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TRTS when "still having difficulties"

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TRTS when "still having difficulties" 29/04/2021 at 00:42 #139192
Chromatix
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I've just had an oddity where 5Q31 reported a very slight delay (to 16:10 from 16:07) at the beginning of its hour-long stop at York P9, so I left it in ARS trusting TRTS to take care of it. However, when 16:10 rolled around, the TRTS went off and ARS duly set up the route - only to get a phone call from 5Q31 saying they were still having difficulties and did I want to replace the signal? Result is that 1V96 gets delayed an extra couple of minutes for no good reason, due to the timeout on the conflicting route.

Obviously if the difficulties are continuing, the train should not be calling TRTS.

This might be a core bug, so maybe move the thread if appropriate.

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TRTS when "still having difficulties" 29/04/2021 at 01:06 #139193
GeoffM
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Why would it be a bug? TRTS is often pressed before the train is ready, only to discover there is an issue on departure. Stories of nobody realising there wasn't a driver come to mind. The fact you got a "oops, need a bit longer" ties it up nicely.

Lesson of the day: if a train reports difficulties, take it out of ARS!

SimSig Boss
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TRTS when "still having difficulties" 29/04/2021 at 01:14 #139194
Chromatix
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The TRTS and the phone call actually occurred simultaneously, I just didn't get to pick it up until the route had already set up. And I'm reasonably sure this did not happen in older versions.
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TRTS when "still having difficulties" 29/04/2021 at 06:30 #139195
Ron_J
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I was working a box once where the TRTS was given for a train so I cleared the road for it, however departure time came and went and it didn’t move. When I eventually got hold of the station supervisor (who it’s fair to say wasn’t the most on the ball) he told me that there wasn’t a driver on the train because he’d booked off sick. I asked him why he’d given me Train Ready to Start and he said - “Well it is ready to start, the passengers and the guard are all on it and it’s ready to go just as soon as we find a driver.”. He didn’t see the issue!

But yes, getting the TRTS and then some problem being experienced on the train necessitating the road to be put back is not unusual in real life.

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TRTS when "still having difficulties" 29/04/2021 at 09:51 #139197
Hap
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Ron_J in post 139195 said:
I was working a box once where the TRTS was given for a train so I cleared the road for it, however departure time came and went and it didn’t move. When I eventually got hold of the station supervisor (who it’s fair to say wasn’t the most on the ball) he told me that there wasn’t a driver on the train because he’d booked off sick. I asked him why he’d given me Train Ready to Start and he said - “Well it is ready to start, the passengers and the guard are all on it and it’s ready to go just as soon as we find a driver.”. He didn’t see the issue!

But yes, getting the TRTS and then some problem being experienced on the train necessitating the road to be put back is not unusual in real life.
Sounds like a lovely station next to a lovely River with a couple of bridges towards the East side of the country. Happened so many times at this location to me. (I daren't name the location)

HAP
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TRTS when "still having difficulties" 29/04/2021 at 10:15 #139198
DonRiver
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Ron_J in post 139195 said:
"Well it is ready to start, the passengers and the guard are all on it and it’s ready to go just as soon as we find a driver."
This has made my day - thank you.

So, make problem trains non-ARS or collar the departure signal until the phone call says all is OK, then? Feature not a bug, nice

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TRTS when "still having difficulties" 29/04/2021 at 11:39 #139202
headshot119
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It's not good practice to get into use of reminder appliances to prevent ARS setting routes. The theory behind that is it gets you into a mindset of taking them off on a regular basis thinking they're to prevent ARS setting a route, then you've routed a train somewhere you shouldn't.
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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TRTS when "still having difficulties" 29/04/2021 at 15:44 #139209
GeoffM
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headshot119 in post 139202 said:
It's not good practice to get into use of reminder appliances to prevent ARS setting routes. The theory behind that is it gets you into a mindset of taking them off on a regular basis thinking they're to prevent ARS setting a route, then you've routed a train somewhere you shouldn't.
A long time ago there was talk of a regulation for just this purpose. Maybe it died a death because the action would have been almost the same as a reminder device.

SimSig Boss
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TRTS when "still having difficulties" 29/04/2021 at 17:33 #139212
Chromatix
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Hey, I appreciate that such things can occur IRL. But the internal logic of the sim is that a decision about the delay is made up-front, and communicated to the player, as soon as the train arrives, which is also highly unrealistic. Based on the internal logic of the sim being visible, this is a bug.

If the sim later grows some more organic system with actual information hiding, then we can accept the logic of matching real-world occurrences.

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TRTS when "still having difficulties" 29/04/2021 at 18:22 #139213
Late Turn
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Been there, done that too. More than once I've gone out to a train, or changed ends at an intermediate station, only to find a fault when setting up the cab. Well aware that the dispatcher had seen me (and the guard) and had last been seen striding purposefully towards the TRTS plunger, the best course of action is to immediately phone the signalman and hope to catch him before he (or the ARS) pulls off - so it's quite conceivable that you might get TRTS and a phone call virtually at the same time.

It might also be that the driver's been dealing with a fault, has investigated and believes that it's cleared, only to find - once the doors have closed and brake release should be available - that it's actually still present!

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TRTS when "still having difficulties" 29/04/2021 at 18:38 #139214
Hap
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Chromatix in post 139212 said:
Hey, I appreciate that such things can occur IRL. But the internal logic of the sim is that a decision about the delay is made up-front, and communicated to the player, as soon as the train arrives, which is also highly unrealistic. Based on the internal logic of the sim being visible, this is a bug.

If the sim later grows some more organic system with actual information hiding, then we can accept the logic of matching real-world occurrences.
I wouldn't say that it is "highly unrealistic" for a train to be delayed on arrival. Faults occur on route the delay would happen at the next available safe location. out stations could be that the driver has overcome the fault and stations where there is a fitter, they attend. 9 times out of ten, I'll report a fault on the train and we get it to the next station (unless the wheels have fallen off or something a bit more serious). The limitation would be that there's no way to foresee a fault occurring on route and then you can anticipate a delay at the next stop. As said, drop the train out of ARS as IRL.

HAP
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TRTS when "still having difficulties" 29/04/2021 at 19:52 #139216
Jan
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Yes, but not the way it's currently happening in Simsig, where e.g. a train stabling overnight phones in at something like 1 or 2 o'clock in the morning that its scheduled 06:35 departure will be delayed by approximately 10 minutes due to brake problems.
Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick.
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TRTS when "still having difficulties" 29/04/2021 at 20:09 #139218
Stephen Fulcher
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I think that’s a separate issue to the one initially reported in this thread.

As for that issue I have seen many examples where TRTS have been given to a train that cannot depart, almost always causing a delay.

One that springs to mind is a location that will remain nameless where the TRTS plunger was located about fifty yards from where the train stopped in normal circumstances and the platform staff and guards always pressed it on the way past on their way to the train, whether they knew it to be ready or not. I used to travel on one train from this platform home after nights and one morning had a call from the Signaller asking if I was on my usual train, when I said yes he asked me to find out why it hadn’t moved as he’d had the road off for ten minutes and had a queue of trains stopped because it hasn’t departed. Turns out the station staff had pressed TRTS, the guard was off sick and hadn’t been replaced, and the Driver was still checking the unit over as it hadn’t been prepped.

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TRTS when "still having difficulties" 29/04/2021 at 20:33 #139219
DonRiver
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Stephen, the signaller called you directly? Had your mobile number? That's fantastic :D

On the general topic of TRTS and its simulated features - might it be possible to add an option to remove the headcode from the message? Just show the signal number and location. The reason is (realism and) to make AI-triggered TRTS look identical to host-triggered TRTS from the F11 screen, and give sadistic multiplayer hosts more opportunity to spread confusion and delay

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TRTS when "still having difficulties" 29/04/2021 at 20:53 #139220
Stephen Fulcher
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I do work for Network Rail so that’s how they had my number
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TRTS when "still having difficulties" 01/05/2021 at 15:39 #139242
Chromatix
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Hap in post 139214 said:
Chromatix in post 139212 said:
Hey, I appreciate that such things can occur IRL. But the internal logic of the sim is that a decision about the delay is made up-front, and communicated to the player, as soon as the train arrives, which is also highly unrealistic. Based on the internal logic of the sim being visible, this is a bug.

If the sim later grows some more organic system with actual information hiding, then we can accept the logic of matching real-world occurrences.
I wouldn't say that it is "highly unrealistic" for a train to be delayed on arrival. Faults occur on route the delay would happen at the next available safe location. out stations could be that the driver has overcome the fault and stations where there is a fitter, they attend. 9 times out of ten, I'll report a fault on the train and we get it to the next station (unless the wheels have fallen off or something a bit more serious). The limitation would be that there's no way to foresee a fault occurring on route and then you can anticipate a delay at the next stop. As said, drop the train out of ARS as IRL.
There are two big problems with this analysis:

1: Even if I had dropped the train out of ARS, the TRTS would probably have prompted me to turn it back on before picking up the phone.

2: This train both arrived as and departed as a Class 5 (ECS) service - and the stated delay reason was "giving assistance to a passenger"!

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TRTS when "still having difficulties" 01/05/2021 at 16:18 #139243
DonRiver
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Simsig has phone messages about people herding geese at 3am, or putting the wrong food trolley on an underground train, though…

In Simsigland, a driver who reports a delay will always phone to report they're ready to go… so I'd use that as the trigger to turn ARS back on and set the route, rather than the TRTS light.

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TRTS when "still having difficulties" 01/05/2021 at 16:47 #139244
jc92
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The messages are intentionally tongue in cheek, such as wrong kind of food trolley on an MGR, or a herd of geese at Westbury Barrow crossing.

My favourite is a train reporting a delay an hour before its booked time because the driver needs the toilet. Maybe the shrimp vindaloo wasn't a great choice the night before.

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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TRTS when "still having difficulties" 01/05/2021 at 18:38 #139247
DonRiver
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Having worked as a bus driver, I can tell you - that kind of incident is not necessarily tongue-in-cheek or inaccurate…
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