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Edinburgh v5 issues.

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Edinburgh v5 issues. 02/08/2020 at 19:07 #130306
Peter Bennet
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Steamer in post 130297 said:
Woodhead Signalman in post 130203 said:
Hi, I just had a phone call from a 'shunter' which asked me if i wanted to let 6S01 run 15 minutes earlier than booked from the Berwick-on-Tweed direction. Shouldn't I have the got the call from the signaller at Berwick-on-Tweed signal box, not a 'shunter'? Looks like possibly a glitch in the code somewhere. Thanks for attention in this matter. Alan.
Ta, Mantis #31261 raised.
I presume there is a default and shunter is it.

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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Edinburgh v5 issues. 03/08/2020 at 14:13 #130326
swiftaw
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This isn't an issue, more a question. Can anyone explain the purpose of 5Z01?
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Edinburgh v5 issues. 03/08/2020 at 14:18 #130327
Hap
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swiftaw in post 130326 said:
This isn't an issue, more a question. Can anyone explain the purpose of 5Z01?
Suburban line route refreshers. SR only have/had limited ECS runs around the sub, this allowed us to keep the route as a diversionary for pax services if Haymarket went down. We'd route out to the East and back onto the Midclader, E&G, Fife or shed, though services were prioritised due to the long block sections others would be caped (cancelled) or terminated short.

To date, the last time a full route refresher happened on the Sub was when the Borders line was being tested, both Edinburgh/Tweedbank drivers and guards were refreshed on it. Now only Edinburgh/Tweedbank Drivers sign it completely, all other depots would require a route conductor.

HAP
Last edited: 03/08/2020 at 14:25 by Hap
Reason: None given

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Edinburgh v5 issues. 03/08/2020 at 19:18 #130336
ajax103
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Hap in post 130327 said:
swiftaw in post 130326 said:
This isn't an issue, more a question. Can anyone explain the purpose of 5Z01?
Suburban line route refreshers. SR only have/had limited ECS runs around the sub, this allowed us to keep the route as a diversionary for pax services if Haymarket went down. We'd route out to the East and back onto the Midclader, E&G, Fife or shed, though services were prioritised due to the long block sections others would be caped (cancelled) or terminated short.

To date, the last time a full route refresher happened on the Sub was when the Borders line was being tested, both Edinburgh/Tweedbank drivers and guards were refreshed on it. Now only Edinburgh/Tweedbank Drivers sign it completely, all other depots would require a route conductor.
How come Edinburgh/Tweedbank guards no longer sign the route?

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Edinburgh v5 issues. 03/08/2020 at 21:42 #130343
Hap
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Simple case of they don't travel over it anymore. We can't sign anything we don't go over. (After a certain amount of time has lapsed since it was last traversed in passenger service). Guards can go over it on ECS, but they would have to follow drivers instructions if the train were to fall into an emergency situation etc.
HAP
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Edinburgh v5 issues. 07/08/2020 at 00:25 #130448
swiftaw
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Not sure if this has been mentioned before but I had an issue with Knowes LC. I got a call that there was sheep waiting to cross so I gave permission and turned the emergency signals to red. About 15 minutes later a train stopped at the signal as I had not received a call saying the crossing was clear. I waited another 5 minutes and thought perhaps there was a bug where you dont get the clear call, so I sent the train through and didn't get a call yelling at me for sending a train through. So I thought I'd confirmed the bug.

However, about 10 minutes later I got a call telling me the crossing was now clear, so it seems the bug is not getting a yelling call when sending a train through the crossing when you authorize people to cross.

Last edited: 07/08/2020 at 00:26 by swiftaw
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Edinburgh v5 issues. 07/08/2020 at 01:21 #130450
GeoffM
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swiftaw in post 130448 said:
About 15 minutes later a train stopped at the signal as I had not received a call saying the crossing was clear. I waited another 5 minutes and thought perhaps there was a bug where you dont get the clear call
That would be too realistic! Signallers hate it when crossing users don't call back to confirm they're clear. I believe the next train has to be stopped and cautioned if the signaller suspects this is the case, causing delay.

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Edinburgh v5 issues. 07/08/2020 at 01:30 #130451
TUT
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GeoffM in post 130450 said:
swiftaw in post 130448 said:
About 15 minutes later a train stopped at the signal as I had not received a call saying the crossing was clear. I waited another 5 minutes and thought perhaps there was a bug where you dont get the clear call
That would be too realistic! Signallers hate it when crossing users don't call back to confirm they're clear. I believe the next train has to be stopped and cautioned if the signaller suspects this is the case, causing delay.
Indeed, "Approach the crossing at caution. Do not pass over it until you are sure that it is safe to do so." And get the driver to report back whether or not the crossing is clear. Cannot resume normal running until told it's safe.

Bit off-topic, but a feature I'd very much like. In real life one of the questions you would ask is how long the user needs to cross. Now their estimate might be off, but in simsig you get no indication of how long the request will last (unlike with train delays for example), which makes it difficult to decide whether to grant permission to cross. We do not delay trains for user-worked crossing requests, that's lesson 2

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Edinburgh v5 issues. 07/08/2020 at 09:53 #130452
Soton_Speed
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TUT in post 130451 said:
Bit off-topic, but a feature I'd very much like. In real life one of the questions you would ask is how long the user needs to cross. Now their estimate might be off, but in simsig you get no indication of how long the request will last (unlike with train delays for example), which makes it difficult to decide whether to grant permission to cross. We do not delay trains for user-worked crossing requests, that's lesson 2 :P
Quote:
At 13:23:23 hrs, the signaller answered a call from the car driver at Dock Lane UWC-T, who requested “Three rhino to go across – 72 seconds”.
- (R082017_170503_Dock_Lane, para. 25)

When real life imitates SimSig, almost...

In Zone 6, no one can hear you scream...
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Edinburgh v5 issues. 07/08/2020 at 10:51 #130453
jc92
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Soton_Speed in post 130452 said:
TUT in post 130451 said:
Bit off-topic, but a feature I'd very much like. In real life one of the questions you would ask is how long the user needs to cross. Now their estimate might be off, but in simsig you get no indication of how long the request will last (unlike with train delays for example), which makes it difficult to decide whether to grant permission to cross. We do not delay trains for user-worked crossing requests, that's lesson 2 :P
Quote:
At 13:23:23 hrs, the signaller answered a call from the car driver at Dock Lane UWC-T, who requested “Three rhino to go across – 72 seconds”.
- (R082017_170503_Dock_Lane, para. 25)

When real life imitates SimSig, almost...
"Not to worry, the Rhino are all safe."

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Edinburgh v5 issues. 07/08/2020 at 20:37 #130460
lazzer
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Not an issue (so sorry for going off-topic a bit), but it's good to see Edinburgh in the loader, AND with a loader version of the 1993 timetable. I always loved playing this one on the EXE version, but would inevitably get to a point where I just couldn't keep up with everything going on. ARS will hopefully solve some of that, so Ive just started a new game to see how I get on.

Thanks for bringing it up to date

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Edinburgh v5 issues. 07/08/2020 at 21:14 #130462
bugsy
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lazzer in post 130460 said:
Not an issue (so sorry for going off-topic a bit), but it's good to see Edinburgh in the loader, AND with a loader version of the 1993 timetable. I always loved playing this one on the EXE version, but would inevitably get to a point where I just couldn't keep up with everything going on. ARS will hopefully solve some of that, so Ive just started a new game to see how I get on.

Thanks for bringing it up to date :)
Glad that you mentioned the 1993 Loader tt. Didn't know about it so I've just downloaded it

Your life can have a thousand different meanings or maybe just one....I'd recommend more than one in case you got it wrong - (Rezende)
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Edinburgh v5 issues. 07/08/2020 at 22:13 #130468
lazzer
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I think I jinxed the sim slightly by making a post that said "not an issue but .."

It's 01.06 in the 1993 Loader TT, and I've only just had a message saying "Today is Wednesday". That's the longest I've ever had to wait for a sim to tell me which day it is! I've got a save I took immediately afterwards, should it be required.

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Edinburgh v5 issues. 08/08/2020 at 00:10 #130471
postal
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lazzer in post 130468 said:
I think I jinxed the sim slightly by making a post that said "not an issue but .."

It's 01.06 in the 1993 Loader TT, and I've only just had a message saying "Today is Wednesday". That's the longest I've ever had to wait for a sim to tell me which day it is! I've got a save I took immediately afterwards, should it be required.
The choice of day is only published once the decision has been called. For a lot of TTs one of the seed trains will be dated so the decision is called on loading. In this case presumably the first time that the sim needed to make a decision about the day is for a train entering at or about 01:06.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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Edinburgh v5 issues. 08/08/2020 at 09:35 #130472
lazzer
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postal in post 130471 said:
lazzer in post 130468 said:
I think I jinxed the sim slightly by making a post that said "not an issue but .."

It's 01.06 in the 1993 Loader TT, and I've only just had a message saying "Today is Wednesday". That's the longest I've ever had to wait for a sim to tell me which day it is! I've got a save I took immediately afterwards, should it be required.
The choice of day is only published once the decision has been called. For a lot of TTs one of the seed trains will be dated so the decision is called on loading. In this case presumably the first time that the sim needed to make a decision about the day is for a train entering at or about 01:06.
Yeah, I was thinking about that - the previous train to enter was about seven minutes before. Its TT didn't suggest it was the train that determines which day is running.

Would the train that determines the day have anything specific in its TT (apart from its description saying it's the train that determines the day)?

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Edinburgh v5 issues. 08/08/2020 at 09:55 #130473
postal
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lazzer in post 130472 said:
Would the train that determines the day have anything specific in its TT (apart from its description saying it's the train that determines the day)?
In the top right of the front tab of the TT there are two boxes for Decision and Choice. They will carry data if the train is governed by a decision. Not sure how far in advance a decision is called but you may find a train shortly after 01:06 which has the day-of-the-week decision. A lot of TT writers use DoTW for the decision name (or you can see a list of the decisions embedded in the TT on the Decisions tab of the main TT).

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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Edinburgh v5 issues. 08/08/2020 at 11:11 #130479
lazzer
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postal in post 130473 said:
lazzer in post 130472 said:
Would the train that determines the day have anything specific in its TT (apart from its description saying it's the train that determines the day)?
In the top right of the front tab of the TT there are two boxes for Decision and Choice. They will carry data if the train is governed by a decision. Not sure how far in advance a decision is called but you may find a train shortly after 01:06 which has the day-of-the-week decision. A lot of TT writers use DoTW for the decision name (or you can see a list of the decisions embedded in the TT on the Decisions tab of the main TT).
Thanks - I did a brief bit of TT searching, and I dug out three trains that have DotW decisions (I assume there are more):

6Z6700 (enters 01:55) - [any] TUE | THU (which I assume means a random choice out of three days?)
7S4300 (enters 01:07) - FRI
6S4000 (enters 03:54) - THU

I checked the TTs of all trains currently in the sim, and of all the trains that are greyed out in the F4 window (already entered or did not enter) and only 7S4300 has a DotW decision, which is for Friday. As expected, it didn't enter. So as it's Wednesday I am confused as to how the TT got to that decision, and why it popped up at 01:06. If anyone can shed any more light on this it would be appreciated.

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Edinburgh v5 issues. 08/08/2020 at 11:35 #130483
MarkC
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The DOTW decision would of been called about a min or so before 7S34 was due to enter as that is the first train that requires a decision and as the choice is random the train that caused the decision to be called may not end up entering.

In the TT editor you have a Tab Called Decisions and this lists all the decisions that are in the timetable and under each decision is a number of choices, so when a train that is due to enter (about a min or 2 before it does) has a decision the loader goes to this list and look for the decision and selects one of the choices it then goes back to the train and looks to see if the choice selected matches any on the train if the choice does the train will enter, if the choice does not match it gets marked as having entered and the train will not enter.

for further trains that require the same decision the loader will look at the decision list see that a choice has been selected and then see if that choice matches, and then take the appropiate measure for entering or not.

Wiki entry here for more info on decisions

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Edinburgh v5 issues. 08/08/2020 at 11:44 #130484
postal
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lazzer in post 130479 said:
6Z6700 (enters 01:55) - [any] TUE | THU (which I assume means a random choice out of three days?)
Any of TUE or THU so choice of two days. If the decisions were set as [not] TUE | THU (and assuming you had 5 weekday choices defined) then you would get a choice of three random days (MON, WED or FRI).

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Edinburgh v5 issues. 08/08/2020 at 11:48 #130485
lazzer
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MarkC in post 130483 said:
The DOTW decision would of been called about a min or so before 7S34 was due to enter as that is the first train that requires a decision and as the choice is random the train that caused the decision to be called may not end up entering.

In the TT editor you have a Tab Called Decisions and this lists all the decisions that are in the timetable and under each decision is a number of choices, so when a train that is due to enter (about a min or 2 before it does) has a decision the loader goes to this list and look for the decision and selects one of the choices it then goes back to the train and looks to see if the choice selected matches any on the train if the choice does the train will enter, if the choice does not match it gets marked as having entered and the train will not enter.

for further trains that require the same decision the loader will look at the decision list see that a choice has been selected and then see if that choice matches, and then take the appropiate measure for entering or not.

Wiki entry here for more info on decisions
Cheers - I see how it works now - much more complex than before the update to Loader v4.5, but I think it's a better system. So are you saying that the core code now makes a random decision on which day of the week it is, and then each train with a DotW entry interrogates this decision to see whether it can enter or not?

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Edinburgh v5 issues. 08/08/2020 at 12:47 #130486
clive
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lazzer in post 130485 said:
MarkC in post 130483 said:

In the TT editor you have a Tab Called Decisions and this lists all the decisions that are in the timetable and under each decision is a number of choices, so when a train that is due to enter (about a min or 2 before it does)
The exact time depends on the sim and location; the default is 60 seconds. There are a number of features that sim authors can use to simulate the fact that a train is committed to enter some time before it actually appears.

lazzer in post 130485 said:

Cheers - I see how it works now - much more complex than before the update to Loader v4.5, but I think it's a better system. So are you saying that the core code now makes a random decision on which day of the week it is, and then each train with a DotW entry interrogates this decision to see whether it can enter or not?
No. (And this hasn't changed since I first wrote it, other than in some irrelevant ways.)

There are various places in the timetable editor where you can enter a decision and choice, notably whether a train enters at all and whether an activity (e.g. a divide) happens.

At the point that the core code needs to know whether something is going to happen (so 60 seconds before entry, by default, or when the train has arrived at the dividing location and carried out any previous activities there), it looks to see if there's a decision/choice pair. If there is, it asks a specific module of the code for a yes/no answer. That module looks to see if the choice had already been made. If it hasn't, the module makes a random choice based on the number of choices available and their weightings and records the answer. In either case, it can now return a yes/no answer.

So, the core code doesn't make a decision on which day of the week it is. Rather, the train entry module sees that 7S34 has (for example; I haven't looked at the timetable) a decision of "DOTW" and a choice of "WED". It asks the decisions module: "DOTW=WED, yes or no?". The decisions module looks up decision "DOTW" and sees it's got "undecided" against it. So it looks at the details and finds that there are choices "MON", "TUE", "WED", "THU", and "FRI" with weightings of 1, 1, 1, 2, and 1 respectively. Those add up to 6, so it throws a six-sided dice and stores "MON" for a 1, "TUE" for a 2, "WED" for a 3, "THU" for a 4 or 5, and "FRI" for a 6, in the details for decision "DOTW". Now it can see whether "WED" was chosen or not and answer yes or no. The next time a decision involving "DOTW" happens, it sees that the answer is already recorded and so just answers yes or no again (if this time it was "DOTW=THU" then, obviously, it can't answer yes to both questions).

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Edinburgh v5 issues. 08/08/2020 at 13:56 #130487
bill_gensheet
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lazzer in post 130485 said:
[quote=MarkC;post=130483]Cheers - I see how it works now - much more complex than before the update to Loader v4.5, but I think it's a better system. So are you saying that the core code now makes a random decision on which day of the week it is, and then each train with a DotW entry interrogates this decision to see whether it can enter or not?
It is the timetable that has changed, the work in going from various '6A00 does not run if 6B02 runs' rules that simulated days of the week to the decisions is quite complex.
With the 1993 timetable set they used to be 'mostly a Thursday' and a few variables / entertainments thrown in where they did not clash with real Thursday only trains. It now has more accurate TUE, WED, THU, FRI trains.

Some of the variables are overnight so you will get different ones near the end, as the timetable runs to 03:00 next day.

As noted above, there is no midnight seed on this, so the decision is made on a first train basis and that is 7S43. It does mean that if you save at 01:00 having got things going, set up auto signals as you like, sticky notes and so on that you can still play any of the days from that save.

Bill

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Edinburgh v5 issues. 15/08/2020 at 11:12 #130675
ajax103
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I'm currently playing the 1993 timetable and I've observed something that I don't understand when setting a specific route at Edinburgh itself.

This being when you have a train in Platform 17 that is behind E483 and you manually set a onward route either from E483 to E485 to E497 or if you set the route from E485 to E497 first then set the route from E483 to E485, E483 will only show a shunt aspect with E485 showing a full aspect.

However, let ARS set the above route and E483 doesn't show a shunt aspect but rather a full aspect so why is this?

So far from a 00:00 start, I'm now at 17:04 and it happens all the time.

Also when you have services leave Thornton Yard and the loco has to run around it's train if you route the train onto the Down Cowenbeath to ET777 either manually or ARS when the route needs to be set from ET953 (Reverse) to ET777, the signal doesn't clear at all so you have to talk the loco past the signal at danger yet if if you route said train onto the loop and run the loco around it's train then when you set the route from ET953 (Reverse) to ET779 you get a shunt signal aspect.

Why is this?

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Edinburgh v5 issues. 15/08/2020 at 11:26 #130677
MarkC
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ajax103 in post 130675 said:
I'm currently playing the 1993 timetable and I've observed something that I don't understand when setting a specific route at Edinburgh itself.

This being when you have a train in Platform 17 that is behind E483 and you manually set a onward route either from E483 to E485 to E497 or if you set the route from E485 to E497 first then set the route from E483 to E485, E483 will only show a shunt aspect with E485 showing a full aspect.

However, let ARS set the above route and E483 doesn't show a shunt aspect but rather a full aspect so why is this?

So far from a 00:00 start, I'm now at 17:04 and it happens all the time.

Also when you have services leave Thornton Yard and the loco has to run around it's train if you route the train onto the Down Cowenbeath to ET777 either manually or ARS when the route needs to be set from ET953 (Reverse) to ET777, the signal doesn't clear at all so you have to talk the loco past the signal at danger yet if if you route said train onto the loop and run the loco around it's train then when you set the route from ET953 (Reverse) to ET779 you get a shunt signal aspect.

Why is this?
Platform 17 is an odd on and I am not sure why it does it, but if you click on E483 to signal E495 or E497 or E499 (missing out Signal E485) you then get Proceed aspectcs on the main signal not the shunt.

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Edinburgh v5 issues. 15/08/2020 at 12:45 #130679
ajax103
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MarkC in post 130677 said:
ajax103 in post 130675 said:
I'm currently playing the 1993 timetable and I've observed something that I don't understand when setting a specific route at Edinburgh itself.

This being when you have a train in Platform 17 that is behind E483 and you manually set a onward route either from E483 to E485 to E497 or if you set the route from E485 to E497 first then set the route from E483 to E485, E483 will only show a shunt aspect with E485 showing a full aspect.

However, let ARS set the above route and E483 doesn't show a shunt aspect but rather a full aspect so why is this?

So far from a 00:00 start, I'm now at 17:04 and it happens all the time.

Also when you have services leave Thornton Yard and the loco has to run around it's train if you route the train onto the Down Cowenbeath to ET777 either manually or ARS when the route needs to be set from ET953 (Reverse) to ET777, the signal doesn't clear at all so you have to talk the loco past the signal at danger yet if if you route said train onto the loop and run the loco around it's train then when you set the route from ET953 (Reverse) to ET779 you get a shunt signal aspect.

Why is this?
Platform 17 is an odd on and I am not sure why it does it, but if you click on E483 to signal E495 or E497 or E499 (missing out Signal E485) you then get Proceed aspectcs on the main signal not the shunt.
I always thought you had to set the signal from E483 to E485 to E495 etc otherwise isn't the driver passing E485 at danger? Apologies if it sounds wrong but that's how I thought it was done?

I be interested to hear why that's not the case though?

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