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| One for the hosts or Solo play. 28/01/2010 at 22:32 #6285 | |
UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
I seem to recall seeing a certain driver diagram for one particular TOC who operate trains to and from London and this diagram involves (after driving a service into London and taking the train to a nearby depot on an ECS move) the driver being spare to work as needed and that would include picking up a spare train if requested to do so. Although I have never known a TOC to actually do this...I am sure that it does happen for real. I also seem to recall seeing a "Standby Turn" where the driver would clock in at the depot in the morning and stay there for 10 hours, after which he would clock out. So it would appear to me that there are still spare drivers at depots .... but it's just a question of also having spare trains too. Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Log in to reply |
| One for the hosts or Solo play. 28/01/2010 at 23:47 #6287 | |
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lpeters
160 posts |
There are definately some long-haul sets stored as hot spares at depots. E.g. East Coast HST Diagram EC001 operates as a hot spare at bounds green before going out as 1S22 and East Coast IC225 Diagram operates as a hot spare at Bounds Green for a much shorter time before heading out to either Neville Hill (M-ThO) for overnight storage or London kings Cross to go out as 1N16. I know that not all local sets will be out at anyone time so i'm guessing there's spares etc. at the depots. Log in to reply |
| One for the hosts or Solo play. 29/01/2010 at 01:06 #6289 | |
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UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
Perhaps I could have written my previous post a little better. Whilst I sadly cannot go into too much detail nor can I name the TOC or the depot(s) involved I can however say that they operate 'units' (as opposed to 'HSTs', 'Pendolinos'/'Voyagers' and other express trains on longer distance services). That is all I can really say. [sub]Sorry![/sub] Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Log in to reply |
| One for the hosts or Solo play. 29/01/2010 at 06:34 #6290 | |
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20001
10 posts |
UKTM, Northern have in the past had units and staff at strategic locations on the network (normally depot or stabling point), with the crew sat spare in case of problems. Its an idea that appeals, but it needs to be done properly.
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| One for the hosts or Solo play. 29/01/2010 at 12:17 #6301 | |
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caedave
142 posts |
Not sure of the TOC (it's changed recently) but Stourbridge Jcn stabling keeps a single car unit (158?) on standby for the Perry People Mover and, I have seen full (4 car) units sitting there for a couple of hours at a time. Wether that is for cover or just time tabling I don't know. Dave M. Log in to reply |
| One for the hosts or Solo play. 29/01/2010 at 12:58 #6305 | |
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John
884 posts |
In the case of Kings Cross, there would be plenty of spare stock available; Hornsey would be full off the trains by the end of the morning peak. But it's no good having spare stock berthed at Hornsey - the station is where the stock needs to be. If a train fails in the station, chances are it'll take far too long to mobilise stock and driver from the depot to recover the service, so it makes sense to have a spare unit in berth for such an eventuality. Then, if unused, the unit can form part of an evening peak service. From an operational perspective, having spare stock on standby in the platform is a no brainer, with the only constraint being platform space. Log in to reply |
| One for the hosts or Solo play. 29/01/2010 at 14:27 #6308 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
caedave said:Stourbridge Jcn stabling keeps a single car unit (158?)More likely a 153. There must have been some 158s split into single cars for strengthening 2-car sets to 3-car, but I don't think there have ever been any 158 carriages with two cabs (my "must have" above was based on recently seeing a 3-car 158 with 3 cabs, 1 per carriage, at Bristol TM) Log in to reply |
| One for the hosts or Solo play. 29/01/2010 at 16:16 #6311 | |
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kbarber
1712 posts |
John said:In the case of Kings Cross, there would be plenty of spare stock available; Hornsey would be full off the trains by the end of the morning peak.There's actually very few hard & fast rules on this. Once upon a time, as Mickster implies, there would have been spare traincrews sitting around awaiting work. A lot of that came to an end in the 1970s & 80s, when economies had to be made. For a time some "cover turns" were included in rosters, so that there was usually at least one spare crew to take up a working in case of perturbation. By the mid-80s Regional HQ were requiring that cover turns be written out of the rosters. Minutes of meetings recorded Area Traincrew Managers imposing this in the face of vigorous protests from staff reps. (But invariably, once the sound and fury had been formally recorded for the benefit of those who needed to hear it, there was an off-the-record conversation when the TCM outlined arrangements that would be made to ensure cover was available  - and equally invariably Staff Side were in complete agreement.) With the post-Hatfield drive for performance I believe the wheel has come full circle and cover turns exist once more, at least in some places. In fact I understand the penalties are sufficiently eye-watering that one TOC could almost justify hiring a helicopter to get a crew to another location where they are needed!Then there's Spare turns. You can't make a roster without spares; they're the traincrew equivalent of relief signalmen, present in the roster in an agreed ratio so that they can be rostered to cover leave, sickness or other eventualities. But if the depot is healthy and it's a quiet time of year for annual leave, there may well be Spare crews sitting around who haven't been rostered, in which case they can be called upon to move trains to the local main station or even to take up part of a driving turn in place of a late-running arrival. (A resourceful/persuasive Traincrew Supervisor helps here, as does application of that lubricant generally referred to as overtime.) At some depots there were more spare turns than usual; Ripple Lane was an example. It allowed the roster clerks and TCS to respond very quickly to traffic changes, helped by the fact that Ripple Lane men went just-about everywhere in southern England; indeed it was said that when Neil Armstrong stepped onto the Moon there was a Ripple Lane crew there to relieve him! It used to be the practice, where a depot was some little way from a station, to have one or more "Ferry sets" rostered. That was certainly true of Euston in the early '80s, with the ferrymen working locos to Willesden TMD for repairs or regular maintenance. A clever TCS might persuade a ferry set to work a train - but there might be good reasons (medical or other restrictions) why they couldn't, so it was possible you'd have a traincrew with no work, a train waiting crew, and no possibility of using them. Freight working offered innumerable possibilities of squeezing extra drivers. An early runner (assisted by skilful regulating) could deliver a crew an hour or more early at destination. It would sometimes be possible to persuade them to work a train. In some cases a crew booked home passenger would find that doing as the TCS asked might even get them home quicker than their next available passenger train; agreeing in advance the amount of overtime to be paid would help that along even more, as the homegoing train would usually run extremely well! (Of course there might also be crews who declined the offer, even if bacsheesh were on the table.) Have I just described the next area for the Control Office module we were discussing earlier? (Do you think I can make a bid for Kurt's (obviously undeserved) reputation?) John said: <snip> I believe this is the main problem at Kings Cross. But a good Controller should be able to arrange for stepping up (albeit perhaps with delays as trains try to turn round in 4 minutes flat) until such time as a new unit can be got into service. Of course if there's no spare crew to bring it into the Cross, the crew might be sent to Hornsey to bring the train into service (in the down direction) from there - yet another variation. Perhaps I see why no-one's yet tried to program a Control sub-sim. Log in to reply |
| One for the hosts or Solo play. 29/01/2010 at 17:23 #6314 | |
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John
884 posts |
Surely there's room to accomodate a four car at least? Whenever I've played the sim, it's apparent that Platform 8 is lightly used off peak - if at all. Log in to reply |
| One for the hosts or Solo play. 29/01/2010 at 22:53 #6320 | |
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daverail01
32 posts |
kbarber said:indeed it was said that when Neil Armstrong stepped onto the Moon there was a Ripple Lane crew there to relieve him! I always thought it was a set of Saltley men :-) Log in to reply |
| One for the hosts or Solo play. 30/01/2010 at 21:48 #6340 | |
Chrisrail
384 posts |
Could have been Tinsley as that was closing then
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| One for the hosts or Solo play. 23/02/2010 at 06:50 #6893 | |
Champs450007
96 posts |
I did start up a topic after thinking all of this myself but didnt see this one. As a few people have said take waterloo for example, if trains are heavily delayed outside of the peak there is always stock sitting in clapham yard and there is always atleast 3 drivers spare in waterloo and atleast 5 guards (as im spare quiet alot at waterloo lol). What would be good would be something along sigcents lines where you can contact a depot and see what stock are in the depot and request it but it doesnt come out straight away adding to the realism of having to send a crew down to the stock 
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| One for the hosts or Solo play. 23/02/2010 at 14:54 #6903 | |
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afro09
167 posts |
It is great to see such a huge amount of discusion with different alternatives being offered. And I think now would be a good time to explain my reasoning behind suggesting this Idea. Here in Ireland, we have atleast 2 spare drivers and 2 spare sets in each depot, so if a train was running late, for example A train is 25 mins down at Hitchin, a spare drive would take 1 of the spare sets to KX to be put up for the next working of delayed set. Then at KX either The set would be taken over by the driver working the next working of the delayed train and the spare driver would wait at KX to take the delayed set back to the depot to be added back to the spare pool, or, if the driver of the delayed inbound service was also working the next outbound working for that set, the spare driver would leave KX on-time with the next working of delayed set and cross over with the delayed driver say around alexandra palace, where the rostered driver would then take over the on-time outbound service and the spare driver would take the delayed service into KX then back to the depot. I say Driver as we no longer have Driver - Guard - ticket checker crews in operation. As all our sets now have automated doors each service is operated by just a driver, with travelling ticket checkers hoping on and off trains within a certain geographical area. Log in to reply |
| One for the hosts or Solo play. 24/02/2010 at 06:18 #6911 | |
northroad
870 posts |
Afro, Having no detailed knowledge of the permitted runnings etc and using the sims for recraetional purposes only can I suggest that the incoming late service is terminated and then run ECS to a convenient point back up the line to tie in with it's follow on service. i.e Delayed service is terminated at Kings Cross with the ECS for a train whoose next service is to be Welwyn GC to Kings Cross could be run to say Hatfield or New Barnet (somewhere with a suitable crossover available) and then timed in the already existing timetable to pick up, originate or take over form that point back to the Cross. As a result of this the unit would then eventually resume it's booked trains for the day and no additional stock would be required. Disadvantage being that you would have to cancel one service and I don't know how that would result in penalty points for the sim or if this is allowable. By using the timetable editor in this way the alert that the driver has been told of the timetable changes would then kick in. I think this then covers what has been stated in other posts that you don't have to build something else into the sim and you are using what existing facilities and messages are available to you. Just a suggestion and I must admit I run late services in the Kings sim in the hope that they will eventually make up time. Geoff. Log in to reply |
| One for the hosts or Solo play. 24/02/2010 at 07:03 #6912 | |
Peter Bennet
5360 posts |
Without trawling back through this to see if it's been mentioned before but you can run services non-stop to a specified next station via the f2 menu. Just 'edit timetable' and select the next desired stop followed by "set next location". The train will then run non-stop to that location. So a Moorgate Welwyn service could make up a whole load of time between FP and WGC. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| One for the hosts or Solo play. 24/02/2010 at 08:13 #6913 | |
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northroad
870 posts |
Hi Peter, Yes that was my point, run the delayed service i.e. was the delayed 2B40 fast to say New Barnet (instead of all the way to Welwyn) from Kings Cross and reverse via the crossovers at New Barnet to pick up what would have been the trains schedule for the way back up to the Cross from Welwyn as the 2V41 for example. This way the delay does not have too long a knock effect and you do not need a spare set to complete the operation. Geoff Log in to reply |
| One for the hosts or Solo play. 24/02/2010 at 09:04 #6914 | |
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GoochyB
222 posts |
northroad said:Disadvantage being that you would have to cancel one service and I don't know how that would result in penalty points for the sim or if this is allowable. I don't think the sim would give you any kind of penalty, presumably since in real life it wouldn't be the signaller's call to make that decision it would be the relevant train operator because cancelling a service has knock on effects for passengers (although if everything is running late then there may be another close behind anyway). Personally I tend to take a view on whether there is another service on that route not far behind that can pick up the slack so passengers aren't inconvenienced too much more, and then as Peter says run non-stop over the core section of the route to pick up some time. [And I use the term passengers rather than customers because that's what they were in 1985, when I tend to do KX!] Brian Log in to reply |
| One for the hosts or Solo play. 24/02/2010 at 10:37 #6915 | |
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John
884 posts |
You make it sound as though having a spare set on hand at KX is a huge problem. On the contrary, it is the only sensible thing to do. Running trains fast to make up time is known as a part cancellation (PINED) a course of action which the TOC will be penalised for. If you have a standby unit ready for service at KX, that unit and the cover driver can then be utilised to recover the late runners next working. The late runner on arrival at KX can then replace the spare unit. Having a train running late is frustrating enough for the punters, but adding insult to injury by booting them all off at Stevenage and making them wait for the next train (which will make them even later for their appointments and subject them to the further indignity of an overcrowded train) is far from an acceptable solution. As I have said before, at the end of the peak Hornsey would be full of stock, so identify a platform that is lightly used (platform 8 for example) and berth a spare unit in it, this gives you more options when it comes to service recovery. But its not just late running, spare sets can be used as a convenient step up when a train arrives and is discovered to have a faulty CSR, AWS, vigilance etc and requires the fitters attendance. Yes, you could step up without a spare unit, but if the fitter cannot fix the fault, you will be forced to step up, and up, and up, and up until a unit can be brought into service from Hornsey which is far from ideal. You've got the stock, you've got the space, you might as well use it! Log in to reply |
| One for the hosts or Solo play. 24/02/2010 at 12:46 #6916 | |
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caedave
142 posts |
Brian makes a good point, and there in lies the rub. Do you want a game with lots of little tricks to help you get a minimum score, or do you want a simulator that tries to show you how the job is actually done. Me, I fall into the later group, if it's not something the signaler can do, then leave it out. However, it should be remembered that we are actually running two software programs at the same time, SimSig and the WTT. This one is I feel a WTT problem. Perhaps an extension to the Rules section that would allow a train to change it's TT in mid stride and/or trigger another train service if it's say, so many minutes late at a timing point. This to happen automatically with just a message to the signaler that this extra and/or change has happened. If we want to take on the Regulator/Control/TOC Managers job then perhaps a suitable extension to the F2 Train Window is called for. Dave M. Log in to reply |
| One for the hosts or Solo play. 24/02/2010 at 13:22 #6919 | |
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Peter Bennet
5360 posts |
Agreed this is a WTT issue, it is entirely within the gift of 'control' to write into the WTT additional services which the signaller will then signal to the best of his ability from wherever 'control' deems it to start from and to where it will end. Somewhere in the download area there is a timetablel of mine that has (several?) pairs of trains on a mutually exclusive basis which will either run as 'normal' or on a random basis a train will enter booked to fail (at Hitchin I believe) whereupon it will shunt into the siding and X mins later a fresh unit will appear from Hornsey to take up the timetable. It's slightly artificial in that as soon as the train enters you know what will happen- but it's there. Also remember that once you have the timetable downloaded you are completely free to fiddle with it as you see fit for your own purposes, so adding ECS or whatever is your choice. The only caveate is that if you then seek to distribute the ameded timetable to others the original author (where known) is credited. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |