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| An interesting idea, perhaps.. 11/01/2010 at 20:24 #521 | |
UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
There is a well known train driving game called BVE4 (also another one called OpenBVE) which you may have heard of. Would it be possible to see a simulation of a BVE4 route? Don't actually mind which one but there are plenty out there to choose from. In-fact it would be quite interesting as I could have a friend running SimSig next to me and signalling my train whilst I drive it in BVE4. I await the funny look from people but welcome all views on this idea. Thanks. Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Log in to reply |
| An interesting idea, perhaps.. 11/01/2010 at 20:24 #5739 | |
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UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
There is a well known train driving game called BVE4 (also another one called OpenBVE) which you may have heard of. Would it be possible to see a simulation of a BVE4 route? Don't actually mind which one but there are plenty out there to choose from. In-fact it would be quite interesting as I could have a friend running SimSig next to me and signalling my train whilst I drive it in BVE4. I await the funny look from people but welcome all views on this idea. Thanks. Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Log in to reply |
| An interesting idea, perhaps.. 11/01/2010 at 20:45 #5740 | |
Peter Bennet
5358 posts |
I seem to remember Kurt mentioning something bout BVE and SimSig a few years ago, but I don't know anything more about what it was he had in mind. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| An interesting idea, perhaps.. 12/01/2010 at 15:27 #5759 | |
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ozzyd9001
131 posts |
have seen and tryed bve and loved it but can not get to grips with downloading other routes and trains so if any one could help me please get in touch yours paul Log in to reply |
| An interesting idea, perhaps.. 12/01/2010 at 15:46 #5762 | |
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Sacro
1171 posts |
We sort of almost have, Saltley was demonstrated at the Derby 09 Meet and there's rumours afloat of Birmingham New Street, this is the same area as the Cross City (Open)BVE route.
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| An interesting idea, perhaps.. 12/01/2010 at 17:12 #5764 | |
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kbarber
1711 posts |
Then all we need to do is find a way for SimSig to alter BVE signal aspects and we're there. At this rate (well, give it a couple more years) we'll be simulating the entire British railway network (although not necessarily at the same time... but then in times of disruption it isn't all operating at the same time so you might say even that's accurate :P). I'm sure the government (of whatever stripe) would think that was just fine... once there's a sim the railway itself can be dispensed with and they never have to worry about it again. Cynical? Moi? Log in to reply |
| An interesting idea, perhaps.. 12/01/2010 at 18:02 #5766 | |
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TomOF
452 posts |
I was doing part of Peterborough some years back. I may resume it once my current projects are out of the way but i've been lacking motivation. The data prep was quite unwieldy and at the time there was no GUI interface. Doing realistic OHLE along that route was mind numbing.
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| An interesting idea, perhaps.. 12/01/2010 at 19:27 #5767 | |
bossman
93 posts |
If you need inspiration then visit Anthony Bowden's site at www.railsimroutes.co.uk and look at the developments he's putting into his Cross City South and Watford to Rugby route. The Cross City South runs from Redditch to Birmingham New Street so will be part of a future sim!
cliff cook Log in to reply |
| An interesting idea, perhaps.. 12/01/2010 at 20:28 #5770 | |
GeoffM
6281 posts |
kbarber said:Then all we need to do is find a way for SimSig to alter BVE signal aspects and we're there.About 3-4 years ago I was involved in the Kuju train simulator project. I tried to convince them that opening up an interface to support signalling or other types of extension (like MS Flight Simulator) would enhance the product no end. I also suggested they learn a bit about signalling. They did neither and the product was, in my opinion, terrible and not just for those reasons. I have already seen the OpenBVE project which has potential but as I understand it there are limitations in terms of switching the driveable route. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| An interesting idea, perhaps.. 12/01/2010 at 20:54 #5771 | |
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TomOF
452 posts |
I tried to contact Kuju at the time offering to assist with the ECML route as prior to that I knew the route pretty well in simulation terms but sadly never got a reply. I haven't had any involvement with OpenBVE but I understand it follows the same format as the traditional one, it is esssentially script based with no branching. It was possible to add a few random parameters but not possible to change tracks. if you wanted to do this you had to program the curves and any other surrounding tracks manually which was laboroious and hard to get right. It was also not possible to change ends and the draw distance was limited to 600m which impacted on the realism of long, straight flat routes such as the ECML south of Stoke Bank. It was possible to get realistic ish looking Multiple aspect signalling but again, the signalling had to be hard coded according to the route to be taken. Having said this, it was freeware and essentially being updated by one person. While improvements where made over time it was the unfortunate lack of routing options and the fact that Data prep was text only that probably put alot of would- be developers off. The actual game play once you got going was pretty amazing, and having had the chance to sample some commercial driving simulators (i.e that the real railway use) last year I would still say that BVE outshone them in some areas. Some major format changes would be needed to interface something like BVE, especially concerning lie of points and block joints. Log in to reply |
| An interesting idea, perhaps.. 12/01/2010 at 22:19 #5775 | |
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Helper
20 posts |
Not sure how BVE has developed but in the early days (about 15 years ago iirc) all the code was written in a spreadsheet and the "program" read the spreadsheet code to create the screenview etc. I remember how annoying it was to code in individual items such as a section of track or piece of scenery so I wrote a compiler that allowed you to choose an item and then place it where you wanted it (using point and click). The compiler then created the code based on the item, position and how you wanted the item to react to certain circumstances. It made creating routes much quicker and more fun.
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| An interesting idea, perhaps.. 12/01/2010 at 22:24 #5776 | |
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UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
Thanks for all the replies. Please allow me to start by briefly clarify something in my original post. I wasn't saying that SimSig and BVE4 (or OpenBVE) be linked up. That was actually just a "passing comment" for a bit of fun, as in I could drive a train whilst a friend signalled me even though he won't actually be signalling me for real in the game, we would just have to pretend so to speak. Also, just to add I don't mind if this is perhaps started off with a small, basic route to see how it goes then maybe have a go at another more detailed route, i.e: Network West Midlands. Since I would obviously be grateful if this did happen at some point in the future, I will quite happily help out in any way I can, for example contacting those behind a route to request their permission (if it were needed) or perhaps obtaining / working out the signal numbers or anything else I can help out with. Cheers. Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Log in to reply |
| An interesting idea, perhaps.. 13/01/2010 at 09:22 #5787 | |
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eezypeazy
1 posts |
As some of you may know, I built a simulation of the ECML northwards from Newcastle to Berwick for BVE 4 / openBVE. The signalling in the sim is reasonably accurate, based on how it appeared in about 2002 (complete with signal numbers!), and how most of it remains today. Integrating a driving sim with a signalling sim will, I think, be very difficult. I've only ever used BVE, openBVE, SimSig (Sheffield) and Train Despatcher (Bridgend area). BVE is essentially a cab-view, single train, single direction driving sim. Although it's possible to "randomise" signalling and passenger delays, the route your train will take is predetermined as the game loads. (BVE Route Randomiser attempts to overcome this by reading the route file before loading it and selecting some alternatives if they are possible, but the results can be strange). SimSig, on the other hand, simulates controlling a track area with many moving trains in all directions. If an "integrated" sim was to be attempted, then it would necessitate the graphics being produced so that, from a driving point of view, all possible routes were modelled, in all directions, complete with the correct passing trains on adjacent lines, reflecting the position in the signalling side of the sim. To me, that sounds like an awful lot of work! And I'm not convinced that such an integrated sim would necessarily enhance either the driving experience or the signalling experience. And whilst the idea of having both a signalling sim and a driving sim of the same stretch of, for example, ECML, might sound attractive, I'm not convinced. While it might be interesting to drive a 220 at 125mph from Belford to Berwick, a sim of the signalman's duties at Tweedmouth Box might be relatively, um... boring.... with only four or five trains an hour at most in each direction, with the occasional looped freight at Crag Mill. Even if this integrated sim chose a busier area, there's usually a "clock face" timetable, so driving the 1012 departure is going to be much like driving the 1212 departure, and so on. So I feel that an integrated sim might be a lot of effort for some very marginal benefit. I thoroughly enjoy my SImSig sessions at Sheffield, and also driving BVE routes as diverse as East Lincolnshire Railway in the 1960s, the modern-day Network West Midlands routes and the fascinating Oropa Tram! And finally - to all developers reading this, signalling, driving or otherwise - thank you, and keep up the good work! Regards eezypeazy Log in to reply |
| An interesting idea, perhaps.. 13/01/2010 at 14:15 #5795 | |
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kbarber
1711 posts |
eezypeazy said:If signalling and routing could be ported from SimSig to the driving sim, the driver would have to drive to signals - including unexpected stops for regulating at junctions, failures ahead etc - and would need a lot more route knowledge than just the one line his train was simulated on. And individual driving habits/characteristics might make a big difference to the way trains run, thus increase the regulating challenge for signalmen - at the moment all trains in SimSig run exactly the same as all the others that share the same parameters (and we certainly don't have drivers on finishing turns hurrying home, or those looking for a bit of overtime losing just enough seconds to need looping). Possible? I imagine so. Practicable? not so sure about that, it'd be a massive programming challenge. But don't programmers like challenges? Log in to reply |
| An interesting idea, perhaps.. 15/01/2010 at 11:14 #5886 | |
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Jan
889 posts |
Well, a Simsig of something like the Network West Midland would indeed be nice, though I guess at the moment there are enough real signal boxes out there, keeping the development team busy. As to integration of driving and signalling sims, maybe some of you have heard of the German train driving simulator Zusi. It's already quite good at simulating rail networks and real timetables, and the new version, which is currently under development, will include a interface for signalling simulations. And of course, mechanical box simulations are only really fun if you can look out of the window, and see the trains passing by; see Rail3D for this. Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick. Log in to reply |
| An interesting idea, perhaps.. 15/01/2010 at 12:53 #5889 | |
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GeoffM
6281 posts |
I've heard of Zusi and played it, long time ago though. Interesting to hear of the new developments and I'll look into its signalling interface.
SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| An interesting idea, perhaps.. 15/01/2010 at 18:07 #5897 | |
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kbarber
1711 posts |
GeoffM said:I've heard of Zusi and played it, long time ago though. Interesting to hear of the new developments and I'll look into its signalling interface. And I thought I was joking with my first response in this thread!!!!! Log in to reply |
| An interesting idea, perhaps.. 15/01/2010 at 20:58 #5903 | |
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Jan
889 posts |
GeoffM said:I've heard of Zusi and played it, long time ago though. Interesting to hear of the new developments and I'll look into its signalling interface. You'd need to contact the program author though, as everything's still under development. The only difficulty I could see is that for Zusi you'd basically program a generic signalling simulation (a simulation of German mechanical boxes is definitively under way, and I think one for the German version of NX panels is planned, too) into which route specific data can be loaded, though of course this data needs to be created by somebody beforehand. With the current design of Simsig I guess this would be a bit difficult, but of course I don't want to put you off. :) On a side note, as somebody mentioned it in this thread beforehand, if there'll ever be simulations for Doncaster and Derby, you could really do a mega-chain with 17 simulations: London Euston - Willesden Suburban - NLL - King's Cross - Cambridge - Peterborough - Doncaster - Sheffield - Trent - Derby - Saltley - Birmingham NS - Saltley - Gloucester - Bristol - Exeter - Westbury - SwinDid Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick. Log in to reply |