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E84 - approach control?

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E84 - approach control? 23/01/2022 at 21:39 #143786
VInce
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Hi all,

The down main to up main crossover at Newton Abbot East is limited to 40mph. The line speed at DM212 signal is 90mph dropping to a very short stretch of 60mph approaching signal E84.

If a route is set from E84 to E386 via the crossover E84 signal clears immediatley.

I find it a bit odd that there is no approach control on signal E84 to E386 thence into P3 at Newton Abbot. Could someone with appropriate knowledge confirm that this is indeed is correct?

Vince

I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me
Last edited: 23/01/2022 at 21:40 by VInce
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E84 - approach control? 23/01/2022 at 21:48 #143787
Dionysusnu
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A higher drop in speed with a free green is not unusual if there is a long distance between the signal and the start of that lower speed, as is the case here.

Regardless, the route into P3 from E84 is flashing yellows, not a free green. Maybe you were put off by the panel signals display option?

Last edited: 23/01/2022 at 21:52 by Dionysusnu
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E84 - approach control? 24/01/2022 at 01:53 #143792
VInce
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No, I wasn't confused by "panel signals".

I did say the signal cleared i.e. indicated a proceed aspect, not necessarily a green.

But thank you for the explanation.

Vince

I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me
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E84 - approach control? 24/01/2022 at 10:37 #143794
lazzer
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VInce in post 143792 said:
No, I wasn't confused by "panel signals".

I did say the signal cleared i.e. indicated a proceed aspect, not necessarily a green.

But thank you for the explanation.

Vince
Several of the services I drive go into platform 3 at NTA on the down, and use that crossover. Every time that route is set in advance (and assuming the driver has not yet passed DM211 and DM212), the driver gets the flashing yellows at DM211 and DM212, as one would expect. Both E84 AND E386 remain at single yellow until the train gets nearer to E84, whereupon E84 steps up to a double yellow. This assumes the signaller has E388 at danger, which they very often will do during this move, only setting the road back out onto the Down Main at NTA West once the train has stopped in the platform, or is rolling to a stand. The sim reproduces all of this perfectly.

The only reason I can think that there is no approach control for E84 is because not only do you get flashing yellows to remind you to reduce speed, but the speed reduction for the crossover is only 20mph. The 60mph PSR starts well before you sight E84, so you will never be approaching E84 at anything more than that speed.

Out of interest, the sighting of signal E84 is quite short, as it is located just after a sharp left-hand curve (with lots of trees to obscure the view), so you have to be careful approaching it at danger. Also, you can pass E84 at 60mph and it will still step up to double yellow, although I would not advise drivers to leave their braking for the crossover quite that late

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E84 - approach control? 24/01/2022 at 15:57 #143795
Dionysusnu
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VInce in post 143792 said:
No, I wasn't confused by "panel signals".

I did say the signal cleared i.e. indicated a proceed aspect, not necessarily a green.

But thank you for the explanation.

Vince
A difference in terminology then. You said "no approach control", which I interpreted as meaning free green. Flashing yellows are officially also a form of approach control.

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E84 - approach control? 24/01/2022 at 16:26 #143796
Peter Bennet
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Dionysusnu in post 143795 said:
VInce in post 143792 said:
No, I wasn't confused by "panel signals".

I did say the signal cleared i.e. indicated a proceed aspect, not necessarily a green.

But thank you for the explanation.

Vince
A difference in terminology then. You said "no approach control", which I interpreted as meaning free green. Flashing yellows are officially also a form of approach control.
Approach control can also be "release from Yellow".

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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E84 - approach control? 24/01/2022 at 16:36 #143797
Dionysusnu
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Peter Bennet in post 143796 said:
Dionysusnu in post 143795 said:
VInce in post 143792 said:
No, I wasn't confused by "panel signals".

I did say the signal cleared i.e. indicated a proceed aspect, not necessarily a green.

But thank you for the explanation.

Vince
A difference in terminology then. You said "no approach control", which I interpreted as meaning free green. Flashing yellows are officially also a form of approach control.
Approach control can also be "release from Yellow".

Peter
And lastly, a splitting distant also counts, making the total options:
- Unrestricted
Approach control:
- Released from red
- Released from single yellow (4-aspect areas only)
- Flashing yellows
- Splitting distant

Last edited: 24/01/2022 at 16:36 by Dionysusnu
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E84 - approach control? 24/01/2022 at 17:25 #143798
Splodge
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And yet as drivers we're told 'there's no such thing as an approach controlled signal'

(though this is more about never assuming a given signal will come off as we approach it)

There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway.
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E84 - approach control? 24/01/2022 at 18:00 #143799
jc92
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Dionysusnu in post 143797 said:
Peter Bennet in post 143796 said:
Dionysusnu in post 143795 said:
VInce in post 143792 said:
No, I wasn't confused by "panel signals".

I did say the signal cleared i.e. indicated a proceed aspect, not necessarily a green.

But thank you for the explanation.

Vince
A difference in terminology then. You said "no approach control", which I interpreted as meaning free green. Flashing yellows are officially also a form of approach control.
Approach control can also be "release from Yellow".

Peter
And lastly, a splitting distant also counts, making the total options:
- Unrestricted
Approach control:
- Released from red
- Released from single yellow (4-aspect areas only)
- Flashing yellows
- Splitting distant
Are we counting PRIs in this list as well? Still a signal given in advance to provide the driver an opportunity to reduce his speed appropriately. Perhaps more of a replacement.

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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E84 - approach control? 24/01/2022 at 18:34 #143801
Sam Tugwell
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lazzer in post 143794 said:
This assumes the signaller has E388 at danger, which they very often will do during this move
E388 wont clear unless the track circuit in Newton Abbot Platform 3 shows occupied.

"Signalman Exeter"
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E84 - approach control? 24/01/2022 at 18:36 #143802
JamesN
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Generally speaking, PRIs aren’t proven lit so I don’t think they’d be allowed for safety-critical routing information (IE significant speed restrictions, difference in electrification etc). Also due to their form they would be quite low readability for signal sighting, the only example I’ve seen from the front of a train is on the Down Main of the GWML at Southall West - and to clearly read it, particularly when showing diverging at 100mph was about 2-3 seconds reading time when the arrow was defined enough against the low winter setting sun behind it.

I’ve only ever seen them installed alongside existing approach control; or where approach control is not provided.

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E84 - approach control? 24/01/2022 at 19:59 #143805
Dionysusnu
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JamesN in post 143802 said:
Generally speaking, PRIs aren’t proven lit so I don’t think they’d be allowed for safety-critical routing information (IE significant speed restrictions, difference in electrification etc).
I’ve only ever seen them installed alongside existing approach control; or where approach control is not provided.
This quote from the Rugby Centre simulation manual implies that it can affect approach control:
Quote:
RN3357 to RC6007 is a free-green route but only if an approaching train has seen the first Preliminary Route Indicator (PRI) located after signal KR3345 and before the Down Northampton/Coventry flyover.
Although it should be noted this route has an identical speed limit and traction compatibility, so the PRI is not safety-critical.

Last edited: 24/01/2022 at 19:59 by Dionysusnu
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E84 - approach control? 24/01/2022 at 23:44 #143808
eps125
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Dionysusnu in post 143805 said:
JamesN in post 143802 said:
Generally speaking, PRIs aren’t proven lit so I don’t think they’d be allowed for safety-critical routing information (IE significant speed restrictions, difference in electrification etc).
I’ve only ever seen them installed alongside existing approach control; or where approach control is not provided.
This quote from the Rugby Centre simulation manual implies that it can affect approach control:
Quote:
RN3357 to RC6007 is a free-green route but only if an approaching train has seen the first Preliminary Route Indicator (PRI) located after signal KR3345 and before the Down Northampton/Coventry flyover.
Although it should be noted this route has an identical speed limit and traction compatibility, so the PRI is not safety-critical.
And that's because in a Pendo you are doing 125 at the first PRI. If the PRI is set for West Mids when you are booked Trent you need to make a full service brake application pretty much immediately or you have no chance of stopping at the junction signal (same applies vice versa). I always sit forward when approaching that PRI and find myself squinting to try and get a clue early doors so I have a bit more warning. Also of note is that RN3357 PRI(2) always seems to be really dim which doesn't help matters.

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