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1985 Timetable

You are here: Home > Forum > Simulations > Timetables > Wolverhampton > 1985 Timetable

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1985 Timetable 02/01/2022 at 13:28 #143239
lukebriner
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Hi everyone,

I am planning to build a 1985 timetable for Wolverhampton and am looking at options for seeding and stabling light locos for locomotive changes. I have some questions:

1) It looks like the coal yard and yard are not entry locations so presumably to use them, I would need to seed the trains at the signal that protects their exit? I will try this but if this is not right, does somebody know?
2) Looking at the seed points, I can see CL1/2/24/25R and also LC1-5, is there a way to find out where these are without asking on the forum?
3) The siding lengths for US1-3 and the yards are not listed on the sim manual. Does anyone know what these are?
4) If seeding multiple workings in the same siding, how do I specify the order they are seeded so that the earliest can exit first? (Or does this just happen automagically?)

If anyone has any knowledge of WV in the 1980s that I won't find out from the working TT, please let me know, it might make the timetable easier/more realistic. Also, if anyone knows of other publications I will need/should look for that might contain info I won't have, please let me know as well. I saw that Carlise referred to a "station workings" but I don't know whether WV would have one since I can't imagine there were lots of station workings in such a busy through station.

Thanks

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1985 Timetable 02/01/2022 at 14:25 #143242
postal
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lukebriner in post 143239 said:
4) If seeding multiple workings in the same siding, how do I specify the order they are seeded so that the earliest can exit first? (Or does this just happen automagically?)
You can only seed one train in a location so you have to create a Train Type and Timetable which contains the full list of trains/locos that will enter from that point and then use DF or DR actions to split the combo train into its constituent parts.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
Last edited: 02/01/2022 at 17:06 by postal
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1985 Timetable 02/01/2022 at 17:30 #143248
Steamer
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lukebriner in post 143239 said:

1) It looks like the coal yard and yard are not entry locations so presumably to use them, I would need to seed the trains at the signal that protects their exit? I will try this but if this is not right, does somebody know?
Assuming the loco would be in the siding at midnight (or whatever time your TT starts at), then yes, that's correct.

Quote:
2) Looking at the seed points, I can see CL1/2/24/25R and also LC1-5, is there a way to find out where these are without asking on the forum?
I'd try seeding trains there and seeing where they turn up. I can't think off the top of my head where they might be, it's possible they're at external signals, or 'signals' associated with ground frames etc., so they're probably unsuitable for use.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
Last edited: 02/01/2022 at 17:30 by Steamer
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1985 Timetable 02/01/2022 at 17:49 #143249
58050
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lukebriner in post 143239 said:
Hi everyone,

I am planning to build a 1985 timetable for Wolverhampton and am looking at options for seeding and stabling light locos for locomotive changes. I have some questions:

1) It looks like the coal yard and yard are not entry locations so presumably to use them, I would need to seed the trains at the signal that protects their exit? I will try this but if this is not right, does somebody know?
2) Looking at the seed points, I can see CL1/2/24/25R and also LC1-5, is there a way to find out where these are without asking on the forum?
3) The siding lengths for US1-3 and the yards are not listed on the sim manual. Does anyone know what these are?
4) If seeding multiple workings in the same siding, how do I specify the order they are seeded so that the earliest can exit first? (Or does this just happen automagically?)

If anyone has any knowledge of WV in the 1980s that I won't find out from the working TT, please let me know, it might make the timetable easier/more realistic. Also, if anyone knows of other publications I will need/should look for that might contain info I won't have, please let me know as well. I saw that Carlise referred to a "station workings" but I don't know whether WV would have one since I can't imagine there were lots of station workings in such a busy through station.

Thanks
I hope you've got a 1985 WCL(South) & West Midlands Trip Notice for this TT, cos if you don't then alot of trains won't be in your TT. Services that appear in trrip notice don't appear in WTTs. Furthermore The West Midlands area produced ECS Pamphlets which gave details of all ECS workings as they don't appear in the WETTs. In my collection I've just got 2 of those dated 1988 & 1990 & they cover a 12 montyh period & cover the area between Oxley & Tyseley. Platforming at Wolverhampton won't be done by station working books as they were done locally. I'm currently writing a summer 1990 Wolverhampton TT to chain to my Birmingham New Street summer 1990 TT, but I've got all the documentation necessary to write it & some loco diagrams too.

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1985 Timetable 02/01/2022 at 19:35 #143252
JamesN
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58050 in post 143249 said:
lukebriner in post 143239 said:
Hi everyone,

I am planning to build a 1985 timetable for Wolverhampton and am looking at options for seeding and stabling light locos for locomotive changes. I have some questions:

1) It looks like the coal yard and yard are not entry locations so presumably to use them, I would need to seed the trains at the signal that protects their exit? I will try this but if this is not right, does somebody know?
2) Looking at the seed points, I can see CL1/2/24/25R and also LC1-5, is there a way to find out where these are without asking on the forum?
3) The siding lengths for US1-3 and the yards are not listed on the sim manual. Does anyone know what these are?
4) If seeding multiple workings in the same siding, how do I specify the order they are seeded so that the earliest can exit first? (Or does this just happen automagically?)

If anyone has any knowledge of WV in the 1980s that I won't find out from the working TT, please let me know, it might make the timetable easier/more realistic. Also, if anyone knows of other publications I will need/should look for that might contain info I won't have, please let me know as well. I saw that Carlise referred to a "station workings" but I don't know whether WV would have one since I can't imagine there were lots of station workings in such a busy through station.

Thanks
I hope you've got a 1985 WCL(South) & West Midlands Trip Notice for this TT, cos if you don't then alot of trains won't be in your TT. Services that appear in trrip notice don't appear in WTTs. Furthermore The West Midlands area produced ECS Pamphlets which gave details of all ECS workings as they don't appear in the WETTs. In my collection I've just got 2 of those dated 1988 & 1990 & they cover a 12 montyh period & cover the area between Oxley & Tyseley. Platforming at Wolverhampton won't be done by station working books as they were done locally. I'm currently writing a summer 1990 Wolverhampton TT to chain to my Birmingham New Street summer 1990 TT, but I've got all the documentation necessary to write it & some loco diagrams too.
But we don't want to discourage new timetablers from giving it a go now do we...

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1985 Timetable 03/01/2022 at 15:45 #143274
lukebriner
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Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I will give it a go once the WTT arrives. Will attempt to track down some of the other docs recommended.

Luke

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1985 Timetable 13/01/2022 at 17:12 #143519
bill_gensheet
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lukebriner in post 143239 said:
Hi everyone,

I am planning to build a 1985 timetable for Wolverhampton and am looking at options for seeding and stabling light locos for locomotive changes. I have some questions:

2) Looking at the seed points, I can see CL1/2/24/25R and also LC1-5, is there a way to find out where these are without asking on the forum?
LC1-5 are Littleton Colliery shunt aspects.
Seeding there might as well be entries.

CL1/2/24/25R are Codsall signals in the fringe.
CL24 or CL25R may be of use, but CL25R will give you an undescribed train at OY08
so CL24 and a large seeding offset would be better

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1985 Timetable 15/01/2022 at 16:51 #143559
lukebriner
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The joy I have now is trying to tie up ECS, light locos and workings! Helpfully, some entries in the WTT say something like "After working the XYZ from Birmingham" but most don't say anything and I seem to be a few units short.

Also doesn't help that they split sunday from the weekdays so confusingly, some traffic carries over from weekdays into sundays and vice versa.

I was wondering about moving the trains that make sense into the SimSig timetable and then reducing what I am working with down to just the minimum but I would rather plan all of the timetable platforms etc. before putting it into SimSig (from Excel), otherwise I might have to go and edit everything later on if I need to make changes.

Oh the joys :-)

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1985 Timetable 15/01/2022 at 17:53 #143562
58050
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lukebriner in post 143559 said:
The joy I have now is trying to tie up ECS, light locos and workings! Helpfully, some entries in the WTT say something like "After working the XYZ from Birmingham" but most don't say anything and I seem to be a few units short.

Also doesn't help that they split sunday from the weekdays so confusingly, some traffic carries over from weekdays into sundays and vice versa.

I was wondering about moving the trains that make sense into the SimSig timetable and then reducing what I am working with down to just the minimum but I would rather plan all of the timetable platforms etc. before putting it into SimSig (from Excel), otherwise I might have to go and edit everything later on if I need to make changes.

Oh the joys :-)

Regarding ECS working in the West Midlands you really need the official BR West Midlands ECS Pamphlet which is a book covering the entire West Midlands area, but only shows Cl.5 trains in it that come from various locations such as Tyseley T&RSMD & Oxley CS & gives timings similar to those in WTTs. When I wrote the Birmingham New Street sumner 1990 TT I used the the Saturdays Only edition of the West Mids ECS Pamphlet to get the timings req'd for a whole host of services. I also have a weekday 1988 edition of this document to assist in timetabling other trains that the Saturdays Only Pamphlet didn't show. Some Cl.5 trains were actually shown in the WTT, but the majority weren't hence the reason for the ECS Pamphlet. It also shows you certain ECS services that came off Soho DED bound for Stafford/Wolverhampton & Walsall & not all of them ran via the Stour lines. Some were shown going via Soho & Perry Barr Jns onto the Grand Jn lines & went via Bescot. There are so many routes that these kind of trains are booked to run that just having to guess them would no doubt reduce the accuracy of the TT especially if you are like me & accuracy is essential in producing a quality timetable. Also working at Bescot for 5 years during my railway career allows me to contact friends I know who worked in the area during 1960s/1970s/1980s/1990 & 2000+. So if I'm really struggling to find info about something specific I ask them.

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1985 Timetable 15/01/2022 at 17:54 #143563
bill_gensheet
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lukebriner in post 143559 said:
The joy I have now is trying to tie up ECS, light locos and workings!
Most of the fun I find !

I usually set up mini timetables based on service groups or train types. Helps me see the wood for the trees.

So you might separate out for Class 310 EMU's, the Euston - Oxley / Shrewsburys, the XC / WCML and Shrewsbury / Cambrian locals. This will also make it easier to enter as you will do almost all of these by using the duplication function - ie all the EMU locals is two trains entered longhand and 30 odd duplications (half hourly I guess ?) then fix the stock balances and any small timing tweaks.

Same or more so with freight, (eg MGR's ...) as that helps seeing balancing and setting up rules and decisions on much smaller timetables. Trips I have tended to do singly (eg T37.wtt for trip#37).

Then a set of merges at the end, maybe into 'passenger' 'freight 'trip' for testing before the final merge and test/fix cycle.

The disadvantage is with platforming, but perhaps for Wolverhampton the choice is small enough not to worry and sort the clashes later as it is a simple enough edit.
You will see them easily in the analysis output - no need to test run to find them.

Last edited: 15/01/2022 at 17:56 by bill_gensheet
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1985 Timetable 15/01/2022 at 18:22 #143566
lukebriner
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Thanks,
Most seem to be OK I think, I thought I was going mad with the Shrewsbury DMUs but eventually reaslised I had missed one incoming service from the WTT getting confused with the multiple columns for the same working for different dates etc. The only thing I have left for DMUs is a weird one.

2G66 comes in from Shrewsbury and has 3 columns, one is SX and terminates at WV, the other two are SO, one is after Oct (which I am not covering) the other is before Oct and continues to BHM. However, there doesn't seem to be any further workings from WV because there is only a single ECS SO from BHM to Shrewsbury. Since it is a 1-car DMU, it is easy to see that it isn't used elsewhere so I can just chuck it in platform 6. Just seems weird.

With the locos, I think I will just add what I have and work them out as I go along with a combination of the HS and MS as stabling points.

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1985 Timetable 15/01/2022 at 20:30 #143569
jc92
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lukebriner in post 143566 said:

2G66 comes in from Shrewsbury and has 3 columns, one is SX and terminates at WV, the other two are SO, one is after Oct (which I am not covering) the other is before Oct and continues to BHM. However, there doesn't seem to be any further workings from WV because there is only a single ECS SO from BHM to Shrewsbury. Since it is a 1-car DMU, it is easy to see that it isn't used elsewhere so I can just chuck it in platform 6. Just seems weird.
You'll need to pick a day (or days) and a date for your timetable so everything matches. In the above example, if your timetable is for any weekday, and is set between May and October, the DMU will run to New Street. if the timetable is October to May 86, it will terminate at Wolverhampton. the SO working is irrelevant. You may find a corresponding working that starts at Wolverhampton October onwards for instance, which would balance the train. its possible this train stables overnight and works a train originating at Wolverhampton in the morning as well?

I doubt the unit is a 1 Car DMU running through Shrewsbury. If it says D1 in the timing column, this refers to the DMUs power to weight ratio, which will be confirmed in the relevant sectional appendix.

What I would suggest is you create a simplifier of sorts, which shows all the trains in chronological order, with their main details such as headcode, loco, stock, platform/siding, next working details etc, and then use that to organise the chaos. I've attached a screenshot of the one I've used for Euston 1980. where something is incomplete or missing, its Highlighted red and/or Marked XXXXX. once everything is complete, I know I've sorted everything.


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"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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1985 Timetable 15/01/2022 at 21:04 #143570
bill_gensheet
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jc92 in post 143569 said:


You'll need to pick a day (or days) and a date for your timetable so everything matches. In the above example, if your timetable is for any weekday, and is set between May and October, the DMU will run to New Street. if the timetable is October to May 86, it will terminate at Wolverhampton. the SO working is irrelevant. You may find a corresponding working that starts at Wolverhampton October onwards for instance, which would balance the train. its possible this train stables overnight and works a train originating at Wolverhampton in the morning as well?


At a guess, a summer SAT only DMU from Shrewsbury into Birmingham is probably to help balance (or form) a 9 car DMU for Pwllheli.

If the source is too messy I have sometimes gone to the lengths of photocopying / scanning the WTT / GBTT and cutting up to make a simpler source - ie SAT or TUE/WED/THU/FRI. Same can be done by spreadsheet of course but is more typing. I usually avoid MON if running from midnight as you have all the SUN trains running through.

Trying to do a all-in-one 6 or 7 day choice for Wolverhampton feels a bit optimistic to me

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1985 Timetable 15/01/2022 at 21:17 #143571
lukebriner
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I won't bother with a Sunday but will probably do a Monday, Wednesday and Saturday eventually which will give some decent variation.

I am using Excel so it is pretty easy to filter by train type, days etc. which gives me the views of each. I am then putting them all into a single SimSig timetable as the basic then I will copy it and remove e.g. everything that is not Monday to create the Monday timetable and then if there are any issues, update the master one and do it again. This way, if there are any global changes later on, I won't need to repeat every change in each timetable.

Thanks for the hint with strengthening another DMU. I notice that some trains show as U, which I think means they get strengthened.

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1985 Timetable 15/01/2022 at 22:09 #143572
jc92
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00U00 is normally stops to pick up only. In other words the train is advertised as a departure at wolverhampton, but isn't advertised as stopping there at previous stations. 00D00 is the reverse, stops to set down only.
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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1985 Timetable 15/01/2022 at 22:15 #143573
Steamer
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lukebriner in post 143571 said:

I am using Excel so it is pretty easy to filter by train type, days etc. which gives me the views of each. I am then putting them all into a single SimSig timetable as the basic then I will copy it and remove e.g. everything that is not Monday to create the Monday timetable and then if there are any issues, update the master one and do it again. This way, if there are any global changes later on, I won't need to repeat every change in each timetable.
You can use the Rules and Decisions features to have multiple 'days' within the same TT; the day being selected at the start of the simulation.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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1985 Timetable 16/01/2022 at 14:20 #143583
bill_gensheet
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'DOTW' ( = day of the week) is fine for TUE - FRI, and at a stretch MON, mainly dealing with freight variations.

I would be wary of putting a SAT in one .wtt file if the summer SAT is reasonably different - which is the point of having different days.

With reuse or small edits (eg if the EMU are pretty much the same) including SAT does not save much typing but makes the debug nastier as you'd go checking all the platform conflicts that are actually just between SX and SO.

Last edited: 16/01/2022 at 16:20 by bill_gensheet
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1985 Timetable 21/01/2022 at 20:18 #143722
lukebriner
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Are you saying that if I created, e.g. a decision for Monday, one for Tue-Fri and one for Saturday, for example then the user will just get one at random or are you saying that I should link them to the startup choices?

When I start WVs up, there is no day choice so do I need to add decisions if I want them to appear in the startup dialog or does it depend on the sim as to whether the day is offered as a choice?

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1985 Timetable 21/01/2022 at 20:26 #143723
Albert
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If you create a decision, the sim makes the choice for you once the first train for which it matters is bound to enter.

(Many timetable editors let a seeded train depend on the day of the week, so you will see a message in the message box immediately when starting.)

AJP in games
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1985 Timetable 21/01/2022 at 20:41 #143725
postal
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lukebriner in post 143722 said:
Are you saying that if I created, e.g. a decision for Monday, one for Tue-Fri and one for Saturday, for example then the user will just get one at random or are you saying that I should link them to the startup choices?

When I start WVs up, there is no day choice so do I need to add decisions if I want them to appear in the startup dialog or does it depend on the sim as to whether the day is offered as a choice?
Perhaps the easiest way to find your way through the forest would be to find a TT that has the DOTW decisions applied and try and follow what the TT writer has done there. It seems quite complicated when you are struggling to understand what other people are trying to explain but in reality is quite simple. Bear in mind that you can also combine decisions using the ANY and NOT functions so that you can have a TT set to pick one of the 5 normal weekdays and then have the full range of trains (e.g. MWFO, WFX etc.) all entering on the correct days without endless duplication of the train TTs. That works by the creation of the DOTW decision then the addition of the Decision and Choice(s) to the train TT. There is an explanation of how the DOTW decision making works towards the foot of this page of the Wiki.

The DOTW will be picked randomly by the sim when the first train with a DOTW decision required enters the sim. You can pin a day of the week by adjusting the weight given to the choices. The Carlisle 1979 TT has the full TT with random choice then the 5 separate day TTs forced by pinning the weight to demand the relevant single day.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
Last edited: 21/01/2022 at 20:44 by postal
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1985 Timetable 22/01/2022 at 00:26 #143740
bill_gensheet
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lukebriner in post 143722 said:
Are you saying that if I created, e.g. a decision for Monday, one for Tue-Fri and one for Saturday, for example then the user will just get one at random or are you saying that I should link them to the startup choices?

When I start WVs up, there is no day choice so do I need to add decisions if I want them to appear in the startup dialog or does it depend on the sim as to whether the day is offered as a choice?
No. DOTW is a random choice from the options you set and only happens when the timetable has started (but as Albert says that can often be 00:00 when a seeded train is day dependent).

I am saying that from the point of writing the timetable using a DOTW decision between TUE/WED/THU/FRI is fairly easy. You do not have that many extra trains to put in that are day of week dependent, maybe 20% of freights.

Once you include MON, maybe 50% of freights might use the choice - many 'MO' trains to put in the timetable but overall less run as many more are 'MX'.
Once you add SAT you could see 80% of freights and 50% of passenger trains being altered - a lot more timetable writing and potentially adding to the fog when debugging.

As well as writing, from a player viewpoint some may prefer 'lots of freight' (so would go for TUE/WED/THU/FRI) and others may prefer the added passenger of a summer Saturday.
That is why I would consider a separate SAT timetable so that the user can make their own choice by loading the right timetable file. As Postal notes, for Carlisle the author took it even further and has all 5 days available as 'forced' day of the week.

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1985 Timetable 22/01/2022 at 17:51 #143754
postal
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bill_gensheet in post 143740 said:
As Postal notes, for Carlisle the author took it even further and has all 5 days available as 'forced' day of the week.
In fairness it is only 5 minutes of extra work once the TT writing has been completed. You have to carry out the same 5-minutes worth of extra work any time an updated TT is issued but it is not really a major task.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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1985 Timetable 30/01/2022 at 14:00 #144911
bill_gensheet
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Some Littleton Colliery bits from RMWeb
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/61850-boscomoor-sidings-and-the-littleton-colliery-branch-staffordshire/

Includes box photos, although the sim is only concerned with what is needed to operate trains in and out.
Operationally the following is the most useful.... (edited)

Quote:
"The loading for a class 47 to Ironbridge / Buildwas was 27 MGRs and I am pretty sure the exchange sidings alongside the Up Grand Junction line could only take 24 maximum. This meant that a loco from Bescot would arrive on the Down Grand, change ends near the box then crossover into the yard, under the bridge, then over the king points at the colliery end, then back onto a waiting set. When the train was ready it would back out through the crossover onto the Down Main, then draw back through the crossover on the Up Main and proceed towards Bushbury Jn. Empties returning from Ironbridge arrived on the Down Main near the box, then the loco propelled the train through the crossover and round under the bridge. Class 47 detach, colliery loco attach and take them the 3 or so miles down the branch under the M6 through Otherton to the colliery."
Quote:
"introduction of Class 56s increased loadings to 32 wagons, 58s being the same."
Quote:
"The Rowntrees chocolate has been previously mentioned as arriving on T21 from Bescot then returning to Bescot with T21 or T22."
Quote:
We also occasionally had coal traffic for Didcot power station which was always serviced in two portions via Bescot. A trip loco was supposed to convey a 22 and a 23 to Bescot to make up to 45 wagons for the train to Didcot and back. This was a bone of contention between British Coal and the Trainload coal offices in Nottingham because the profit for a freight train is always in the last wagon. Littleton never gave us any 23s so 7V95 2143 Bescot -Didcot tended always to run short formed with 44 wagons instead of 45. Again, when 6M36 returned to Bescot the trai nwas split and sent to Littleton in two portions.

--------------

I have been looking over photos (looking at potentially doing a 1974 TT) and other periods have the Littleton - Ironbridge trains going to Stafford and returning, or Ironbridge mainly being served from Trentham / Silverdale / Cannock.

Would assume this was due to the sidings favouring northward departures once trains exceeded 24.

There are no Littleton MGR in 1974 or 1979 WTT / Birmingham trip notices, maybe Littleton was served by Stoke area trips ?
No, seems that Saltley based trips were not in the 'Birmingham Area' trip notices (ie Bescot)
Trip details for Ironbridge /Littleton 1979/78/86
https://www.pressreader.com/uk/traction/20210401/281513638940666

Bill

Last edited: 30/01/2022 at 17:29 by bill_gensheet
Reason: Add trips info

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