 signal and can be signalled from there. It is however being looked at for an update
An NX stopping point would be the obvious interim fix for this

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Cheshire Lines FAQ 30/06/2020 at 14:45 #128615
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y10g9 in post 128610 said:
whatlep in post 128586 said:

3) Reversing from GK10 to GK6LOS an 80 metre length train does not clear GK6. No idea about 2020, but should be possible pre-1991. See attached save file for 07.59.
In the released version of the sim, this is not a possible move currently as there is currently not a route possible from GK10 to GK6LOS.
As to the train not standing clear of GK6, in Simsig, trains have a default stopping distance between them and a signal (normally around 20m). In your save, we've confirmed that that is what has happened, if you tell the train to shunt forward, he moves another 18m where he does stand clear of GK6 signal and can be signalled from there. It is however being looked at for an update
Thanks for that explanation. As a user, can I amend the default stopping distance either dynamically or within a timetable rule (or similar)?

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Cheshire Lines FAQ 30/06/2020 at 15:12 #128616
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whatlep in post 128615 said:
As a user, can I amend the default stopping distance either dynamically or within a timetable rule (or similar)?
Afraid not as things currently stand. You will have to add NX or whatever else is appropriate to each TT calling that move. Bit of a pain in a completed TT with a number of trains but easy enough when you are writing the TT if you know it is required. If you feel confident enough to unzip the .wtt file and edit the timetable.xml file you could possibly do it with a blanket find and replace depending on the exact location/circumstances.

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Last edited: 30/06/2020 at 15:13 by postal
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Cheshire Lines FAQ 02/07/2020 at 22:55 #128843
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Couple of queries:
1) Noticed this evening that signal NN10 sticks at single yellow even when AM62 ahead is at single yellow, irrespective of whether the route is set into the bays at Altrincham or toward Hale. Something that changed since I knew the area and hence working as designed, or a glitch?
2) In the attached file, a working is querying its routing into Northwich's Down Recption Sdg. I can't understand why. The timetable compiles with zero warnings or errors and the timetable entry validates correctly. Help!
3) Similar to (2), but related to a following working from GK64/65 via GK31B/36 to Lostock works. Also gets its route queried.

Enjoying exploring the sim very much, by the way!

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Last edited: 03/07/2020 at 00:25 by whatlep
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Cheshire Lines FAQ 03/07/2020 at 06:45 #128849
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whatlep in post 128843 said:
Couple of queries:
1) Noticed this evening that signal NN10 sticks at single yellow even when AM62 ahead is at single yellow, irrespective of whether the route is set into the bays at Altrincham or toward Hale. Something that changed since I knew the area and hence working as designed, or a glitch?
2) In the attached file, a working is querying its routing into Northwich's Down Recption Sdg. I can't understand why. The timetable compiles with zero warnings or errors and the timetable entry validates correctly. Help!
3) Similar to (2), but related to a following working from GK64/65 via GK31B/36 to Lostock works. Also gets its route queried.

Enjoying exploring the sim very much, by the way!
1 - My understanding is that, Lever 63 in Altrincham allowed NN10 to step upto Green. 63 has two pull requirements as far as I can see, which I suspect is for the route towards Hale.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ingythewingy/25799590488/in/photolist-FiPDpE-23s6m31-Jqn3HH-22fVCai-23zLMiG-223VAyV-29CWyis-JpLxfx-23CsDJk-23A5EP2-FmDeaE-23oZ5oW-23CJH4e-23Cn4hV-23n4dqk-22gVDRY-23zzEGh-226JabK-Jwhtr4-DMPSdH-MzvfBs-22dGmTK-22y6urQ-23qqjtU-C7HtW9-8p9BYr-7Qe5Ry-aZMfop-7JHvMz-7JMsoA-C7BBbw-7JMsVj-8p9C9T-bxzp5v-8p9vye-8pcFuE-8p9vRK-22y6tjj-22xMmQ3-JweHJZ-22eAjm6-DPkVMF-D33XpS-22ez398-DW9jNx-2akbHFN-CWY8L8-FkrsxS-226Ychv-agt9wb

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ingythewingy/38758139525/in/dateposted/

2 & 3 - Let me have a decent days sleep and I'll take a look at these when I wake up.

James

Last edited: 03/07/2020 at 06:46 by pedroathome
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Cheshire Lines FAQ 03/07/2020 at 16:16 #128886
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Maybe I missed it in the manual, but what is the penalty time on the level crossings?
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Cheshire Lines FAQ 03/07/2020 at 16:41 #128887
pedroathome
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swiftaw in post 128886 said:
Maybe I missed it in the manual, but what is the penalty time on the level crossings?
Crossings are currently set at 5 mins between trains, upto a maximum time of 30 mins total. The only place this total time can come in useful to play to ones advantage is around the Deansgate Junction area. I think everywhere else, from memory, the section times are longer than this

====EDIT====

If its in the manual, I don't remember adding it

James

Last edited: 03/07/2020 at 16:42 by pedroathome
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Cheshire Lines FAQ 07/07/2020 at 16:56 #129213
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whatlep in post 128843 said:
Couple of queries:
2) In the attached file, a working is querying its routing into Northwich's Down Recption Sdg. I can't understand why. The timetable compiles with zero warnings or errors and the timetable entry validates correctly. Help!
3) Similar to (2), but related to a following working from GK64/65 via GK31B/36 to Lostock works. Also gets its route queried.

Enjoying exploring the sim very much, by the way!
2 & 3 now fixed, and will be in the update. (Ref Mantis 31023)

James

Last edited: 07/07/2020 at 17:18 by pedroathome
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Cheshire Lines FAQ 07/07/2020 at 18:03 #129218
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During busy running the best technique seems to be to keep the crossing closest to where the trams are passing down and raise the other one. So if a tram is exiting to Trimley and one is entering keep the Deansgate Lane Barriers down and raise the Navigation road barriers and vice versa. This way the barriers are generally only down for about 3/4 minutes each time.
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Cheshire Lines FAQ 07/07/2020 at 19:13 #129225
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I was a tram driver in the period the 2015 TT is set and under normal running, that is exactly what happened, to the extent trams would usually be held to ensure two could pass within a smaller time-scale.

At that time, P2 was very rarely used at Altrincham (usually just in disruption and for holding football/cricket/concert specials ready for events ending at Old Trafford), so it would be one in, one out at Altrincham. This meant it was common to be held at Navigation Road until the tram ahead left Altrincham, as it minimised the down-time for the barriers and meant you were held on a platform. It could be quite frustrating on a job with lots of Altrincham trips as you could expect to be held at almost every DJ signal, often for quite a while! TT wise it was rarely an issue as there was a reasonable amount of recovery time, but it did mean almost every visit to Altrincham was brief; often as soon as you'd changed ends and set up you'd be due (or past time) to leave. Because of the one in, one out nature of operation TRTS wasn't used ordinarily - the signaller would just set the route out as soon as you were in the platform unless instructed otherwise by the Metrolink control room.

The TT changed a couple of years ago, and both platforms are used during the day to allow for a bit more recovery time (I think Alt-Picc use P1, Alt-Bury P2 through the day), and give drivers the chance of using a toilet! I'd imagine the crossing operation works on broadly the same principle though.

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Cheshire Lines FAQ 07/07/2020 at 20:47 #129233
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General Question Splodge as you'll be able to answer it. Are tram drivers using the Altrincham line expected to meet the same standards of knowledge as heavy rail drivers, ie do they work from the RSSB rulebook etc or do they still do their own thing so to speak.
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