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| Confused by 'Path' in Show Timetable 06/11/2011 at 07:07 #22550 | |
maxand
1637 posts |
 Both 1K65 and 1O95 (behind it) are travelling UP (which in this sim translates into Right to Left) to terminate at Fareham (off the top LH corner of this pic). 1O95's timetable displays this clearly:  1O95 must arrive at Northam Junction on the 'FL' line. I presume this refers to the UP FAST line, which makes sense as this is a passenger train. However when it reaches St. Denys the 'Path' is designated as 'DN' which means DOWN to me. Common sense dictates that I should set a route for 1O95 exactly as I have done for 1K65, i.e., along the UP FAST line, and to heck with any DN directive. There is obviously no platform with this name. There are DOWN SLOW and DOWN FAST lines, but these are not bidirectional. Well, there's 'BARRIERS DOWN' - is this what DN is supposed to refer to? But it's a 'Path', not a Level Crossing direction. More impenetrable jargon. Nowhere does it seem to tell me what the 'Path' column in Show Timetable is supposed to mean, as opposed to the Platform and Line columns, which are self-evident. Can someone please explain what 'Path' is all about? For what it's worth, the only relevant thread I can find is Routin to the 'wrong' line on double-track sections Last edited: 06/11/2011 at 07:08 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Confused by 'Path' in Show Timetable 06/11/2011 at 07:17 #22553 | |
Peter Bennet
5400 posts |
There is a bit about line and path codes =path]here. As you will see they are a function of ARS and are otherwise a helpful guide as to what to do in the case of a choice. Yes it could be in the manual but in this instance you have no choice so ignore the DN bit. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Confused by 'Path' in Show Timetable 06/11/2011 at 07:39 #22554 | |
Meld
1111 posts |
Max 'DN' in this case doesn't stand for Down it stands for 'Down Netley' The routing options at St Denys are : UM/DM - Up/Down Main to/from Eastleigh UN/DN - Up/Down Netley to/from Portsmouth Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!! Last edited: 06/11/2011 at 07:39 by Meld Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Confused by 'Path' in Show Timetable 06/11/2011 at 07:43 #22555 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thank you both very much for clearing that up! 
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| Re: Confused by 'Path' in Show Timetable 07/11/2011 at 11:25 #22577 | |
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kbarber
1737 posts |
Just to clarify, this is one of those situations where a line changes direction between up and down. I suspect the Netley lines directions are taken from Fareham, where they join (IIRC) the Portsmouth Direct. That effectively creates a rather large triangle, with Woking at the northern tip (and several other possible triangles arising from other links). It used to be, in manual days, that the change would happen between the adjacent boxes, so that box A's up line would be box B's down line. It required very careful & precise thinking if messages had to be passed relating to one line but not t'other (I had to deal with this at Junction Road, where the connection from the Tottenham & Hampstead line goes up to Gospel Oak on the North London line). I suspect the modern way is to define the new direction from the point of junction. So the Down Netley would leave the Down Fast at the points immediately south of the platform at St Denys where it joins the Down Main from the Eastleigh direction. The Up Netley, on the other hand, I would expect to become the Down Slow at the trailing crossover where trains from the Eastleigh direction can join it. Hope this is useful. Log in to reply |
| Re: Confused by 'Path' in Show Timetable 08/11/2011 at 22:38 #22616 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks Keith. However, I am still a bit perplexed. Source: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/passenger_services/maps/nationalrailnetworkmapZoom.pdf (A great map for me - I can zoom in/out and drag it in any direction.) I have drawn and labelled the arrows on this map in accordance with the directions of the arrows on the Southampton sim. I have no dispute with the directions shown on the Main line. Up passes through Eastleigh, Winchester and Basingstoke. Down passes through Brockenhurst and splits to terminate at Bournemouth and Lymington Pier. However, Meld in post #3 above states: Quote: UN/DN - Up/Down Netley to/from Portsmouthwhich is opposite to the arrows on the sim, in which an Up Netley train moves to, and terminates at, Southampton. A Down Netley train passes out through Fareham and thence to Portsmouth (or Havant, according to the map). I guess what confuses me is the meaning of "Up Netley". Does it mean "from Portsmouth up to Southampton, thence up to London", or "from Portsmouth up to Netley"? On the other hand, when one examines the map, the Up Netley line runs in the same direction as the Down Main between St. Denys and Southampton Central. To add to this, Netley is not a major terminus. In fact, it's not even the first station off the map (Fareham is). Why choose Netley for a Path label? Was the developer of this sim following an established naming procedure? I would have thought it would have been more sensible to call them "Up (from) Fareham" and "Down (to) Fareham". Last edited: 08/11/2011 at 22:39 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Confused by 'Path' in Show Timetable 08/11/2011 at 22:42 #22617 | |
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Peter Bennet
5400 posts |
I think the answer to that question lies with the railway company that originally built the route 100 odd years ago. We don't tend to make these things up but replicate reality. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Re: Confused by 'Path' in Show Timetable 08/11/2011 at 23:58 #22621 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks Peter. I infer from this that Up Netley/Down Netley are the official names for these lines/paths. Interesting. Maybe the original line terminated at Netley? Or maybe Netley was chosen because it conveniently happens to be about halfway along the Southampton-Portsmouth line, so "Up Netley" really means "Up (towards London) on the line that passes through Netley"? Who knows.
Last edited: 09/11/2011 at 00:32 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Confused by 'Path' in Show Timetable 09/11/2011 at 06:34 #22629 | |
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Peter Bennet
5400 posts |
" said:Thanks Peter. I infer from this that Up Netley/Down Netley are the official names for these lines/paths. Interesting. I'd put my money on it- at a guess the "Netley" is just the bit as far as the Junction with the line from Eastleigh which will be the Up/Down something else, possibly all the way to Portsmouth environs. " said:
Not all lines go to/from London but they all have an Up/Down direction, I don't know what the convention is there but it maybe Up=Northwardly and Down = Southwardly for example. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Re: Confused by 'Path' in Show Timetable 09/11/2011 at 09:07 #22633 | |
jc92
3683 posts 
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usually if a line does not run from or to london, the convention is that the companys nearest headquarters is its replacement. for instance on the hope valley down is sheffield - manchester as manchester was the nearest major headquarters for the midland (direction changes at dore and totley stn junction). the exception being the GC where down is to london, up is to cleethorpes/manchester "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Re: Confused by 'Path' in Show Timetable 09/11/2011 at 09:41 #22635 | |
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Late Turn
697 posts |
Although on the GC, the London Extension's 'down' direction was indeed towards London initially. This was reversed quite early on though, to follow the usual convention - the mileages, however, to this day are measured from Manchester - so the mileage increases in the 'up' direction, unusually. Manchester to Cleethorpes is the 'up' direction throughout. Log in to reply |
| Re: Confused by 'Path' in Show Timetable 09/11/2011 at 11:10 #22639 | |
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kbarber
1737 posts |
"Up" and "Down" could be quite arbitrary at times. Summary of a few rules of thumb (most of which have already been mentioned): Up = towards London Up = towards company HQ (In the South Wales valleys, and on the Ffestiniog Railway) Up = uphill When the line was built, the direction currently (but illogically) shown as "Up" truly was up, for the company that built it and in the context of the network as it existed then. If all else failed, some Civil Engineer would decide which way should be Up (perhaps with consequences for subsequent additions). At a subsequent date, someone decided to rename the directions, either for one particular line for for a substantial part of the network. In the St Denys case, as the London & Southampton was early on the scene the directions would have been established there very early on. I would imagine the Fareham - St Denys branch was built from the Fareham end and therefore took its directions from the layout at Fareham. As I said, in mechanical days it wasn't such a problem. There would be a box at all 3 corners of a triangle and, on the last side of the triangle that was built, the line designation would change between the boxes. Likewise where two companies' lines met with the designations transposed (Exeter West & Cowley Bridge Junction f'rinstance, or Gospel Oak (from Junction Road). It's only where one box takes on 2 or 3 corners of a triangle or other companies' lines that these things become an issue. But basically we have no option but to accept that things just are as they are. Log in to reply |
| Re: Confused by 'Path' in Show Timetable 09/11/2011 at 12:09 #22641 | |
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AndyG
1842 posts |
I see that Westbury-Salisbury is Down. So trains from Cardiff to Portsmouth travel down from Westbury to Salisbury, up from Salisbury to Southampton/St Denys and down from St Denys to Portsmouth. You also have the ex LSWR main line Waterloo to Barnstaple going down through Exeter St Davids in the opposite direction to the GWR down from Bristol to Penzance. I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| Confused by 'Path' in Show Timetable 25/07/2015 at 11:18 #74464 | |
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g5btb5g
2 posts |
The reason why the Fareham to St Denys line is shown as Up/Down Netley is because when the line 1st opened it only ran from the St Denys end to Netley, so Netley was the terminus. It was a few years later the line was extended to Fareham.
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| Re: Confused by 'Path' in Show Timetable 25/07/2015 at 11:25 #74465 | |
KymriskaDraken
963 posts |
" said:I see that Westbury-Salisbury is Down.If you start from Cardiff you go on the Up Main as far as Severn Tunnel Jn, Up Tunnel to Patchway, Down Bristol to Filton Jn, Down Filton to Dr Days Jn, Down Filton Main or Relief into Temple Meads where you reverse. Then back out on the Up Main to Bathampton Jn, Up Trowbridge to Westbury and then the Down Salisbury to Salisbury. The train "changes" direction a lot from up to down, but only actually reverses once at Bristol TM. Also you get name changes between TCB and AB areas. For example the Up & Down Hereford lines go from Newport to Little Mill Jn, and are then labelled as Up & Down Main in the manual boxes from Abergavenny up to Hereford. Log in to reply |