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6M01 released in front of 9M18 - has Lockerbie signaller gone mad?

You are here: Home > Forum > Simulations > Released > Carlisle > 6M01 released in front of 9M18 - has Lockerbie signaller gone mad?

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6M01 released in front of 9M18 - has Lockerbie signaller gone mad? 20/10/2020 at 22:02 #133219
bugsy
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I'm playing the Carlisle Summer 2018 timetable and look what's just happened.
I thought that I was a useless (armchair) signaller, but even I wouldn't have done this. And just for the record, Motherwell didn't phone to ask if 6M91 could be sent early!
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Your life can have a thousand different meanings or maybe just one....I'd recommend more than one in case you got it wrong - (Rezende)
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6M01 released in front of 9M18 - has Lockerbie signaller gone mad? 20/10/2020 at 22:20 #133221
HST125Scorton
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bugsy in post 133219 said:
I'm playing the Carlisle Summer 2018 timetable and look what's just happened.
I thought that I was a useless (armchair) signaller, but even I wouldn't have done this. And just for the record, Motherwell didn't phone to ask if 6M91 could be sent early!
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Could you confirm 6M01 timetable has the tick box checked for it not to leave early from Lockerbie UPL? I thought I had fixed this when testing.

Aaron (AJRO)
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6M01 released in front of 9M18 - has Lockerbie signaller gone mad? 20/10/2020 at 22:50 #133222
bugsy
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Sorry, but I haven't been able to find the tick box that you referred to. All I could find was the tt Editor as shown in the screenshot.
Perhaps you could guide me to it's location.
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6M01 released in front of 9M18 - has Lockerbie signaller gone mad? 20/10/2020 at 22:54 #133223
postal
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bugsy in post 133222 said:
Sorry, but I haven't been able to find the tick box that you referred to. All I could find was the tt Editor as shown in the screenshot.
Perhaps you could guide me to it's location.
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Perhaps the "Enter on Time" check box?

Does raise a wider issue about SimSig regulation for trains entering at an entry point which feeds into a potential conflict (i.e. why should the TT writer have to check that box where there is a potential regulation conflict when it could be a correct decision to allow the train to enter if the following train is delayed).

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
Last edited: 21/10/2020 at 08:25 by postal
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6M01 released in front of 9M18 - has Lockerbie signaller gone mad? 20/10/2020 at 23:07 #133224
bugsy
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Ah. I wasn't looking for an 'enter on time' check box but I found the right window then.
6M01 has followed the instructions and entered at the 'Entry time' with the 5 minute delay as shown.

I have attached a saved game so that you can play it through to see what happens.

Edit: As 6M01 appeared in the loop I would have expected it to wait for 9M48 to pass.

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Last edited: 20/10/2020 at 23:10 by bugsy
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6M01 released in front of 9M18 - has Lockerbie signaller gone mad? 20/10/2020 at 23:28 #133228
MarkC
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I had a look at the save and the timetable 6M01 does have a wait for depart ticked under the location Lockerbie loop so that train is correct, what is not clear from what you have provided is if 9M48 is running late or if the route for 6M01 got set early ignoring the must wait for depart time, the areas out side of the signallers area are dumb in that they operate more or less under a first come first serve system. Having ran your save all worked as expected. if you have a save that was taken at the time the routing happened that would be much more helpful, A save game is always much more helpful than a picture.
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6M01 released in front of 9M18 - has Lockerbie signaller gone mad? 20/10/2020 at 23:53 #133229
headshot119
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The off sim signaller will just let stuff out first come first served basis, as that's how the original developer of the simulation coded it. Editing the timetable etc will make no difference.

There's an open Mantis ticket to look at improving it, but I've not got a timescale on that.

"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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6M01 released in front of 9M18 - has Lockerbie signaller gone mad? 21/10/2020 at 00:36 #133231
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As a partial fix a rule can be applied that 6M01 doesn't enter until 0 minutes after 9M18 has entered which will prevent this, however if 9M18 was VERY late, it will also unrealistically delay 6M01. Authors call on that really.
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6M01 released in front of 9M18 - has Lockerbie signaller gone mad? 21/10/2020 at 00:57 #133232
MarkC
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jc92 in post 133231 said:
As a partial fix a rule can be applied that 6M01 doesn't enter until 0 minutes after 9M18 has entered which will prevent this, however if 9M18 was VERY late, it will also unrealistically delay 6M01. Authors call on that really.
That rule would not be appropiate here, 6M01 is due to enter the sim at around 0625 and it is timetable to sit at signal MC824 (Lockerbie Loop) until 0645 (tt is set for the train not to depart until that time) 9M48 is TT to enter at 06:43:30, so either 9M48 is running late and based on the First come first serve principle is that 0645 has arrived and 9M48 has not yet entered 6M01 can call for the route and be granted it, the other is the must wait until depart has failed.

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6M01 released in front of 9M18 - has Lockerbie signaller gone mad? 21/10/2020 at 01:30 #133233
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MarkC in post 133232 said:
jc92 in post 133231 said:
As a partial fix a rule can be applied that 6M01 doesn't enter until 0 minutes after 9M18 has entered which will prevent this, however if 9M18 was VERY late, it will also unrealistically delay 6M01. Authors call on that really.
That rule would not be appropiate here, 6M01 is due to enter the sim at around 0625 and it is timetable to sit at signal MC824 (Lockerbie Loop) until 0645 (tt is set for the train not to depart until that time) 9M48 is TT to enter at 06:43:30, so either 9M48 is running late and based on the First come first serve principle is that 0645 has arrived and 9M48 has not yet entered 6M01 can call for the route and be granted it, the other is the must wait until depart has failed.
Why does it enter at 0625 if the departure time is 0645 (yes I know Carlisle is the only sim this is possible on, but it doesn't have to be done that way). Just have it enter at 06:45 at the loop entry point and the rule will work.

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6M01 released in front of 9M18 - has Lockerbie signaller gone mad? 21/10/2020 at 09:29 #133234
bugsy
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MarkC in post 133232 said:
jc92 in post 133231 said:
As a partial fix a rule can be applied that 6M01 doesn't enter until 0 minutes after 9M18 has entered which will prevent this, however if 9M18 was VERY late, it will also unrealistically delay 6M01. Authors call on that really.
That rule would not be appropiate here, 6M01 is due to enter the sim at around 0625 and it is timetable to sit at signal MC824 (Lockerbie Loop) until 0645 (tt is set for the train not to depart until that time) 9M48 is TT to enter at 06:43:30, so either 9M48 is running late and based on the First come first serve principle is that 0645 has arrived and 9M48 has not yet entered 6M01 can call for the route and be granted it, the other is the must wait until depart has failed.
I think that you'll find that 9M48 was running late as It's 11 minutes late when passing Southwaite. Edit: I always run sims with delays set at low.

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Last edited: 21/10/2020 at 09:30 by bugsy
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6M01 released in front of 9M18 - has Lockerbie signaller gone mad? 21/10/2020 at 10:29 #133237
Albert
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MarkC in post 133232 said:
That rule would not be appropiate here, 6M01 is due to enter the sim at around 0625 and it is timetable to sit at signal MC824 (Lockerbie Loop) until 0645 (tt is set for the train not to depart until that time) 9M48 is TT to enter at 06:43:30, so either 9M48 is running late and based on the First come first serve principle is that 0645 has arrived and 9M48 has not yet entered 6M01 can call for the route and be granted it, the other is the must wait until depart has failed.
The 79/80 timetable contains some rules that a freight train may depart from the loop after the passenger has departed from/passed Lockerbie. That would work, except in the scenario of a very delayed passenger train.

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6M01 released in front of 9M18 - has Lockerbie signaller gone mad? 21/10/2020 at 10:50 #133238
headshot119
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Rules etc, won't help the situation.

Quote:
The off sim signaller will just let stuff out on a first come first served basis, as that's how the original developer of the simulation coded it. Editing the timetable etc will make no difference.

There's an open Mantis ticket to look at improving it, but I've not got a timescale on that.

"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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6M01 released in front of 9M18 - has Lockerbie signaller gone mad? 21/10/2020 at 10:57 #133239
Albert
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The rule to hold trains at the loop does work fine in the 79/80 TT though - but of course, only for trains that use this loop.
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6M01 released in front of 9M18 - has Lockerbie signaller gone mad? 21/10/2020 at 11:06 #133240
headshot119
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Albert in post 133239 said:
The rule to hold trains at the loop does work fine in the 79/80 TT though - but of course, only for trains that use this loop.
I'm not sure if there's any timetable rules applied in the 79/80 timetable to trains at Lockerbie up Loop. Even if there is, you still end up with the same problem where the off sim signaller is working on a first come first served basis, and has a habit of throwing freight out in front of a passenger.

Nothing the player, or timetable writer can do will fundamentally alter what I've said, there's always a risk they will chuck a freight out in front of a passenger.

As I've said before, there's an open Mantis ticket to look at improving the situation, but there's no timescale on it.

"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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6M01 released in front of 9M18 - has Lockerbie signaller gone mad? 21/10/2020 at 11:12 #133241
jc92
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headshot119 in post 133238 said:
Rules etc, won't help the situation.

Quote:
The off sim signaller will just let stuff out on a first come first served basis, as that's how the original developer of the simulation coded it. Editing the timetable etc will make no difference.

There's an open Mantis ticket to look at improving it, but I've not got a timescale on that.
Not with timetable written for it to wait time for 20 mins in the loop, however as explained, they will resolve it if it was just timed to enter at 0645 with a passing time for the loop, as it wouldn't enter until after 9M18 at 0643, ergo the first come first served will give 9M18 priority.

As Albert says, this has been done in the 1979 timetable successfully with certain troublesome freights.

edit: Attached a test timetable as proof - 1Z00 enters 2 mins after 9z00 was due to enter(artifically made late) and 9Z00 is held back beyond booked entry time as a result until 1Z00 has passed lockerbie.

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6M01 released in front of 9M18 - has Lockerbie signaller gone mad? 21/10/2020 at 11:26 #133242
headshot119
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Okay, and if 1Z00 enters an hour later, so 9Z00 is held to be an hour late. That's not resolving the problem at all is it?

I'll retreat out of this thread as we're just going round in circles. Ultimately it's a simulation issue that's been logged on Mantis for attention. I wouldn't encourage timetable writers to spend time trying to work round something like this.

"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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6M01 released in front of 9M18 - has Lockerbie signaller gone mad? 21/10/2020 at 11:27 #133243
Albert
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I think Karl means that some edge cases like a very late freight or very late passenger train aren't caught that way. Then a freight might get thrown before an unexpected class 1, and that freight train is probably not even timetabled to use the loop. EDIT: our posts crossed each other.

First come first serve probably only applies to trains that actually want to depart from Lockerbie, i.e. not held back by rules?

Maybe the solution would be to introduce a phonecall, i.e. does train X need to be looped or can train Y leave the loop.

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6M01 released in front of 9M18 - has Lockerbie signaller gone mad? 21/10/2020 at 11:30 #133244
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I'm fairly sure I already said that initially Karl when I said "partial fix" and explained that a very late 9M18 would unrealistically delay 6M01....
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6M01 released in front of 9M18 - has Lockerbie signaller gone mad? 21/10/2020 at 14:52 #133247
bfcmik
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In reality how long would a signaller be allowed to delay a freight for a late running passenger train?

At some point it must be easier/cheaper to delay the passenger train for a few extra minutes rather than the freight.

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6M01 released in front of 9M18 - has Lockerbie signaller gone mad? 21/10/2020 at 15:31 #133248
bugsy
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The passenger train in this case was very nearly at the point where the loop joins the main line as you can see in my original screenshot.
In reality this situation probably wouldn't have developed. The freight would have delayed the passenger train quite considerably I would have thought.

Your life can have a thousand different meanings or maybe just one....I'd recommend more than one in case you got it wrong - (Rezende)
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6M01 released in front of 9M18 - has Lockerbie signaller gone mad? 21/10/2020 at 17:23 #133252
Steamer
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After a few instances on Hereford of freights being run just in front of passenger trains from Newport, I took the approach of checking the delays of all trains entering from there and adjusting the delay on freight trains to put them behind the passenger if they were going to enter just ahead of it.

Note that the changes made to the entry delay aren't saved with the timetable or, if I remember correctly, a saved game.

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6M01 released in front of 9M18 - has Lockerbie signaller gone mad? 22/10/2020 at 16:57 #133266
bugsy
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You could say that it's a bit sad, but I have started another Carlisle Summer 2018 sim as I enjoyed the first one so much.
This time 6M01 was held in the Lockerbie loop and 9M48 passed it. I presume that delays to trains are random so each time a sim is played different trains are delayed by different amounts. And I have the delays set higher as well just to cause a bit of aggro.
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Your life can have a thousand different meanings or maybe just one....I'd recommend more than one in case you got it wrong - (Rezende)
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6M01 released in front of 9M18 - has Lockerbie signaller gone mad? 22/10/2020 at 19:49 #133267
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As a temporary work-around, I have taken to immediately upon entry pausing (through F2) any trains at Lockerbie Up Loop. This prevents the 'Lockerbie Signaller' from routing the train out of the loop.

The train can then be un-paused when there is a suitable path available - although this obviously requires coordination through the timetable (F4) and simplifier (F8) as mentioned above by @Steamer.

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6M01 released in front of 9M18 - has Lockerbie signaller gone mad? 22/10/2020 at 22:03 #133268
bugsy
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Mmm..... Might consider doing that myself.
Your life can have a thousand different meanings or maybe just one....I'd recommend more than one in case you got it wrong - (Rezende)
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