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Will Bristol ever be released for the loader

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Will Bristol ever be released for the loader 28/11/2020 at 09:51 #134195
alan_s
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I see that Bristol has been withdrawn due to its age. Will it ever be updated or is it lost for ever? Whilst it would be nice to have the 4 track filton layout as an option, just having the thing in the loader with the Avonmouth BHT bug fixed - which many years ago the developer did say he'd fixed but the update was never released, presumably because it might have broken chaining with Westbury etc.
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Will Bristol ever be released for the loader 28/11/2020 at 10:56 #134197
ajax103
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alan_s in post 134195 said:
I see that Bristol has been withdrawn due to its age. Will it ever be updated or is it lost for ever? Whilst it would be nice to have the 4 track filton layout as an option, just having the thing in the loader with the Avonmouth BHT bug fixed - which many years ago the developer did say he'd fixed but the update was never released, presumably because it might have broken chaining with Westbury etc.
I may be wrong but I was under the impression that it was withdrawn because it was being worked on, how accurate that might be I don't know but I would hope that as Newport is released on the loader that Bristol has been removed to enable full compatibly with the Newport simulation and will come back at some point as a loader simulation.

That either as a completely reworked Bristol or just a conversion with the original data to the loader format I don't know but I hope it's one or the other.

In any case, it's just a simple case of how long is the piece of string to how long, when or if it be released again.

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Will Bristol ever be released for the loader 28/11/2020 at 10:57 #134198
Peter Bennet
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I doubt it'll be updated as the original author is long left the scene, I did offer to update (as I happened to have a copy of the data) for him but did not get permission. It's more likely that someone will have to start from scratch if they are so minded, Gloucester and Trent are in the same position.

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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Will Bristol ever be released for the loader 28/11/2020 at 11:13 #134199
mfloyd
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Is there a time period when any copyright issues cease after development?
Ripley, Derbyshire
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Will Bristol ever be released for the loader 28/11/2020 at 11:38 #134204
Peter Bennet
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mfloyd in post 134199 said:
Is there a time period when any copyright issues cease after development?

If you do a search of the forum you will find this has been done to death a few time.

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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Will Bristol ever be released for the loader 28/11/2020 at 11:47 #134205
postal
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mfloyd in post 134199 said:
Is there a time period when any copyright issues cease after development?
From https://copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/uk_law_summary

"For literary, dramatic, musical or artistic works

70 years from the end of the calendar year in which the last remaining author of the work dies, or the work is made available to the public, by authorised performance, broadcast, exhibition, etc.

The Copyright (Computer Programs) Regulations 1992 extended the rules covering literary works to include computer programs."

If I read it correctly that means about 60 years yet before any re-working of the sim by a third party could be released unless the original author gives permission.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
Last edited: 28/11/2020 at 11:47 by postal
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Will Bristol ever be released for the loader 28/11/2020 at 12:52 #134208
Dick
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Interesting that the copyright is vested with the author of the sim rather than Simsig, is that still the case with later sims or was that an early anomaly before Cajon Rail was formed.
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Will Bristol ever be released for the loader 28/11/2020 at 14:38 #134214
jc92
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postal in post 134205 said:
mfloyd in post 134199 said:
Is there a time period when any copyright issues cease after development?
From https://copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/uk_law_summary

"For literary, dramatic, musical or artistic works

70 years from the end of the calendar year in which the last remaining author of the work dies, or the work is made available to the public, by authorised performance, broadcast, exhibition, etc.

The Copyright (Computer Programs) Regulations 1992 extended the rules covering literary works to include computer programs."

If I read it correctly that means about 60 years yet before any re-working of the sim by a third party could be released unless the original author gives permission.
So...it'll be ready when its ready?

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Will Bristol ever be released for the loader 28/11/2020 at 15:40 #134216
Trainfan344
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jc92 in post 134214 said:
postal in post 134205 said:
mfloyd in post 134199 said:
Is there a time period when any copyright issues cease after development?
From https://copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/uk_law_summary

"For literary, dramatic, musical or artistic works

70 years from the end of the calendar year in which the last remaining author of the work dies, or the work is made available to the public, by authorised performance, broadcast, exhibition, etc.

The Copyright (Computer Programs) Regulations 1992 extended the rules covering literary works to include computer programs."

If I read it correctly that means about 60 years yet before any re-working of the sim by a third party could be released unless the original author gives permission.
So...it'll be ready when its ready? :D
I'll just schedule a post for January 1st 2081 to ask if it's ready yet?

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Will Bristol ever be released for the loader 28/11/2020 at 18:09 #134221
GeoffM
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Dick in post 134208 said:
Interesting that the copyright is vested with the author of the sim rather than Simsig, is that still the case with later sims or was that an early anomaly before Cajon Rail was formed.
An analogy might be between a word processor (the Loader) and an author's books (the sims).

SimSig Boss
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Will Bristol ever be released for the loader 28/11/2020 at 22:41 #134235
Dick
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Hmm, not really. The sims are produced under the auspices of Simsig. But hey ho.
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Will Bristol ever be released for the loader 28/11/2020 at 22:43 #134237
GeoffM
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Dick in post 134235 said:
Hmm, not really. The sims are produced under the auspices of Simsig. But hey ho.
Well, we add quality control and direction, so like a publisher as well, but I was trying to keep it simple. Never mind.

SimSig Boss
Last edited: 28/11/2020 at 22:44 by GeoffM
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Will Bristol ever be released for the loader 28/11/2020 at 23:10 #134241
jc92
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Think of the data as a developers property which Geoff reaches a contractual agreement to use in order to provide a released sim. The developer is permitting the data to be used while retaining ownership and copyright in return for whatever Geoff provides in return, if anything.

You could liken it to writing a book, where you buy some photos and research data from a company that did a study on the subject. they still own the data and photos, but reach an agreement for you to publish them in a book under your name. underlying this is a contract stating how the data will and won't be used, and what return will be provided to the company.

**Mon note pending approval from GM*

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
Last edited: 28/11/2020 at 23:20 by headshot119
Reason: Deleted by moderator

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Will Bristol ever be released for the loader 29/11/2020 at 01:29 #134242
postal
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Dick in post 134235 said:
Hmm, not really. The sims are produced under the auspices of Simsig. But hey ho.
To use another slightly dated analogy, who holds the copyright when a hard copy book is published? For example picking a random book of my bookshelf is says "This trade paperback published in 2005 by Orion" and then below that "Copyright © 2004 John Rebus Limited" and then "The right of Ian Rankin to be identified as the author of this work has been asserted by him in accordance with the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988". Seems to indicate a clear demarcation between publisher and owner of the copyright.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
Last edited: 29/11/2020 at 01:31 by postal
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Will Bristol ever be released for the loader 29/11/2020 at 01:38 #134243
JamesN
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mfloyd in post 134199 said:
Is there a time period when any copyright issues cease after development?
Nobody has stated copyright is a factor in upgrading Bristol sim or not.

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Will Bristol ever be released for the loader 29/11/2020 at 08:07 #134244
Peter Bennet
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JamesN in post 134243 said:
mfloyd in post 134199 said:
Is there a time period when any copyright issues cease after development?
Nobody has stated copyright is a factor in upgrading Bristol sim or not.
True, though that was what I was getting at; the data belongs to Kurt.

However, it does seem that this thread is becoming dejavu: the sequel.

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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Will Bristol ever be released for the loader 30/11/2020 at 20:44 #134288
clive
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postal in post 134242 said:

To use another slightly dated analogy, who holds the copyright when a hard copy book is published? For example picking a random book of my bookshelf is says "This trade paperback published in 2005 by Orion" and then below that "Copyright © 2004 John Rebus Limited"
The copyright in a book - with some exceptions - comes from the author and lasts until 70 years after the author's death. Copyright is property that you can sell, lease, mortgage, and so on. In this case, Ian Rankin has sold the copyright in the book to John Rebus Limited (which I suspect he owns), so it's JRL that receives the royalties for the book and gets to decide who else can publish it. I could (attempt to) buy the copyright off JRL, or lease it (e.g. I get the royalties for 5 years in exchange for a fixed amount each year). But the right to decide who can publish the book ends 70 years after Rankin dies, irrespective of who owns the copyright at that point.

JRL will have come to a deal with the publisher along the lines of "you can publish hardback versions of this book if you pay me £2 per copy sold, but you pay me the first £100,000 of that money the day I deliver the manuscript to you even though you haven't sold those copies yet". (He's a big name author: I didn't get that good a deal.) JRL retains the copyright; the publisher has their permission to publish.

postal in post 134242 said:

and then "The right of Ian Rankin to be identified as the author of this work has been asserted by him in accordance with the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988". Seems to indicate a clear demarcation between publisher and owner of the copyright.
That's to do with something called "moral rights", such as the right to have your name associated with the work (or not to if you don't like it), the right not to have it published in corrupted form, and so on.

Last edited: 30/11/2020 at 20:47 by clive
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Will Bristol ever be released for the loader 30/11/2020 at 20:51 #134290
clive
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Trainfan344 in post 134216 said:
jc92 in post 134214 said:
postal in post 134205 said:
mfloyd in post 134199 said:
Is there a time period when any copyright issues cease after development?
From https://copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/uk_law_summary

"For literary, dramatic, musical or artistic works

70 years from the end of the calendar year in which the last remaining author of the work dies, or the work is made available to the public, by authorised performance, broadcast, exhibition, etc.

The Copyright (Computer Programs) Regulations 1992 extended the rules covering literary works to include computer programs."

If I read it correctly that means about 60 years yet before any re-working of the sim by a third party could be released unless the original author gives permission.
So...it'll be ready when its ready? :D
I'll just schedule a post for January 1st 2081 to ask if it's ready yet? :P
Sorry, the author is known. So the "70 years after they die" rule applies. The "made available" rule only applies if the author is unknown.

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Will Bristol ever be released for the loader 02/12/2020 at 02:46 #134313
axmh
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So if you make Bristol from scatch or from ground up using data from Quail map books or whatever and umpteen visits to Bristol areas as to get the layout details and movements of freights and paxs, are you infringing the copyright even if the layouts is similar to one a!ready done on Simsig or as there in location in real life ??
Last edited: 02/12/2020 at 02:47 by axmh
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Will Bristol ever be released for the loader 02/12/2020 at 07:03 #134315
clive
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axmh in post 134313 said:
So if you make Bristol from scatch or from ground up using data from Quail map books or whatever and umpteen visits to Bristol areas as to get the layout details and movements of freights and paxs, are you infringing the copyright even if the layouts is similar to one a!ready done on Simsig or as there in location in real life ??
Copyright violation requires copying. Facts can't be copyrighted, only how they are presented can be subject to copyright.

So if you build a Bristol sim from scratch then there would be no violation. But if you copy, for example, the exact layout of the sim in aspects (sorry) that aren't forced by the facts (e.g. exactly how long each platform is drawn) then that is a breach of copyright. The law requires a substantive component to be copied to be a violation, not the whole thing, and it doesn't have to be an exact copy to be a problem.

So if someone were to do this, it would be best if they didn't even look at the existing sim while doing so.

Last edited: 02/12/2020 at 07:04 by clive
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Will Bristol ever be released for the loader 02/12/2020 at 09:03 #134317
kbarber
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clive in post 134315 said:
axmh in post 134313 said:
So if you make Bristol from scatch or from ground up using data from Quail map books or whatever and umpteen visits to Bristol areas as to get the layout details and movements of freights and paxs, are you infringing the copyright even if the layouts is similar to one a!ready done on Simsig or as there in location in real life ??
Copyright violation requires copying. Facts can't be copyrighted, only how they are presented can be subject to copyright.

So if you build a Bristol sim from scratch then there would be no violation. But if you copy, for example, the exact layout of the sim in aspects (sorry) that aren't forced by the facts (e.g. exactly how long each platform is drawn) then that is a breach of copyright. The law requires a substantive component to be copied to be a violation, not the whole thing, and it doesn't have to be an exact copy to be a problem.

So if someone were to do this, it would be best if they didn't even look at the existing sim while doing so.
I do admire your summaries of this stuff Clive. My partner earned himself a very comfortable living teaching this stuff for many years, and it is complicated!! For anyone attempting a new build, the greater distance you can put between yourself and Kurt's version, the better.

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Will Bristol ever be released for the loader 02/12/2020 at 10:51 #134319
pedroathome
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axmh in post 134313 said:
So if you make Bristol from scatch or from ground up using data from Quail map books or whatever and umpteen visits to Bristol areas as to get the layout details and movements of freights and paxs, are you infringing the copyright even if the layouts is similar to one a!ready done on Simsig or as there in location in real life ??

You would use things like panel photos to draw out the sim, and see how the area fits together, along with scale diagrams of the various interlockings for speeds, track lengths, etc.

Things like Quail can help get an idea of the overall layout in context, but does not offer any form of accuracy for inserting track lengths etc. For example, how long is each leg on a track circuit, where is the signal located on a track circuit, what aspects can various signals display, etc

kbarber in post 134317 said:
I do admire your summaries of this stuff Clive. My partner earned himself a very comfortable living teaching this stuff for many years, and it is complicated!! For anyone attempting a new build, the greater distance you can put between yourself and Kurt's version, the better.

If you compare the Bristol sim to panel photos available on , there are a small number of things located on incorrect track circuits, missing tracks, or additional. I suspect a new sim would also be much more restrictive. There will also always be slight differences to how people interoperate the layout. (Edit) This should read that although the overall design would be the same, there can be slight differences in how this gets drawn. Some bits less stretched, some bits more, etc.

Last edited: 02/12/2020 at 10:53 by pedroathome
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Will Bristol ever be released for the loader 02/12/2020 at 11:16 #134320
clive
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kbarber in post 134317 said:

I do admire your summaries of this stuff Clive. My partner earned himself a very comfortable living teaching this stuff for many years, and it is complicated!!
Thank you. I do try to get it right: I do have an LL.M.(Edin) in this stuff and used to teach it a bit myself, though it didn't pay very much.

See here for my essays and dissertation (which involves railways).

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Will Bristol ever be released for the loader 02/12/2020 at 18:09 #134338
Steamer
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pedroathome in post 134319 said:


If you compare the Bristol sim to panel photos available on , there are a small number of things located on incorrect track circuits, missing tracks, or additional. I suspect a new sim would also be much more restrictive. There will also always be slight differences to how people interoperate the layout. (Edit) This should read that although the overall design would be the same, there can be slight differences in how this gets drawn. Some bits less stretched, some bits more, etc.
It's also worth pointing out that the SimSig core code has advanced massively since the last Bristol release. Ground Frames and Western-region style auto controls are two things off the top of my head that can be done now. I think I'm also right in saying that the level crossings and eras in Bristol were implemented as bespoke custom features, rather than being standard SimSig components. There'll doubtless be plenty of other features that can now be implemented, or implemented in a different way to the original simulation.

I recall it being mentioned in relation to another old sim that it would take as long to unpick and re-build the old one as to start again from scratch.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Will Bristol ever be released for the loader 02/12/2020 at 19:06 #134342
pedroathome
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Steamer in post 134338 said:
pedroathome in post 134319 said:


If you compare the Bristol sim to panel photos available on , there are a small number of things located on incorrect track circuits, missing tracks, or additional. I suspect a new sim would also be much more restrictive. There will also always be slight differences to how people interoperate the layout. (Edit) This should read that although the overall design would be the same, there can be slight differences in how this gets drawn. Some bits less stretched, some bits more, etc.
It's also worth pointing out that the SimSig core code has advanced massively since the last Bristol release. Ground Frames and Western-region style auto controls are two things off the top of my head that can be done now. I think I'm also right in saying that the level crossings and eras in Bristol were implemented as bespoke custom features, rather than being standard SimSig components. There'll doubtless be plenty of other features that can now be implemented, or implemented in a different way to the original simulation.

I recall it being mentioned in relation to another old sim that it would take as long to unpick and re-build the old one as to start again from scratch.


Not forgetting Graidents. I can think of more than one occasion that I have been walking around Horfields in the past where a loaded coal train has been making its way up the bank, that someone could walk up the bank faster than the train.

James

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