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Auto refresh on timetable popup

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Auto refresh on timetable popup 15/10/2020 at 09:12 #133111
manadude2
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We already have auto refresh on the F2 train list, so could we please also have auto refresh on the timetable popup screen?
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Auto refresh on timetable popup 15/10/2020 at 16:33 #133114
flabberdacks
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What kind of refresh frequency did you have in mind? It already updates itself when the selected train passes the next timing point
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Auto refresh on timetable popup 19/10/2020 at 13:25 #133194
manadude2
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I use the timetable box to see the speed and status of an individual train, so down to once per second would be useful.
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Auto refresh on timetable popup 19/10/2020 at 16:47 #133195
flabberdacks
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I don't feel like that fits with SimSig. This is a simulator of the PSB signalling experience, or as best it can be modelled on a home PC. Real life signallers in large boxes are only able to judge how fast a train is moving, or if it is moving at all, by observing the progress of the train across their diagram.

I would recommend breaking from your current method of play and learning to eyeball how well trains are moving through your area, just as is done in the real life PSBs modelled in SimSig.

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Auto refresh on timetable popup 20/10/2020 at 00:47 #133203
GeoffM
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manadude2 in post 133194 said:
I use the timetable box to see the speed and status of an individual train, so down to once per second would be useful.
Kinda cheating...

SimSig Boss
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Auto refresh on timetable popup 20/10/2020 at 09:10 #133206
kbarber
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GeoffM in post 133203 said:
manadude2 in post 133194 said:
I use the timetable box to see the speed and status of an individual train, so down to once per second would be useful.
Kinda cheating...
In real life you just had to wait, as flabberdacks says, until you see something happen. Or not. As at Enfield Town in days of old...

The timetable there had the up train timed to depart a minute after the down road arrived. There used to be a well-known fiddle whereby the down road driver would nip across and take the up road out, thereby taking over the second part of the up driver's diagram (and missing out on his own PNB, but I suspect it was a short shift so little matter). The up driver, meanwhile, had gone home rather than having his PNB and finishing the shift.

This all went fine, of course, as long as the down road was on time. It was perfectly fine as long as the up road was going out pf platform 2, so long as the late running was no more than a minute or so... this was the early days of the class 315s and, running in 305 timings, they could pick up over 5 minutes before London. But if the up road was out of 1 and the down road was late, Enfield signalman would pull off for the up road. And wait... And eventually Lincoln Road Crossing would complain because he had an ever-lengthening queue of traffic. And the station supervisor would be asked to go and see what was wrong, and several minutes later would report that the errant train had no driver (the office was over by the London End of platform 3). So now it was 2 minutes timeout on the platform starter before the down road could be run in. Which, of course, simply couldn't be squared with the Control. So a few days later the drivers received a 'Please Explain' ('Love letter from the Area Manager' it was called in some places) closely followed by the inevitable Form 1s.

That's just how it is if you're the signalman.

Last edited: 20/10/2020 at 09:12 by kbarber
Reason: None given

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Auto refresh on timetable popup 20/10/2020 at 13:15 #133208
danners430
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I have to say, although I agree with flabberdacks that it doesn't fit with the simulation, this is a feature already added to the F2 train list - so I feel adding it to the timetable window would be a help for those who want it. For those of us who don't like it, there could simply be a tick-box to turn it off, and go back to the timing point updates.
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Auto refresh on timetable popup 20/10/2020 at 14:07 #133209
geswedey
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re Enfield there was a time when the DOWN trains off peak arrived a minute after the departure of the UP. I got a Rollicking from a driver on arrival at Enfield when as Guards Instructor I waited time at Bush Hill Park meaning he missed the UP train which he wanted to catch home

In real life you just had to wait, as flabberdacks says, until you see something happen. Or not. As at Enfield Town in days of old...

The timetable there had the up train timed to depart a minute after the down road arrived. There used to be a well-known fiddle whereby the down road driver would nip across and take the up road out, thereby taking over the second part of the up driver's diagram (and missing out on his own PNB, but I suspect it was a short shift so little matter). The up driver, meanwhile, had gone home rather than having his PNB and finishing the shift.

Last edited: 20/10/2020 at 14:24 by geswedey
Reason: None given

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Auto refresh on timetable popup 20/10/2020 at 14:12 #133210
Ray
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In the old sim, when I clicked on a train I got a pop-up with all its info and then if I clicked on another train the first pop-up disappeared and the info for the second train appeared. In my opinion this is preferable. The new sim does not clear the pop-ups and it soon gets very messy if you dont delete them as you go along.
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Auto refresh on timetable popup 20/10/2020 at 14:46 #133211
pedroathome
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Ray in post 133210 said:
In the old sim, when I clicked on a train I got a pop-up with all its info and then if I clicked on another train the first pop-up disappeared and the info for the second train appeared. In my opinion this is preferable. The new sim does not clear the pop-ups and it soon gets very messy if you dont delete them as you go along.
You can disable the multiple TT window popups in F3.

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Auto refresh on timetable popup 20/10/2020 at 18:15 #133212
manadude2
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flabberdacks in post 133195 said:
I don't feel like that fits with SimSig. This is a simulator of the PSB signalling experience, or as best it can be modelled on a home PC. Real life signallers in large boxes are only able to judge how fast a train is moving, or if it is moving at all, by observing the progress of the train across their diagram.

I would recommend breaking from your current method of play and learning to eyeball how well trains are moving through your area, just as is done in the real life PSBs modelled in SimSig.
I'm been playing SimSig since I was 16, so over ten years. This is the way I like to play, and your argument doesn't make much sense considering we have the F2 train list which has the functionality I'm asking for built in already. The only difference here is one train vs the entire train list.


GeoffM in post 133203 said:

Kinda cheating...
Is it really though? We have the same information in the F2 train list, which real life signallers don't have.
And how would we define "cheating" in SimSig? I don't care for the score, I'm playing to relax.



I didn't realise asking for functionality we already have, but in a different window, would be so controversial!

Last edited: 20/10/2020 at 18:18 by manadude2
Reason: None given

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Auto refresh on timetable popup 20/10/2020 at 19:21 #133213
Jan
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At a guess maybe because the timetable window tends to get used more often and therefore any change there is more in-your-face, so to speak?
Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick.
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Auto refresh on timetable popup 20/10/2020 at 19:48 #133215
jc92
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manadude2 in post 133212 said:


GeoffM in post 133203 said:

Kinda cheating...
Is it really though? We have the same information in the F2 train list, which real life signallers don't have.
And how would we define "cheating" in SimSig? I don't care for the score, I'm playing to relax.
It is as explained previously because you have access to information a real signaller wouldn't have.

The F2 train list isn't there to stare at constantly, its there really more for fault finding and hosting purposes. I'd only resort to using it if a train is detained unreasonably in order to check if its missed a join, a rule is applicable etc and ensure there's no bug or error causing it to be held. I equally would use it when hosting to reverse a train, reassign or edit a timetable etc. I don't use it to check the speed or progress of a train, in fact I tend to find such information pointless compared to my gut feeling of how a train is progressing.

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Auto refresh on timetable popup 20/10/2020 at 21:54 #133218
TUT
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danners430 in post 133208 said:
I have to say, although I agree with flabberdacks that it doesn't fit with the simulation, this is a feature already added to the F2 train list - so I feel adding it to the timetable window would be a help for those who want it. For those of us who don't like it, there could simply be a tick-box to turn it off, and go back to the timing point updates.
I do appreciate that F2 already has the info and equally appreciate that with this suggestion you're offering people a choice.

However, sadly I really do feel the snazzy new timetable windows are already trying to do too much. Now I know many people enjoy the updates and whinging about v5 has caused enough controversy to be going on with, but I have experienced (reported by others) a noticeable lag in the new timetable window opening up and displaying the information. It varies, but it can take seconds and even when it does load promptly it definitely feels lethargic compared to the old one, not to mention all the times you click at just the wrong moment and get an empty window. This just wasn't a problem before and I know the pretty colours look smart and people are enjoying being able to customise SimSig to suit themselves, but does the timetable popup need the option to do yet another thing? I've also experienced the problem reported by Albert (https://www.simsig.co.uk/Forum/ThreadView/52378) that eventually, if you click on enough headcodes, SimSig will crash. Now I know one runs SimSig on Wine at one's own risk, but I personally feel that the fact the information is already available through F2 is an argument against duplicating it in the already-overloaded new timetable popup. Of course, if it can be done without slowing anything down or causing any problems, well then it's just a matter of taste and there's no reason not to leave it up to the user whether they want that feature or not, except that one is trying to live up to the 'Sim' part of the name and provide a bit of a challenge (which could well be reason enough). But if not I'd like to keep SimSig slick.

'What? Even at the expense of bells and whistles!?'

'Especially at the expense of bells and whistles!!'

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Auto refresh on timetable popup 20/10/2020 at 22:14 #133220
Meld
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TBH if I want to see an update of a trains status in a timetable window I just click on the refresh button. Pretty much instantaneous, I can't really see any need for this to auto update.

Geoff in all honesty I think that the refresh button is all thats needed, as it allows users to suit their own way of running a sim.

Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!!
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Auto refresh on timetable popup 20/10/2020 at 23:15 #133226
GeoffM
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manadude2 in post 133212 said:
GeoffM in post 133203 said:

Kinda cheating...
Is it really though? We have the same information in the F2 train list, which real life signallers don't have.
Yes, and you pretty much answered your own question!

It was an idea, it was considered and discussed, and I don't have any interest in doing it. Sorry.

SimSig Boss
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Auto refresh on timetable popup 21/10/2020 at 10:28 #133236
manadude2
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GeoffM in post 133226 said:
manadude2 in post 133212 said:
GeoffM in post 133203 said:

Kinda cheating...
Is it really though? We have the same information in the F2 train list, which real life signallers don't have.
Yes, and you pretty much answered your own question!

It was an idea, it was considered and discussed, and I don't have any interest in doing it. Sorry.
Fair enough, I respect the decision. I just don't think using the tools provided within SimSig should be considered cheating at SimSig, but that's just my view.

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Auto refresh on timetable popup 21/10/2020 at 16:56 #133251
pedroathome
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manadude2 in post 133236 said:
GeoffM in post 133226 said:
manadude2 in post 133212 said:
GeoffM in post 133203 said:

Kinda cheating...
Is it really though? We have the same information in the F2 train list, which real life signallers don't have.
Yes, and you pretty much answered your own question!

It was an idea, it was considered and discussed, and I don't have any interest in doing it. Sorry.
Fair enough, I respect the decision. I just don't think using the tools provided within SimSig should be considered cheating at SimSig, but that's just my view.
Just to start out, before going into any detail, I'd consider using anything which a signaller does not have access to in real life to be considered as cheating.

I remember, when I started "playing" SimSig, I used F2 a lot, and the train list to see what was stood at red signals. As time progressed, I used F2 less and less, to the point that now, unless I'm looking to see if something has happened, such as in testing, or a train has reversed direction, again while testing something, its very rare that I open it, and 90% of the time then, its just to see how many trains are currently in the area.

In terms of how I decide which train to route first, once I've played a sim for a while, you get to know which train is likely to approach first based off of its timetable if its long sections, or alternatively, looking at the tracks. A long section with a repeater is going to take much longer than a not so long section without a repeater.

Final point, I suspect that this is equally why the F2 is not refreshed more often for a multiplayer connection, although I do not host often, my upload speed is horrendous. Yes, SimSig does not need much upload speed, but if, and using round numbers here, if I'm hosting a session on a session with 5 clients, each with say 5 TT windows open, that's a lot of updates that would then be going out, sending a significant amount of data extra to what is currently being uploaded and sent out.

James

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Auto refresh on timetable popup 21/10/2020 at 21:21 #133258
Hap
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pedroathome in post 133251 said:
manadude2 in post 133236 said:
GeoffM in post 133226 said:
manadude2 in post 133212 said:
GeoffM in post 133203 said:

Kinda cheating...
Is it really though? We have the same information in the F2 train list, which real life signallers don't have.
Yes, and you pretty much answered your own question!

It was an idea, it was considered and discussed, and I don't have any interest in doing it. Sorry.
Fair enough, I respect the decision. I just don't think using the tools provided within SimSig should be considered cheating at SimSig, but that's just my view.
Just to start out, before going into any detail, I'd consider using anything which a signaller does not have access to in real life to be considered as cheating.

I remember, when I started "playing" SimSig, I used F2 a lot, and the train list to see what was stood at red signals. As time progressed, I used F2 less and less, to the point that now, unless I'm looking to see if something has happened, such as in testing, or a train has reversed direction, again while testing something, its very rare that I open it, and 90% of the time then, its just to see how many trains are currently in the area.

In terms of how I decide which train to route first, once I've played a sim for a while, you get to know which train is likely to approach first based off of its timetable if its long sections, or alternatively, looking at the tracks. A long section with a repeater is going to take much longer than a not so long section without a repeater.

Final point, I suspect that this is equally why the F2 is not refreshed more often for a multiplayer connection, although I do not host often, my upload speed is horrendous. Yes, SimSig does not need much upload speed, but if, and using round numbers here, if I'm hosting a session on a session with 5 clients, each with say 5 TT windows open, that's a lot of updates that would then be going out, sending a significant amount of data extra to what is currently being uploaded and sent out.

James
The joys of the Scottish sims for me for example. I have signed most of the routes of the McSims. Worked over them for the last 14 years. Apart from the odd freight I never need to use the F2 or F8. I find regulating a lot easier not having to pop them up all the time when you know the routes and services and which order they're meant to be in.

HAP
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Auto refresh on timetable popup 22/10/2020 at 09:03 #133260
kbarber
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I think a lot of what we're talking about here is experiential knowledge, of the kind referred to in this RAIB report https://www.gov.uk/government/news/report-032020-class-investigation-into-human-performance-in-signalling-operation My own conversations with an investigator involved in preparing the report suggests this includes a lot of what I would think of as implicit knowledge.

Those things come surprisingly quickly. When I used to 'visit' boxes in the late 1970s/early '80s, I could very quickly get the 'feel' of a box and its traffic and would be able to regulate without needing the signalman standing over me all the time (though I don't think I ever took a decision like that without at least glancing at him to check he was happy). Likewise with bell codes in absolute block working: the first time I visited a Midland line box, I found I could scarcely count the beats they were rung so fast, but within a couple of visits I could easily distinguish the various codes - there was something about the way they were rung that conveyed a rhythm even though it was completely indistinguishable to the untrained ear.

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Auto refresh on timetable popup 22/10/2020 at 09:58 #133261
TimTamToe
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kbarber in post 133260 said:
I think a lot of what we're talking about here is experiential knowledge, of the kind referred to in this RAIB report https://www.gov.uk/government/news/report-032020-class-investigation-into-human-performance-in-signalling-operation My own conversations with an investigator involved in preparing the report suggests this includes a lot of what I would think of as implicit knowledge.

Those things come surprisingly quickly. When I used to 'visit' boxes in the late 1970s/early '80s, I could very quickly get the 'feel' of a box and its traffic and would be able to regulate without needing the signalman standing over me all the time (though I don't think I ever took a decision like that without at least glancing at him to check he was happy). Likewise with bell codes in absolute block working: the first time I visited a Midland line box, I found I could scarcely count the beats they were rung so fast, but within a couple of visits I could easily distinguish the various codes - there was something about the way they were rung that conveyed a rhythm even though it was completely indistinguishable to the untrained ear.

Is this going to be covered in your first or second book Keith ;)

Gareth

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Auto refresh on timetable popup 22/10/2020 at 10:33 #133262
bugsy
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TimTamToe in post 133261 said:
kbarber in post 133260 said:
I think a lot of what we're talking about here is experiential knowledge, of the kind referred to in this RAIB report https://www.gov.uk/government/news/report-032020-class-investigation-into-human-performance-in-signalling-operation My own conversations with an investigator involved in preparing the report suggests this includes a lot of what I would think of as implicit knowledge.

Those things come surprisingly quickly. When I used to 'visit' boxes in the late 1970s/early '80s, I could very quickly get the 'feel' of a box and its traffic and would be able to regulate without needing the signalman standing over me all the time (though I don't think I ever took a decision like that without at least glancing at him to check he was happy). Likewise with bell codes in absolute block working: the first time I visited a Midland line box, I found I could scarcely count the beats they were rung so fast, but within a couple of visits I could easily distinguish the various codes - there was something about the way they were rung that conveyed a rhythm even though it was completely indistinguishable to the untrained ear.

Is this going to be covered in your first or second book Keith ;)

Gareth
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