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Stilton Fen Crossover

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Stilton Fen Crossover 20/11/2021 at 00:57 #142396
BrownBerry
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What is the use of the Stilton Fen G.F. (I assume it's an emergency crossover)?
I can't seem to signal a train from the down line onto the up line. Unlike the Stoke Jn G.F., there are no handsignals which seems odd.

Last edited: 20/11/2021 at 01:01 by BrownBerry
Reason: None given

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Stilton Fen Crossover 20/11/2021 at 15:13 #142401
ajax103
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Stilton Fen is a set of emergency crossovers that are used during emergency or during engineering works indeed I have travelled on trains that have used the crossovers least a minimum of 3 times that I'm aware of between 2006 and 2016 when I commuted daily over that route.
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Stilton Fen Crossover 20/11/2021 at 16:20 #142402
clive
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Yes, it's an emergency crossover and there are no signalled routes. I don't recall why I didn't add handsignals.
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Stilton Fen Crossover 20/11/2021 at 18:22 #142407
BrownBerry
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So how do use it? Attempting to set the points and send train past signal at danger just causes berth issues.
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Stilton Fen Crossover 20/11/2021 at 19:11 #142408
Peter Bennet
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BrownBerry in post 142407 said:
So how do use it? Attempting to set the points and send train past signal at danger just causes berth issues.

What do you mean by "berth issues"? If you mean the TD does not step then that's normal, you have to sort it out yourself.

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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Stilton Fen Crossover 20/11/2021 at 20:49 #142409
bill_gensheet
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When running a sim with single line working I usually lock the points at both ends of the SLW and put the entering TD into the berth that is the first one back on normal running.
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Stilton Fen Crossover 20/11/2021 at 21:46 #142412
BrownBerry
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Peter Bennet in post 142408 said:
What do you mean by "berth issues"?
Yeah, the TD's don't step, I just find it weird that you then have to key points (without the support of the interlocking) and I just thought I was doing it wrong.

bill_gensheet in post 142409 said:
When running a sim with single line working I usually lock the points at both ends of the SLW and put the entering TD into the berth that is the first one back on normal running.
Ok, thanks a lot.

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Stilton Fen Crossover 20/11/2021 at 23:34 #142414
TUT
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Well that's very much a key point about ground frames. The points are worked on the ground . It's cheap. Train movements are controlled by hand signals or verbal instructions (it's nice when simsig simulates this and sometimes a virtual signal will pop up to help you the player, but in real life the signaller in the power box doesn't have any indications and the handsignaller on the ground can have the points set wrong and nothing will stop them authorising the move apart from the fact that they've got one job in this situation which they will have been trained to carry out).

Having said that, some ground frames do operate signals and some of them even operate subsidiary aspects associated with main signals worked from the actual signal box. That's not quite as common though.

There is interlocking though in as much as when the ground frame is released the protecting signals will be held at danger. There can also be a certain amount of interlocking between the ground frame levers, for example if there is a release lever, all other levers will be locked by that lever. The interlocking can be extremely simple though.

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Stilton Fen Crossover 21/11/2021 at 00:00 #142415
Hap
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BrownBerry in post 142412 said:
Peter Bennet in post 142408 said:
What do you mean by "berth issues"?
Yeah, the TD's don't step, I just find it weird that you then have to key points (without the support of the interlocking) and I just thought I was doing it wrong.
The TD's won't step onto facing road move that's not signalled. That's normal. Normally the signaller would/could interpose a berth half way along the SLW or at the Exit point of SLW as well as the first berth of the resumption of normal working. If the line that was being used for a facing road move is Bi-di then you would normally expect the berth to step under normal signalling of the bi-di line. Keying/locking points on a non signalled movement is also normal.

If you were to put the train back over at another non signalled Emergency X/o then you would have to interpose the train at the first berth on the correct running line, if you were to cross your train at a X/O that has a PLS or indeed a main aspect then you could interpose at that last berth of the SLW and it would normally step over. May not be the case in all scenarios, you would be interposing that first berth on the normal running line after crossing over.

HAP
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Stilton Fen Crossover 21/11/2021 at 12:09 #142420
bill_gensheet
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Background reading for those like me who do not need to know this anyway:

https://www.jonroma.net/media/rail/opdocs/world/uk/GERT8000-P1%20Iss%206.pdf

Interested to see that for say SLW Dunbar - Innerwick you can use the Oxwellmains signalling to divide the 'wrong line' section.

In this case I suppose the panel signaller is performing the role of the intermediate handsignaller ?

Bill

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Stilton Fen Crossover 21/11/2021 at 13:02 #142421
Hap
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bill_gensheet in post 142420 said:
Background reading for those like me who do not need to know this anyway:

https://www.jonroma.net/media/rail/opdocs/world/uk/GERT8000-P1%20Iss%206.pdf

Interested to see that for say SLW Dunbar - Innerwick you can use the Oxwellmains signalling to divide the 'wrong line' section.

In this case I suppose the panel signaller is performing the role of the intermediate handsignaller ?

Bill
Just a Proceed at caution, this issue is 6 years outdated. Unsure as to what may have changed (Not a module I need assessed on). Current issue is 7, dated Sep 2021, live from 4 Dec 2021.

HAP
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Stilton Fen Crossover 21/11/2021 at 16:26 #142422
TUT
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bill_gensheet in post 142420 said:
Interested to see that for say SLW Dunbar - Innerwick you can use the Oxwellmains signalling to divide the 'wrong line' section.

In this case I suppose the panel signaller is performing the role of the intermediate handsignaller ?

Bill
What makes you think so?

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Stilton Fen Crossover 21/11/2021 at 16:56 #142423
bill_gensheet
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As I read it (the 6th edition 2015, the one freely available to the web public) you can divide an SLW with an intermediate 'signal' making two 'sections' with a a handsignalperson.
That would allow one train Dunbar - Oxwellmains and another Oxwellmains - Innerwick.
Clauses 3.6.a, 6.2.a

As Oxwellmains has a PL (ED811 or 812) you would use it, not a handsignal lamp/flag.
Clause 3.5.5, 9.4.1,

However ED811 or 812 is operated by the panel, not a local GF, so why would there be anyone there ?
Clause 3.5.5

What am I misinterpreting ? Would there still need to be a handsignalperson at Oxwellmains to repeat the PL aspect, which 3.5.5 says has to be worked normally anyway, with a Y or R ?
Clause 3.5.3
Clause 3.6.a ?

Bill

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Stilton Fen Crossover 21/11/2021 at 19:32 #142424
TUT
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bill_gensheet in post 142423 said:
As I read it (the 6th edition 2015, the one freely available to the web public) you can divide an SLW with an intermediate 'signal' making two 'sections' with a a handsignalperson.
That would allow one train Dunbar - Oxwellmains and another Oxwellmains - Innerwick.
Clauses 3.6.a, 6.2.a

As Oxwellmains has a PL (ED811 or 812) you would use it, not a handsignal lamp/flag.
Clause 3.5.5, 9.4.1,

However ED811 or 812 is operated by the panel, not a local GF, so why would there be anyone there ?
Clause 3.5.5

What am I misinterpreting ? Would there still need to be a handsignalperson at Oxwellmains to repeat the PL aspect, which 3.5.5 says has to be worked normally anyway, with a Y or R ?
Clause 3.5.3
Clause 3.6.a ?

Bill
Hi Bill,

Well ED811 will not clear towards Dunbar on the Down Line, you could only pull it off to cross back onto the Up Line (in which case you would still need a handsignaller as it is not a main aspect signal), but that's not dividing the single line between Innerwick and Dunbar, that's putting in single line working between Innerwick and Oxwellmains. ED812 would clear towards ED806, but then you won't get ED806 off towards Innerwick.

You could indeed divide the single line for wrong-direction movements per Reg 3.6:

Quote:
You may divide the single line into two sections for wrong-direction movements as long as:
• this arrangement is authorised in the Signal Box Special Instructions
• this arrangement is authorised by the Network Rail area operations manager
• an intermediate handsignaller is appointed as shown in the Signal Box Special Instructions.
Now if we assume Edinburgh's SBSIs permit the single line to be divided at Oxwellmains then certainly we can divide it at Oxwellmains. However, I could have misunderstood something (I've only ever worked a single line, so I've no experience of doing single-line working for real), but I do not believe the requirement to appoint an intermediate handsignaller is optional when dividing the single line.

I could well be wrong, but I had always understood the references to controlling moves in the wrong-direction with shunting & position-light signals to refer to, for example, crossing over onto the single line and clearing ED812 towards ED806 if you had SLW in place on the Down. I always thought all three bullet-points for dividing the single line were compulsory and that just because you had to work the position-lights didn't mean you could divide the line at them, at least not without a handsignaller.

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