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1A53 wrong route not queried by driver

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1A53 wrong route not queried by driver 04/01/2021 at 22:20 #135969
bugsy
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It's 09:00 and I've just noticed 1A53 trundling towards Polmont Jn. having just passed Greenhill Upper Jn. where it should have gone towards Greenhill Lower Jn. and on to Stirling. The driver didn’t query the wrong route. 15-10-09 (04:45) tt.
I should have noticed the headcode before miss-routing this train, although did recognise it when it was already too late. Trying to get to grips with Headcodes with at least some success now.

Don't know if a save is required, so put one here just in case it is. It's roughly 8-9 minutes beforehand.
....


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1A53 wrong route not queried by driver 04/01/2021 at 23:15 #135971
postal
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bugsy in post 135969 said:
It's 09:00 and I've just noticed 1A53 trundling towards Polmont Jn. having just passed Greenhill Upper Jn. where it should have gone towards Greenhill Lower Jn. and on to Stirling. The driver didn’t query the wrong route. 15-10-09 (04:45) tt.
I should have noticed the headcode before miss-routing this train, although did recognise it when it was already too late. Trying to get to grips with Headcodes with at least some success now.

Don't know if a save is required, so put one here just in case it is. It's roughly 8-9 minutes beforehand.
....

The service to Aberdeen could pass Polmont then go forward to Aberdeen via Winchburgh Jn, Dalmeny, Forth Bridge, Ladybank then either Perth or Dundee so there is a valid alternative route (although whether the driver would sign for any of that . . . ).

As I said in another topic last week, "when does SimSig stop being a signalling simulation with all that requires in terms of becoming the proxy signaller for the simulation (i.e. knowing the area, knowing the TT, regulating accordingly etc.) and start becoming a computer game with error traps built in to take away the responsibility which normally lies on the signaller's shoulders"?

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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1A53 wrong route not queried by driver 05/01/2021 at 09:48 #135978
kbarber
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postal in post 135971 said:

As I said in another topic last week, "when does SimSig stop being a signalling simulation with all that requires in terms of becoming the proxy signaller for the simulation (i.e. knowing the area, knowing the TT, regulating accordingly etc.) and start becoming a computer game with error traps built in to take away the responsibility which normally lies on the signaller's shoulders"?
Important question. But a driver querying a wrong route would definitely be part of a signalling sim (though in my experience they were a little less genteel than the SimSig phone calls!!!) Places where drivers could accept a route other than booked tended to be laid down in the Sectional Appendix (and of course the instruction only applied to trains not booked to call intermediately). Other instances might be a result of Control intervention (in which case the driver's route knowledge would have been checked and there would be a phone call with instructions for the diversion); that might apply to just one train or to a significant part of the service. Or a failure might require a diversion, in which case there would undoubtedly be a 'wrong route' call and the bobby would have to check whether the driver signed the alternative route - and be completely boxed up if they didn't (with, usually, a call to Control to authorise the diversion as well). (Might that be another feature that could be included when the core code team have some spare time?)

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1A53 wrong route not queried by driver 05/01/2021 at 09:57 #135980
postal
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kbarber in post 135978 said:
postal in post 135971 said:

As I said in another topic last week, "when does SimSig stop being a signalling simulation with all that requires in terms of becoming the proxy signaller for the simulation (i.e. knowing the area, knowing the TT, regulating accordingly etc.) and start becoming a computer game with error traps built in to take away the responsibility which normally lies on the signaller's shoulders"?
Important question. But a driver querying a wrong route would definitely be part of a signalling sim (though in my experience they were a little less genteel than the SimSig phone calls!!!) Places where drivers could accept a route other than booked tended to be laid down in the Sectional Appendix (and of course the instruction only applied to trains not booked to call intermediately). Other instances might be a result of Control intervention (in which case the driver's route knowledge would have been checked and there would be a phone call with instructions for the diversion); that might apply to just one train or to a significant part of the service. Or a failure might require a diversion, in which case there would undoubtedly be a 'wrong route' call and the bobby would have to check whether the driver signed the alternative route - and be completely boxed up if they didn't (with, usually, a call to Control to authorise the diversion as well). (Might that be another feature that could be included when the core code team have some spare time?)
Unlikely but possible that the case at issue was a Control intervention. Comes down to where you draw the line between unlikely but possible situations and situations so unlikely that intervention is required. I wish you luck with establishing any criteria for that judgement. Of course it would all be avoided if the signaller did the job properly, anyway!

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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1A53 wrong route not queried by driver 05/01/2021 at 11:06 #135983
bugsy
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[quote=postal;post=135971
The service to Aberdeen could pass Polmont then go forward to Aberdeen via Winchburgh Jn, Dalmeny, Forth Bridge, Ladybank then either Perth or Dundee so there is a valid alternative route (although whether the driver would sign for any of that . . . ).quote]

I can see that this is possible, but would this valid, alternative route actually be taken in real life? Wouldn’t the passengers for the intermediate stations be considered and would they be told that the train was on a diversionary route?

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1A53 wrong route not queried by driver 05/01/2021 at 11:29 #135985
postal
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bugsy in post 135983 said:
postal in post 135971 said:

The service to Aberdeen could pass Polmont then go forward to Aberdeen via Winchburgh Jn, Dalmeny, Forth Bridge, Ladybank then either Perth or Dundee so there is a valid alternative route (although whether the driver would sign for any of that . . . )
I can see that this is possible, but would this valid, alternative route actually be taken in real life? Wouldn’t the passengers for the intermediate stations be considered and would they be told that the train was on a diversionary route?
So unlikely that it is bizarre but the decision could already been taken before the train left Queen Street allowing for due announcement. Getting into the realms of fantasy with things like that but you know how to avoid the situation.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
Last edited: 05/01/2021 at 11:31 by postal
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1A53 wrong route not queried by driver 05/01/2021 at 12:02 #135986
Albert
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I sense an opportunity for a diversionary TT with a closure near Stirling
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1A53 wrong route not queried by driver 05/01/2021 at 12:31 #135987
Steamer
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Mantis 32725 raised to add wrong route code for Stirling bound trains at Greenhill.
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
Last edited: 05/01/2021 at 12:31 by Steamer
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1A53 wrong route not queried by driver 05/01/2021 at 13:49 #135989
Late Turn
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postal in post 135980 said:
As I said in another topic last week, "when does SimSig stop being a signalling simulation with all that requires in terms of becoming the proxy signaller for the simulation (i.e. knowing the area, knowing the TT, regulating accordingly etc.) and start becoming a computer game with error traps built in to take away the responsibility which normally lies on the signaller's shoulders"?

It's necessary to edit a train's timetable to avoid an 'incorrect platform' penalty when altering platforms during disruption. It's routinely stated that the act of editing the timetable is equivalent to advising the platform staff and/or directly altering the passenger information systems, which is sensible. I think it's sensible that the same principle should apply here. The driver will rightly complain of a wrong route, even if it's tenuously possible to reach the next booked stop via a circuitous route, if he hasn't already been advised of the diversion - the only exception being those where it's a published acceptable alternative without question. Admittedly a diversion is more likely to be a Control decision, but the act of editing the timetable in Simsig is the closest equivalent to going through the motions of agreeing the arrangements and advising the drier in advance?

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1A53 wrong route not queried by driver 05/01/2021 at 13:55 #135993
bill_gensheet
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Albert in post 135986 said:
I sense an opportunity for a diversionary TT with a closure near Stirling :D
Sadly the most recent closures would make a very boring SimSig - unless we start simulating buses driving up the M80 instead.

The diversion timetables though are very much the question (as before) on whether to add more wrong route code at all.

With all wrong route coding you would need to rewrite the whole timetable.

Without extra wrong route code you could simply run existing timetable for several known diversion scenarios, although not Larbert - Stirling.

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1A53 wrong route not queried by driver 05/01/2021 at 14:16 #135998
bugsy
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postal in post 135985 said:
bugsy in post 135983 said:
postal in post 135971 said:

The service to Aberdeen could pass Polmont then go forward to Aberdeen via Winchburgh Jn, Dalmeny, Forth Bridge, Ladybank then either Perth or Dundee so there is a valid alternative route (although whether the driver would sign for any of that . . . )
I can see that this is possible, but would this valid, alternative route actually be taken in real life? Wouldn’t the passengers for the intermediate stations be considered and would they be told that the train was on a diversionary route?
So unlikely that it is bizarre but the decision could already been taken before the train left Queen Street allowing for due announcement. Getting into the realms of fantasy with things like that but you know how to avoid the situation.
I do indeed and will hopefully be more careful in future. I can now understand that a freight could happily accept an alternative route.

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1A53 wrong route not queried by driver 05/01/2021 at 14:32 #135999
bugsy
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Whilst thinking about this topic, I decided to do a bit of digging on YouTube and found a train driver's VLOG in which he describes an occasion when he actually took a wrong route, realised it, phoned the signaller to advise him and ask for instructions. He had to reverse his train to an appropriate location where he could be directed onto the correct route. He was driving an EMU and had to undertake what he described as "the walk of shame". Twice!

I wonder if any of the drivers on this forum would admit that they've had to do this

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Last edited: 05/01/2021 at 14:35 by bugsy
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1A53 wrong route not queried by driver 05/01/2021 at 15:59 #136003
jrr
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Don't know about drivers but I was a passenger once when this happened (about 50 years ago!) - misrouted onto a single line. We had to go forward past the first signal back, reverse down onto the 'main' line, then were able to go forward correctly - ended up about 30 minutes late. For timetable reasons it was an easy mistake for the signalman to have made.
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1A53 wrong route not queried by driver 05/01/2021 at 17:07 #136008
clive
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bugsy in post 135999 said:
Whilst thinking about this topic, I decided to do a bit of digging on YouTube and found a train driver's VLOG in which he describes an occasion when he actually took a wrong route, realised it, phoned the signaller to advise him and ask for instructions. He had to reverse his train to an appropriate location where he could be directed onto the correct route. He was driving an EMU and had to undertake what he described as "the walk of shame". Twice!
You might like this tale, told by the culprit:

http://www.districtdave.co.uk/html/confession_time.html

Last edited: 05/01/2021 at 17:15 by clive
Reason: Better URL

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1A53 wrong route not queried by driver 05/01/2021 at 17:49 #136013
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I recall on one occasion a 7 car meridian was routed into bay 5 at Derby and took the route. Cue the train stopping just short of the platform when the driver realised, followed by the reversal of shame back over London Road junction.
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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1A53 wrong route not queried by driver 05/01/2021 at 18:05 #136016
Splodge
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I've had a couple offered to me, but managed to stop before the signal which isn't too much of an issue other than a bit of paperwork.

A driver at my depot did take a wrong route at Edgeley 1 - towards Hazel Grove instead of Alderley Edge. Unfortunately they then tried to be helpful by taking the train all the way to Hazel Grove rather than stopping as soon as they realised which ended up causing more problems than it solved and resulted in a brief to us reminding us to stop ASAP.

We've also had incidents with trains not fitting into platforms - it's rare at Piccadilly thanks to Lime St Controls being fitted to most platforms, but 11 and 12 do not (or they didn't work as intended) - so someone took a 6 car 323 into platform 12. Luckily it was early morning and an empty stock move so the walk of shame wasn't too obvious!

There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway.
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1A53 wrong route not queried by driver 05/01/2021 at 19:59 #136021
bugsy
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clive in post 136008 said:
bugsy in post 135999 said:
Whilst thinking about this topic, I decided to do a bit of digging on YouTube and found a train driver's VLOG in which he describes an occasion when he actually took a wrong route, realised it, phoned the signaller to advise him and ask for instructions. He had to reverse his train to an appropriate location where he could be directed onto the correct route. He was driving an EMU and had to undertake what he described as "the walk of shame". Twice!
You might like this tale, told by the culprit:

http://www.districtdave.co.uk/html/confession_time.html
Quite an amusing tale. I expect that everyone has made mistakes at some time, but most have insignificant consequences.

Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate.
Last edited: 06/01/2021 at 15:15 by bugsy
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1A53 wrong route not queried by driver 06/01/2021 at 11:48 #136030
bill_gensheet
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Was on the 0940 Glasgow - London 390 once.
Several panels at Motherwell SC had gone into some kind of meltdown so train got routed via Bellshill
Should not be a problem, apart from route being set for the next Shotts train and that line was not yet wired.
Hard braking, sitting in mid train I was just onto the Shotts line but the (rear) pan was still on the live around Holytown platform. Reversed out and no more than 20 minutes the worse.
Both routes clear to all greens.

Now generally where a junction is of similar speeds (so no FY aspects) is it not likely that by the time the driver sees the wrong route it will be too late to stop ?
I think an AC hauled sleeper ECS got far enough along the Shotts line at Midcalder to be off wire once

Bill

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1A53 wrong route not queried by driver 06/01/2021 at 12:24 #136031
postal
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bill_gensheet in post 136030 said:
Now generally where a junction is of similar speeds (so no FY aspects) is it not likely that by the time the driver sees the wrong route it will be too late to stop ?

Now that would be an evil addition to the core code! Where the train would be expected to stop before the signal, allow a wrong route call from the signal but where the train would overshoot, stop the train at the next signal after the junction for the wrong route call.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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1A53 wrong route not queried by driver 06/01/2021 at 12:24 #136032
Splodge
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Quote:
Now generally where a junction is of similar speeds (so no FY aspects) is it not likely that by the time the driver sees the wrong route it will be too late to stop ?
Yes - a friend who drives for TPE tells me that Micklefield and Colton junctions on the York ROC panels are high risk for this, Colton in particular as its 125mph for both routes.

On my patch our highest risk is Slade Lane on the Up Slow, as all routes (Up Slow, Up Fast, Up Styal) are 45mph over the junction with no preliminary warning. It's a pretty common one to have a wrong-route offered though the low-ish speed means it's not too difficult to stop at if you throw it all in when you realise!

There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway.
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1A53 wrong route not queried by driver 06/01/2021 at 12:26 #136033
postal
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bill_gensheet in post 136030 said:
I think an AC hauled sleeper ECS got far enough along the Shotts line at Midcalder to be off wire once
If my memory is accurate, as far back as the 1990's the North East Up TPO (Newcastle/Low Fell to Kings Cross/Willesden RMT depending on the date) once got far enough down the Micklefield line at Colton Junction to be off the wires.

Edit: Coincidence that Splodge was posting while I was typing!

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
Last edited: 06/01/2021 at 14:50 by postal
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1A53 wrong route not queried by driver 06/01/2021 at 13:25 #136034
Albert
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York - Church Fenton is going to be wired so TPE's bi-mode trains can depart from York on electric power, meaning one opportunity less to lose power this way.

And if the junction doesn't have any overrun wires it can even mean that you lose your pantograph (post #7).

Although in that case (in Germany) the route was changed on the same day that the electric trains went into service - not a good combination for the signaller and driver, who could've noticed that there was no 80 km/h speed restriction being indicated.

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1A53 wrong route not queried by driver 06/01/2021 at 13:56 #136036
Jan
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postal in post 136031 said:
bill_gensheet in post 136030 said:
Now generally where a junction is of similar speeds (so no FY aspects) is it not likely that by the time the driver sees the wrong route it will be too late to stop ?

Now that would be an evil addition to the core code! Where the train would be expected to stop before the signal, allow a wrong route call from the signal but where the train would overshoot, stop the train at the next signal after the junction for the wrong route call.

There's actually a long-standing feature request for that (#3697).

Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick.
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1A53 wrong route not queried by driver 06/01/2021 at 13:58 #136037
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postal in post 136031 said:
bill_gensheet in post 136030 said:
Now generally where a junction is of similar speeds (so no FY aspects) is it not likely that by the time the driver sees the wrong route it will be too late to stop ?

Now that would be an evil addition to the core code! Where the train would be expected to stop before the signal, allow a wrong route call from the signal but where the train would overshoot, stop the train at the next signal after the junction for the wrong route call.
+1 for this. Great idea. I wish this happened for signals put back in front of drivers as well. I know SimSig doesn't support accidents, but the route would still be locked so it wouldn't be unsafe, while still penalising the signaller for making the error.

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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1A53 wrong route not queried by driver 06/01/2021 at 14:17 #136039
clive
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postal in post 136031 said:
bill_gensheet in post 136030 said:
Now generally where a junction is of similar speeds (so no FY aspects) is it not likely that by the time the driver sees the wrong route it will be too late to stop ?

Now that would be an evil addition to the core code! Where the train would be expected to stop before the signal, allow a wrong route call from the signal but where the train would overshoot, stop the train at the next signal after the junction for the wrong route call.
Already on my list: Mantis 3697.

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