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Wembley Suburban - Routesetting into Camden Jn

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Wembley Suburban - Routesetting into Camden Jn 02/07/2011 at 23:25 #3341
emorris
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Hi. I'm pretty new to SimSig and have been trying the Wembley Suburban simulation. However, I can't seem to work out how to set a route from Kilburn High Rd. through South Hampstead to Camden Jn. I cannot click on signal 2 to set the start of the route. The trains just sit in Kilburn and eventually call and I let them pass at danger. The emergency signal at South Hampstead isn't set.

If anyone could shed some light on what I'm doing wrong it would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance. :-)

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Wembley Suburban - Routesetting into Camden Jn 02/07/2011 at 23:25 #17156
emorris
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Hi. I'm pretty new to SimSig and have been trying the Wembley Suburban simulation. However, I can't seem to work out how to set a route from Kilburn High Rd. through South Hampstead to Camden Jn. I cannot click on signal 2 to set the start of the route. The trains just sit in Kilburn and eventually call and I let them pass at danger. The emergency signal at South Hampstead isn't set.

If anyone could shed some light on what I'm doing wrong it would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance. :-)

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Wembley Suburban - Routesetting into Camden Jn 03/07/2011 at 00:01 #17157
mfcooper
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Have a look at Clive's website (the developer of Wembley Suburban SimSig) for the manual...

http://www.davros.org/rail/SimSig/wembleysub-manual.html

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Wembley Suburban - Routesetting into Camden Jn 03/07/2011 at 00:25 #17158
emorris
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mfcooper said:
Have a look at Clive's website (the developer of Wembley Suburban SimSig) for the manual...

http://www.davros.org/rail/SimSig/wembleysub-manual.html
I've read through that. It looks like signal 2 should go red if you try and send a LU train through it, but it seems to be stuck on red constantly.

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Wembley Suburban - Routesetting into Camden Jn 03/07/2011 at 01:05 #17159
AndyG
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Manual: "If a train with an LU headcode is signalled towards Kilburn High Road from signal 4 (Queens Park Up line), signal 2 will revert to red and stay so until the train has reversed (more precisely, until signal 7 has been cleared and then the platform is unoccupied)."
Is this the problem?

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Wembley Suburban - Routesetting into Camden Jn 03/07/2011 at 01:21 #17160
emorris
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AndyG said:
Manual: "If a train with an LU headcode is signalled towards Kilburn High Road from signal 4 (Queens Park Up line), signal 2 will revert to red and stay so until the train has reversed (more precisely, until signal 7 has been cleared and then the platform is unoccupied)."
Is this the problem?
Aha. Setting a route from signal 7 then immediately clearing it solved the problem. Thanks.

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Wembley Suburban - Routesetting into Camden Jn 03/07/2011 at 08:45 #17163
postal
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Could mods please move this thread to the Wembley Sub section so that others with similar problems will be able to find it more easily.
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Wembley Suburban - Routesetting into Camden Jn 03/07/2011 at 18:12 #17191
UKTrainMan
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Just a note that this matter has previously been covered here.
Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for.
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Wembley Suburban - Routesetting into Camden Jn 20/06/2013 at 13:23 #45842
maxand
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I thought I would test this, so set a route from signal 8 to 4 to 2 and waited for a train with a LU headcode (Knnn where n is a digit) to approach.

When it reached signal 8 I received a phone call from the driver saying the wrong route was set, so there's no way it can even get to 4. Except maybe if I signalled the driver to proceed through 8, or maybe changed its headcode, but why would I need to perform either of these two actions?

It thus seems as though the code in this sim has been changed so it is the LU driver who takes preventative action, rather than an approach control mechanism stepping in. Does this render the manual's advice

Quote:
If a train with an LU headcode is signalled towards Kilburn High Road from signal 4 (Queens Park Up line), signal 2 will revert to red and stay so until the train has reversed.
unnecessary? The manual does not mention the incorrect route setting alert.

BTW, the link in the previous post by UKTrainMan is now broken, so I have not been able to follow this up.

Last edited: 20/06/2013 at 13:28 by maxand
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Wembley Suburban - Routesetting into Camden Jn 20/06/2013 at 15:21 #45844
Jan
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No, the driver was complaining because according to his timetable, he is supposed to continue towards Elephant & Castle. As he doesn't know whether you've made a mistake, or actually intend to reverse the train at Kilburn High Road, he's checking back with you. If you pretend that there is some disruption on the Bakerloo Line with Queen's Park being blocked, you could legitimately tell the driver to abandon his timetable, in which case he will happily continue towards Kilburn High Road - but not any further, because 4th rail electrification ends there.
However, there are one or two LU trains a day in the supplied timetable which are actually scheduled to reverse at Kilburn High Road, presumably either route learners or rusty rail moves.

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Wembley Suburban - Routesetting into Camden Jn 20/06/2013 at 16:18 #45848
Steamer
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maxand said:
The manual does not mention the incorrect route setting alert.
This is a standard feature in all SimSig simulations (hence no specific mention on the Wembley Sub page)- if you attempt to send the driver down a route that will cause him to miss a station call, or that will take him to the wrong destination, the driver will ring up and challenge the route (as would happen in real life). You have the option of either apologising and cancelling the route and then setting the correct one (no ACOA penalty, but you will of course have to wait for the approach locking to time out before the route can be re-set), or you can tell him to abandon his timetable, in which case the train will carry on in the same direction until it falls off the simulation (it will still obey signal aspects, F2 controls still work etc.). If a lineside failure of some kind requires you to divert the train/shunt it etc, you can ignore the call and edit the timetable until the route you've set is valid, at which point the driver will stop calling you and continue to drive. If you tell him to abandon the timetable, you can re-instate it via F2>Timetable Options> Run to another timetable (the train ID column will show the original timetable, but the WTT column will be blank). You can also tell it to run to another timetable by the same method (note that in this case both the train ID and the WTT columns will change in F2). It's a bit complicated to explain all the different options on here, have a play around on a simulation and you'll get the idea.

manxand said:
Does this render the manual's advice unnecessary?

The various controls on the signals are a last line of defence against sending trains the wrong way as it is possible, however unlikely, that a real driver could accept a wrong route at signal 8. They will intervene if you send a 4th rail DC train that is timetabled to go to Kilburn High Road (as Jan says there are reasons why trains might need to go there)

The other type of call that is similar to this says words to the effect of "Traction not suitable". This will be received when you try and send an electric train onto a line that does not have the correct type of electrification (try sending an LU train towards Kensal Green Junction for example). In this case, there is no way of forcing the train to accept the route, and you will have to cancel the route and set another along a suitable line. The manual page has details of which lines are equipped with which types of electrification, and quite a few simulations mark the limit of electrification on the screen.

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Last edited: 20/06/2013 at 16:54 by Steamer
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Wembley Suburban - Routesetting into Camden Jn 21/06/2013 at 12:57 #45862
maxand
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Jan said in post #10

Quote:
However, there are one or two LU trains a day in the supplied timetable which are actually scheduled to reverse at Kilburn High Road, presumably either route learners or rusty rail moves.
In the default timetable I did come across T214-J (4DC power) which does just this. It departs StoneBridge LU depot at about 10 PM and terminates at Kilburn to become S214-K, which goes back down the line to return to StoneBridge depot. Presumably a late night train with few passengers. So it seems not all LU trains passing through Queens Park end up joining the Bakerloo line. There may be others with T headcodes in the default TT. Be warned.

To really spell it out, signal 2 will not clear until a route has been set from signal 7 to signal 11 AND the Camden side of Queens Park platform 4 is empty. Setting such a route immediately clears signal 2 for Camden-bound AC-3DC-powered trains, i.e., with a "2Cnn" headcode.

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Wembley Suburban - Routesetting into Camden Jn 21/06/2013 at 13:07 #45863
kbarber
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" said:
Jan said in post #10

Quote:
However, there are one or two LU trains a day in the supplied timetable which are actually scheduled to reverse at Kilburn High Road, presumably either route learners or rusty rail moves.
In the default timetable I did come across T214-J (4DC power) which does just this. It departs StoneBridge LU depot at about 10 PM and terminates at Kilburn to become S214-K, which goes back down the line to return to StoneBridge depot. Presumably a late night train with few passengers. So it seems not all LU trains passing through Queens Park end up joining the Bakerloo line. There may be others with T headcodes in the default TT. Be warned.


A train of that kind in an LT timetable is probably there deliberately as a points tester. In fact it may well be an ecs move - the LT description won't say whether it's carrying passengers or not. Certainly when I had any contact with LT working (I was supervisor at Barking in 1981 - 3, so a lot might have changed) the points tester arrived Eastbound at East Ham in passenger service, tipped out and went back to Aldgate East ecs from where it reversed and ran (still ecs) to Bromley-by-Bow, another reversal and back to Whitechapel where it reversed again using the east end crossover, finally running in passenger service to Barking where it terminated and went in to the depot. (At least I think that was the sequence.) All of this took place starting around 19:30hr Monday - Friday, so by no means always late evening.

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Wembley Suburban - Routesetting into Camden Jn 23/06/2013 at 14:46 #45948
clive
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" said:

You have the option of either apologising and cancelling the route and then setting the correct one (no ACOA penalty, but you will of course have to wait for the approach locking to time out before the route can be re-set), or you can tell him to abandon his timetable, in which case the train will carry on in the same direction until it falls off the simulation (it will still obey signal aspects, F2 controls still work etc.).
There's also the option of missing the next station in the timetable and then carrying on as normal. This may be viable in some situations on some sims.

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Wembley Suburban - Routesetting into Camden Jn 24/06/2013 at 09:09 #45972
clive
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" said:

To really spell it out, signal 2 will not clear until a route has been set from signal 7 to signal 11 AND the Camden side of Queens Park platform 4 is empty. Setting such a route immediately clears signal 2 for Camden-bound AC-3DC-powered trains, i.e., with a "2Cnn" headcode.
By default, signal 2 is clear.

2 is put back to red and held there when either signal 4 is off and train describer berth 4 holds an LU headcode (one beginning with a letter), or signals 8 and 4 are both off, the route is set from 8 to 4, and berth 8 holds an LU headcode. In other words, if an LU headcode is heading for signal 2. This latch is released, allowing 2 to clear again, when signal 7 has cleared to yellow at least once and is red again and track circuit EH (the one between signals 2 and 7) is clear.

The wording on the original signal diagram is:

"WS2 - signal controlled to red by LUL train described at ED berth with WS4 signal controls off or EA berth with WS8 signal controls off for route WS8(A) and WS4 controls off restored by EH track clear after WS signal controls off"

Last edited: 24/06/2013 at 09:09 by clive
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Wembley Suburban - Routesetting into Camden Jn 24/06/2013 at 09:39 #45973
jc92
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" said:
" said:
Jan said in post #10

Quote:
However, there are one or two LU trains a day in the supplied timetable which are actually scheduled to reverse at Kilburn High Road, presumably either route learners or rusty rail moves.
In the default timetable I did come across T214-J (4DC power) which does just this. It departs StoneBridge LU depot at about 10 PM and terminates at Kilburn to become S214-K, which goes back down the line to return to StoneBridge depot. Presumably a late night train with few passengers. So it seems not all LU trains passing through Queens Park end up joining the Bakerloo line. There may be others with T headcodes in the default TT. Be warned.


A train of that kind in an LT timetable is probably there deliberately as a points tester. In fact it may well be an ecs move - the LT description won't say whether it's carrying passengers or not. Certainly when I had any contact with LT working (I was supervisor at Barking in 1981 - 3, so a lot might have changed) the points tester arrived Eastbound at East Ham in passenger service, tipped out and went back to Aldgate East ecs from where it reversed and ran (still ecs) to Bromley-by-Bow, another reversal and back to Whitechapel where it reversed again using the east end crossover, finally running in passenger service to Barking where it terminated and went in to the depot. (At least I think that was the sequence.) All of this took place starting around 19:30hr Monday - Friday, so by no means always late evening.
the 2011 bakerloo WTT I have also indicates a number of deicing runs between stonebridge park and queens park, which may also account for some of these moves.

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Wembley Suburban - Routesetting into Camden Jn 24/06/2013 at 10:00 #45974
maxand
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Thanks Clive for explaining the innards.

Quote:
track circuit EH (the one between signals 2 and 7
Can the IDs of track circuits be displayed while playing SimSig, or is this only in developer mode?

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Wembley Suburban - Routesetting into Camden Jn 24/06/2013 at 10:37 #45976
BarryM
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" said:
Thanks Clive for explaining the innards.

Quote:
track circuit EH (the one between signals 2 and 7
Can the IDs of track circuits be displayed while playing SimSig, or is this only in developer mode?
WembleySub track circuits can be identified using the Incident Control Panel (F11). The ICP has been added to the latest released sims.

Barry

Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
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Wembley Suburban - Routesetting into Camden Jn 24/06/2013 at 14:49 #45982
maxand
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Quote:
WembleySub track circuits can be identified using the Incident Control Panel (F11)
Thanks, well that's a start, but it's a one-way street. To occupy a TC that you select from the main display panel, you need to know its ID first, but there's no way to find its ID without clicking just about every TC on the F11 Track Circuit list. Unbelievable. Not like r-clicking a signal to get its ID. Have I missed something?

Last edited: 24/06/2013 at 14:52 by maxand
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Wembley Suburban - Routesetting into Camden Jn 24/06/2013 at 14:52 #45983
jc92
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" said:
Quote:
WembleySub track circuits can be identified using the Incident Control Panel (F11)
Thanks, well that's a start, but it seems to be a Catch-22. To occupy a TC that you select from the main display panel, you need to know its ID first, but there's no way to find its ID without clicking just about every TC on the F11 Track Circuit list. Unbelievable. Not like r-clicking a signal to get its ID. Have I missed something?
yes! theres a button (with a symbol along the lines of a cursor, or pointing finger, but i dont have access to a sim atm so cannot confirm.) if you depress that button then left click on a TC, it will automatically highlight it in the list, so you do not need the ID. HTH.

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Wembley Suburban - Routesetting into Camden Jn 24/06/2013 at 15:41 #45986
clive
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Adding labels to track circuits is somewhere way down in the wish list, since it's not trivial (the way I did signal numbers in Euston isn't easy to do in general either; there needs to be a better way).

There's usually logic to the naming. In the case of WembleySub, the naming is generally in running line order. The Up line out of Watford Jn platform 3 is BL, BM, BN, BP, BQ, BV, BW, BX, BY, to BZ at Watford High Street (platform 1 at WJ is BF BG, 2 is BH BJ BK, 4 is BR BS BT). Then you have CB to CX south of Wembley Central, then DA, GH (see below), DH at Stonebridge Park, DQ at Willesden platform 1 (DP and DU are platform 2 and the points), to DZ at Kensal Green, then EA to EJ at Kilburn, then the main box takes over with EUG, EUF, ...

On the Down, the main box ends with EVF at South Hampstead, then we have FE to FZ just north of Willesden, then GA to GF at Stonebridge Park. GG and GH are the depot junction, with GJ GK being 21 road and DD DE 22 road. Carrying on we have GM to GZ approaching Harrow, then HA at the crossover, HB in the platform, HD is the siding points, HE the siding, and HF the facing points on the Down. Then we carry on with HG to HZ at the points leading into platform 1.

The down from Kensal Green Junction is JA and JB, but the remaining odd bits have all kinds of names (e.g. T1216 or WJBF).

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Wembley Suburban - Routesetting into Camden Jn 24/06/2013 at 16:01 #45987
Steamer
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" said:
" said:
Quote:
WembleySub track circuits can be identified using the Incident Control Panel (F11)
Thanks, well that's a start, but it seems to be a Catch-22. To occupy a TC that you select from the main display panel, you need to know its ID first, but there's no way to find its ID without clicking just about every TC on the F11 Track Circuit list. Unbelievable. Not like r-clicking a signal to get its ID. Have I missed something?
yes! theres a button (with a symbol along the lines of a cursor, or pointing finger, but i dont have access to a sim atm so cannot confirm.) if you depress that button then left click on a TC, it will automatically highlight it in the list, so you do not need the ID. HTH.
Just to add that this, and other F11 details, can be found on this Wiki page.

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Wembley Suburban - Routesetting into Camden Jn 24/06/2013 at 18:17 #45990
jc92
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" said:
Adding labels to track circuits is somewhere way down in the wish list, since it's not trivial (the way I did signal numbers in Euston isn't easy to do in general either; there needs to be a better way).
is there any major benefit in doing this? having signal numbers can be handy as they do sometimes need to be identified, eg. "train X stood at signal 121", but TC's never really require identification, as the sim simply flags up a generic track circuit failure message. if if was done in the generic SimSig font, as per the signal numbers on euston, it would also turn the panel into an eyesore, compared to an NX panel where the TC labels are usually in a much smaller less instrusive font.

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Wembley Suburban - Routesetting into Camden Jn 25/06/2013 at 01:57 #46003
maxand
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Thanks BarryM for that tip! That completes the circle. I've edited the Wiki to clarify that, as the procedure of having to remember to press F11, then click the mouse button before selecting a TC seems a bit back-to-front, similar to the alternative method of interposing, where one enters the headcode into a window, then selects the berth that will receive it.

As a corollary, if one does not follow this procedure exactly, one could end up in all sorts of bother, suggesting a little more exception handling might be in order. Selecting TC IDs on the list by clicking them might be intuitive but doesn't work. Also, I can't see any benefit in being able to occupy one or more TCs an unlimited number of times, simply by repeatedly clicking Occupy.

I agree with jc92 that there is no advantage in being able to display TC IDs on the main view panel in SimSig, where the standard large font is the only option. On the other hand, sims like Train Dispatcher use much smaller fonts, so block numbers are much less intrusive; but here, signals do not carry their own ID, so the sim is less prototypical, at least by UK standards. Each to their own.

(Added)
Quote:
but here, signals do not carry their own ID
is intended to read "but in Train Dispatcher, signals are not given an ID". Sorry if this caused confusion

Last edited: 25/06/2013 at 04:06 by maxand
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Wembley Suburban - Routesetting into Camden Jn 25/06/2013 at 02:47 #46004
BarryM
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Max, Signal numbers can be displayed by right clicking the signal. I think the reason for not showing the numbers in the early productions was to stop cluttering the sim. You learn the numbers by continual playing of a sim.
Barry

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