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Quandry at the Quarry

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Quandry at the Quarry 21/04/2021 at 06:38 #138854
Chrisrail
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Morning All
I am currently doing a five day Leeds NW timetable and cannot seem to get my head round this problem, which may end up being a simple solution.
Most of the trains that go up to the quarry at Rhylstone come back with the same consist (Class 66 + 27 HYA) which causes no problem as trains terminating at Rhylstone have to have next working input.
However in the timetable for Week 1 I have
1. A Class 4 - 66 + 2 HYAs the locomotive returns as a class 6 + 27 HYA
2. Class 6 - 66 + 27 returns to Skipton as a Class 0 Light loco which then returns to Rhylstone as another Class 0 which then returns as a Class 66 + 27.
I am either getting error messages saying train A not the same length as next working.
I have tried using the "New Category" button in the Timetable editor but this does not seem to apply.

I know I am using Leeds NW as an example but I am sure this happens on other Sims
Any help would be gratefully received

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Quandry at the Quarry 21/04/2021 at 07:31 #138855
Peter Bennet
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I think the problem might be that trains do not fall off the sim and re-enter. So, although the track is hidden it has to be treated the same as if it were wholly visible and the necessary joins/divides need to be made.

If a train of Cl66 +2 enters and the 66 comes back as a LE then you need to do a divide at the end of the line and leave the wagons behind.
If it comes back as +27 then that must mean the 27 wagons were already there from a previous working.

From memory of a holiday in the area and having driven past the facility I think there were indeed sidings there so wagons could be stored.
Although the line is OTW, if that is what happens in reality then there must be some way of "hiding" the wagons from the OTW controls.

One way to facilitate this is for trains to fall off and re-enter, or to have some sort of control of the sidings.

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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Quandry at the Quarry 21/04/2021 at 08:19 #138856
postal
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Peter Bennet in post 138855 said:
If a train of Cl66 +2 enters and the 66 comes back as a LE then you need to do a divide at the end of the line and leave the wagons behind.
If it comes back as +27 then that must mean the 27 wagons were already there from a previous working.
So for the purposes of a SimSig TT, unless there is a previous train in the TT which has left the 27 wagons it would require the seeding of an unpowered consist of 27 wagons at the quarry at the opening time of the TT (so more than one identical seed if there is more than one seed group in the TT) with a single location of the quarry then a Join action so the incoming loco and unpowered consist can form a happy union.

I haven't got the sim open but wonder if that would affect any One Train Working constraints.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
Last edited: 21/04/2021 at 08:20 by postal
Reason: None given

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Quandry at the Quarry 21/04/2021 at 08:39 #138857
Meld
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Chris/John

Had a quick play and see if this test TT can be refined. I had to talk the seed past red to get up the branch even though the route was set.

Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!!
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Quandry at the Quarry 21/04/2021 at 09:22 #138859
Chrisrail
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Thanks All

I will have a look later.
I was looking at seeding groups but not really having had to use them before I am not fully au fait with them.
Day Off today so might have to re ponder this a bit later
Maybe a Seeding Groups Guide for Dummies is in order

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Quandry at the Quarry 21/04/2021 at 10:03 #138862
JamesN
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The branch is just coded as a dead-end single line in sim, however there is an extensive complex of sidings at the end in reality.

It would be better as an entry/exit point given what goes down isn’t necessarily what comes back up; the only restriction in the sectional appendix being locomotives cannot be left down there, they have to return to Skipton as early as practical either with another train or light, to clear the one train working.

Alas it’s far too long after the sim was developed to really seek to change that; it would break many released user contributed timetables and so forth.

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Quandry at the Quarry 21/04/2021 at 10:31 #138865
Albert
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I would imagine it could be possible to retain the current TT location for trains simply turning back and add another TT location (like Rylstone Sidings or something like that) for trains to fall off the sim. Although it would probably mess up the OTW logic.
AJP in games
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Quandry at the Quarry 21/04/2021 at 10:38 #138867
Peter Bennet
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postal in post 138856 said:
Peter Bennet in post 138855 said:
If a train of Cl66 +2 enters and the 66 comes back as a LE then you need to do a divide at the end of the line and leave the wagons behind.
If it comes back as +27 then that must mean the 27 wagons were already there from a previous working.
So for the purposes of a SimSig TT, unless there is a previous train in the TT which has left the 27 wagons it would require the seeding of an unpowered consist of 27 wagons at the quarry at the opening time of the TT (so more than one identical seed if there is more than one seed group in the TT) with a single location of the quarry then a Join action so the incoming loco and unpowered consist can form a happy union.

I haven't got the sim open but wonder if that would affect any One Train Working constraints.
I guess so, I was just hypothesising on the principle at play.

It only affects OTW, where the trains don't fall-off. Edinburgh, for example, has some OTW where the trains fall-off and re-enter so the question of matching lengths is by-passed.

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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Quandry at the Quarry 21/04/2021 at 11:06 #138870
Meld
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Had another quick play and it is possible to seed empties at Ryleston leaving the OTW green to allow another train up the branch. The down side is that the inbound to Rylestone does need talking past at Skipton.

Test TT re-attached (Tidied up the length mistakes)

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Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!!
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Quandry at the Quarry 21/04/2021 at 11:36 #138872
Chrisrail
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I Think with all the help I might have sorted it......Time will tell
In True SimSig fashion I will take the laptop to the pub and give it a run through.

Many thanks Once again..............................If it doesnt work I maybe BACK

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Quandry at the Quarry 21/04/2021 at 11:45 #138873
Chrisrail
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Albert in post 138865 said:
I would imagine it could be possible to retain the current TT location for trains simply turning back and add another TT location (like Rylstone Sidings or something like that) for trains to fall off the sim. Although it would probably mess up the OTW logic.
In Theory as Rhylstone has three locations in the Sim - Rhylstone / Rhylstone Quarry / Rhylstone Tilcon you could run the train to one of them. However you still need to bring the loco back

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Quandry at the Quarry 21/04/2021 at 15:41 #138882
GeoffM
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We were looking at Rhylstone as part of the update just a week or two ago. There are a number of sidings down there which means what goes up does not necessarily come down. Typically in such circumstances there'd be a gate or some other physical boundary to which the OTW applies, and no man's land beyond where you anything could happen (ie shunting) - but Rhylstone has nothing obvious from satellite views, though there could be a stop board not visible from overhead.

The OTW is solely based on vehicles operating and clearing a sequence of tracks/treadles at the Skipton end (confirmed with interlocking data). Seeding at the "buffer" end should work and not affect the OTW (ie it would start green even with seeding).

SimSig Boss
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Quandry at the Quarry 21/04/2021 at 16:32 #138884
Albert
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But if you seed a train, that train in reality must've triggered the OTW when it went into Rylstone as James said you aren't allowed to drop off locos there.
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Quandry at the Quarry 21/04/2021 at 16:43 #138885
GeoffM
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Albert in post 138884 said:
But if you seed a train, that train in reality must've triggered the OTW when it went into Rylstone as James said you aren't allowed to drop off locos there.
No, because the loco can arrive with wagons, drop off the wagons, then leave on its own. At that point there will be wagons in the sidings and the OTW will be green. That's why there would normally be a gate or some other dividing line to indicate to trains approaching the sidings that the definition of "line clear" [on the OTW section] is at an end, and they can expect wagons, points set against the train, or some other situation beyond the dividing line.

OTW does not count axles in/out.

SimSig Boss
Last edited: 21/04/2021 at 16:43 by GeoffM
Reason: None given

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Quandry at the Quarry 21/04/2021 at 16:47 #138887
jc92
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GeoffM in post 138882 said:
We were looking at Rhylstone as part of the update just a week or two ago. There are a number of sidings down there which means what goes up does not necessarily come down. Typically in such circumstances there'd be a gate or some other physical boundary to which the OTW applies, and no man's land beyond where you anything could happen (ie shunting) - but Rhylstone has nothing obvious from satellite views, though there could be a stop board not visible from overhead.

The OTW is solely based on vehicles operating and clearing a sequence of tracks/treadles at the Skipton end (confirmed with interlocking data). Seeding at the "buffer" end should work and not affect the OTW (ie it would start green even with seeding).
Theres a commencement and end of OTW board at the end of the line but that's it. I dont know if its still the case but the quarry had a dedicated shunter as well historically.

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Quandry at the Quarry 21/04/2021 at 16:52 #138888
Albert
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Geoff, I'm sorry for the confusion, I thought you were talking about seeding a train with loco on it. Seeding just wagons is fine of course in the scenario you described.
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Quandry at the Quarry 21/04/2021 at 16:58 #138892
GeoffM
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jc92 in post 138887 said:
GeoffM in post 138882 said:
We were looking at Rhylstone as part of the update just a week or two ago. There are a number of sidings down there which means what goes up does not necessarily come down. Typically in such circumstances there'd be a gate or some other physical boundary to which the OTW applies, and no man's land beyond where you anything could happen (ie shunting) - but Rhylstone has nothing obvious from satellite views, though there could be a stop board not visible from overhead.

The OTW is solely based on vehicles operating and clearing a sequence of tracks/treadles at the Skipton end (confirmed with interlocking data). Seeding at the "buffer" end should work and not affect the OTW (ie it would start green even with seeding).
Theres a commencement and end of OTW board at the end of the line but that's it. I dont know if its still the case but the quarry had a dedicated shunter as well historically.
Streetview shows a shunting engine. Thanks for confirming the stopboard. We'd looked but couldn't locate it on satellite views.

MELD has confirmed seeding will do what Chris wants; however, the signal L4042 at Skipton isn't showing a proceed aspect as it should do. I will fix that.

SimSig Boss
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Quandry at the Quarry 21/04/2021 at 17:05 #138893
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The stop board for arrivals is here: https://goo.gl/maps/vJvepUaJNRqcPPjY8
A shunt limit board is then here: https://goo.gl/maps/g56Mw2KGd6Xys55j6

https://signalmaps.co.uk
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Quandry at the Quarry 21/04/2021 at 17:35 #138897
GeoffM
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V1.6.1 pushed to updates.
SimSig Boss
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Quandry at the Quarry 22/04/2021 at 08:04 #138915
Chrisrail
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Thanks for all that it saves me contacting the Network Rail Area Freight Manager for confirmation.
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Quandry at the Quarry 22/04/2021 at 17:34 #138923
postal
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Chrisrail in post 138859 said:
Maybe a Seeding Groups Guide for Dummies is in order
Does this page of the Wiki make any sense or does it just complicate matters?

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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Quandry at the Quarry 23/04/2021 at 08:36 #138936
Chrisrail
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postal in post 138923 said:
Chrisrail in post 138859 said:
Maybe a Seeding Groups Guide for Dummies is in order
Does this page of the Wiki make any sense or does it just complicate matters?
Hi Postal It does a bit of both. Just need to sit down properly and mess with it. Cheers

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Quandry at the Quarry 24/04/2021 at 11:48 #139006
Chrisrail
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Thought Everything was going well, However on a Thursday and Friday I have two light locos going up to the Quarry to connect to Wagons. (The locos went up to the Quarry the night(s) before and obviously come down to Skipton to stable. A single train (loco) going up and connecting works fine but when I have 2 the wrong set of wagons are seeding at Rhylstone and the others will not seed because the track is occupied (WAG2 & WAG6).

As mentioned before How big a job is it making Rhystone an entry / exit point? I appriciate that it would require a lot of legwork with previous timetables

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Quandry at the Quarry 24/04/2021 at 12:13 #139007
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Would the usual trick for seeding two trains at one seeding point of just seeding a combined train with a divide activity not work?
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Quandry at the Quarry 24/04/2021 at 13:37 #139009
postal
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Tempest Malice in post 139007 said:
Would the usual trick for seeding two trains at one seeding point of just seeding a combined train with a divide activity not work?
You might need a couple of tries while working out whether it is DF or DR to make sure that the second set out is at the buffer end but it doesn't take long to sort out.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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