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| Better notification of blocked manually operated LCs 17/01/2015 at 09:00 #67972 | |
maxand
1637 posts |
This thread is a follow-on from questions raised in How do I know when road traffic has cleared Appleford LC? To sum up, manually lowering barriers across a level crossing requires clicking the Lower button which then flashes until the barriers are lowered (blocking road traffic from entering), at which point the Clear button begins to flash. Clicking Clear confirms that the crossing is clear and the barriers are down, enabling a route to be set across the LC. (in some LCs, e.g., Red Cow in Exeter sim, a route may be set without requiring the LC to be clear.) This works well most times, but what happens when something blocks the crossing? This could happen at one of two stages in this sequence: 1) The barriers began to be lowered before the LC was visibly clear of traffic; or 2) While the barriers were being lowered, traffic entered the LC and broke down or otherwise became stuck within the barriers. Clive wrote in the post #8 in the earlier thread: Quote: A blocked crossing is far more likely to be someone who attempted to jump the lights and failed than it is to be a lorry that happened to break down on the crossing before you started to lower it.I don't doubt that; it is probably for that reason that SimSig is structured so that clicking Clear after the barriers are down and receiving a message that the crossing is blocked substitutes for looking at a CCTV camera after lowering the gates only to discover that road traffic is stuck in there. Late Turn wrote in post #7 in that thread: Quote: It would perhaps be slightly more authentic if the "crossing blocked" message could appear at any time during the lowering sequence, along with a 'stop' button (as in reality) to pause the sequence until the crossing becomes clear. I don't think it's appropriate to confirm that the crossing's clear before starting the sequence in any case though - if it's not, for whatever reason, it usually pays to get the yodalarms sounding to induce a sense of urgency into whatever's causing the obstruction, and the sequence can subsequently be stopped if necessary.It would be nice to add a Stop button but this would require reconfiguring every manual LC in every sig, so impractical. I'd like to suggest that in the event of a blockage, the Lower light change to a steady white (as usual, indicating barriers fully down) but the Clear light NOT light up (wink), while simultaneously the "crossing blocked" message appears. This alerts the signaller to the need to raise and lower the barriers again without seeing the "Clear" indication. After all, what does the "Clear" button mean? To me it means the barriers are down AND the crossing is clear of road traffic. It is a substitute for the signaller rechecking the CCTV screen again before setting the route. My other suggestion (which I think I've raised before) is to create a 2-line message including the name of the LC, such as: Stoke Canon LC: Crossing blocked by road traffic Comments appreciated Last edited: 17/01/2015 at 11:43 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Better notification of blocked manually operated LCs 17/01/2015 at 10:10 #67986 | |
Steamer
3922 posts |
I agree with this one- it always feels odd to press the 'clear' button only to be told that the crossing is in fact blocked. Personally, I prefer the set-up in Sheffield, where a white 'CLEAR' message appears next to the controls when the barriers are down and crossing clear, and a flashing red 'BLOCKED' message appears if is isn't. " said: Stoke Canon LC:Is this really necessary? The message appears the instant you press the 'Clear' button, so it should be obvious as to which crossing it applies to. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Better notification of blocked manually operated LCs 17/01/2015 at 10:21 #67988 | |
BarryM
2158 posts |
There is nothing wrong in the way a notification is given now! The sequence of events is as follows: 1. You press the lower button. The lower button starts flashing. 2. If you receive a message that the crossing is blocked. 3. You immediately press the raise button. It starts to flash, whilst the lower button is still flashing. 4. you put back all signals affecting the crossing. 5. When the raise button stops flashing, all lights are extinguished. 6. Try again! A thing to remember is that the barriers do not lower immediately. Barry Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia Log in to reply |
| Better notification of blocked manually operated LCs 17/01/2015 at 10:34 #67989 | |
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Steamer
3922 posts |
" said:You don't get a crossing blocked message until the clear button is pressed, which can only be done after the Lower button stops flashing. You must also do 4 before pressing 'Raise'. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Better notification of blocked manually operated LCs 17/01/2015 at 10:40 #67990 | |
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BarryM
2158 posts |
" said:" said:Possibly right! It is sometime since I had one. Memories??? I did not have any problems raising the barriers!You don't get a crossing blocked message until the clear button is pressed, which can only be done after the Lower button stops flashing. You must also do 4 before pressing 'Raise'. Barry Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia Last edited: 17/01/2015 at 10:42 by BarryM Log in to reply |
| Better notification of blocked manually operated LCs 17/01/2015 at 11:38 #67996 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Steamer wrote: Quote: maxand wrote:In some sims such as Exeter which has a number of manually operated LCs, some close together (e.g., Stoke Canon and Red Cow), I'd find myself lowering barriers simultaneously. Even worse, in the same sim, I might occasionally click Lower for Topsham and, say, Red Cow if both needed lowering for trains arriving simultaneously, even though they are not adjacent to each other. At the worst, if I'd been too busy to watch the message board, I'd have to check each crossing in turn to find to which one the message referred. If in real life the signaller would immediately know which LC was blocked simply by looking at the screens, why shouldn't we be granted the same privilege instead of faffing around going from one LC to another to see which one is blocked? My reason for having a two-line message rather than include all info in a single line (which I don't think has been suggested before) is that width in the Messages box is really at a premium, particularly if you want to see the Overview too. Splitting the message into two lines, separated by a colon, seems a nice easy solution, only needs to be coded once and could be applied to other types of messages. Last edited: 17/01/2015 at 11:49 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Better notification of blocked manually operated LCs 17/01/2015 at 12:02 #67998 | |
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AndyG
1834 posts |
When you press the clear button, you should be checking that the protecting signal clears as the result of your action. You shouldn't be confused as to which LC it is as you can only clear one LC at a time. Generally a signaller should be checking that for each action done, the signalling system responds correctly/as you'd expect eg if a signal doesn't clear as expected, have you lost correspondence somewhere? I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| Better notification of blocked manually operated LCs 17/01/2015 at 12:07 #68001 | |
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Steamer
3922 posts |
" said:Steamer wrote:Because you get the message the instant you click the clear button- there can be no ambiguity as you can only press one clear button at once. Failing that, it should be obvious as, after clicking the button, (a) the signals don't clear (Red Cow) or (b) you can't set the route after pressing the button (Topsham). You can also set the message to be a pop-up box (think it comes under 'General Simulation Message'). "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Better notification of blocked manually operated LCs 17/01/2015 at 20:21 #68026 | |
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Late Turn
696 posts |
As I've commented in the original thread, I think that there's some merit in the suggestion that the state of the crossing should be indicated before the crossing clear button is pressed - probably, as the best compromise, as soon as the barriers have finished lowering. Combined with "clear"/"blocked" text adjacent to the crossing controls (as per Sheffield?), effectively taking the place of the CCTV monitor, this would slightly improve the representation of the signalman's actions when lowering a set of barriers. In reality, of course, the protecting signals will clear when the "crossing clear" button is pressed and the route has been set, whether the crossing is obstructed or not! Log in to reply |
| Better notification of blocked manually operated LCs 17/01/2015 at 23:09 #68029 | |
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clive
2738 posts |
" said:As I've commented in the original thread, I think that there's some merit in the suggestion that the state of the crossing should be indicated before the crossing clear button is pressed - probably, as the best compromise, as soon as the barriers have finished lowering. Combined with "clear"/"blocked" text adjacent to the crossing controls (as per Sheffield?), effectively taking the place of the CCTV monitor, this would slightly improve the representation of the signalman's actions when lowering a set of barriers.The "clear" button in SimSig is intended to represent a combination of looking at the CCTV and pressing the real clear button if it's clear. It seemed a reasonable compromise at the time I was writing the code. I didn't want a "not clear" message to just appear automatically because that didn't represent the signaller actually checking. Quote: We don't allow such things in SimSig by policy. Log in to reply |
| Better notification of blocked manually operated LCs 18/01/2015 at 00:23 #68033 | |
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Late Turn
696 posts |
It still seems a reasonable compromise to me. Any change (other than a fully simulated CCTV monitor!) could surely only represent a small improvement, if that. I certainly don't see that it'd really make much difference to the operation of the sim! I accept (in all seriousness) that the possibility of trains being signalled towards an obstructed crossing isn't something that should be simulated. The potential consequences are always something to consider before pressing the button in reality! Log in to reply |
| Better notification of blocked manually operated LCs 18/01/2015 at 00:33 #68034 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Clive wrote: Quote: The "clear" button in SimSig is intended to represent a combination of looking at the CCTV and pressing the real clear button if it's clear. It seemed a reasonable compromise at the time I was writing the code. I didn't want a "not clear" message to just appear automatically because that didn't represent the signaller actually checking.I'm glad you told us that that, as I've always had some doubt in my mind as to the real meaning of clicking Clear. Up till now, I've been so busy setting a route after clicking Clear that checking the Messages box for "crossing blocked" was not a habit, simply because one tends to assume that a flashing Clear button really does mean that the crossing is clear and then one rushes to set a route across it. However, I am making it a habit now. May I suggest a further enhancement. For those of us (including me) who add sound files to some of the messages (F3 > Options > General > Event settings), I see there is one for Level crossing cleared but not one for Level crossing blocked. May I request that this be added to the list? I would append the sound of a car horn or something else suggesting road traffic (even though the CCTV is soundless) and it would alert me to the need to raise and lower the barriers immediately, confirmed by the message in the box. It would sound as soon as I clicked Clear. Also it would make it immediately clear which level crossing this refers to without the need to modify any message. Last edited: 18/01/2015 at 00:38 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Better notification of blocked manually operated LCs 18/01/2015 at 00:57 #68035 | |
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Muzer
718 posts |
" said:Quote:I always wonder (out of interest, I'm not criticising this!) where the line is drawn here. In the past I always took it to mean that the effects of collisions/accidents/SPADs aren't simulated (in that in situations where trains would collide/pass a signal/derail in real life, the speed just magically drops to 0 or the train "runs out of valid track"), which seems reasonable. But simulating passing blocked LCs doesn't seem to fit into that category, since similar incidents are simulated without issue — for example, it's perfectly possible to talk trains past protecting signals of LCs at danger, or clear signals on UWCs when you've authorised a crossing. As I said, I'm not criticising the policy, I just think that this is a bit of discrepancy.We don't allow such things in SimSig by policy. Log in to reply |
| Better notification of blocked manually operated LCs 18/01/2015 at 01:37 #68036 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2025 posts |
I think people generally read far too deeply into level crossings in SimSig. They work well as they are, and are simple. There doesn't seem much point in changing them. Max, in response to the original query, the best advice I can offer is that when you click the clear button, take a look at it and see that it has gone solid white and stopped flashing. This will mean the crossing is clear. If you are being drawn away somewhere else without having time to do this, slow the sim down. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: AndyG, maxand |
| Better notification of blocked manually operated LCs 18/01/2015 at 09:37 #68040 | |
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Steamer
3922 posts |
" said:The 'Level Crossing Clear' message sounds when the 'Clear' button is available to be pressed, and will sound even if the crossing turns out to be blocked. As I mentioned in post 8, you can set 'General Simualtion Message' to be a pop-up box which would make sure you definitely saw the message. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Better notification of blocked manually operated LCs 18/01/2015 at 12:01 #68044 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
You're right. Quote: The 'Level Crossing Clear' message sounds when the 'Clear' button is available to be pressed,In that case, what we ought to have is a separate sound named "Level Crossing Blocked" (as suggested previously) that only sounds if the Clear button is clicked and there is a crossing block. While I appreciate your suggestion of setting General Simulation Messages to pop-up rather than appearing in the message box, they still need to be closed individually, which becomes a bit of a nuisance. Last edited: 18/01/2015 at 12:04 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Better notification of blocked manually operated LCs 18/01/2015 at 13:31 #68050 | |
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Steamer
3922 posts |
" said:While I appreciate your suggestion of setting General Simulation Messages to pop-up rather than appearing in the message box, they still need to be closed individually, which becomes a bit of a nuisance.Blimey, no pleasing some people is there? They don't get blocked that often! To be honest, I think all we've done is over-analysed (and over-exaggerated) a problem that actually has very simple solutions (Watch signals, watch button, watch message box, pop-up message). Find a technique that works, in time it'll be second nature and you won't notice that you're doing it. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 18/01/2015 at 13:41 by Steamer Log in to reply |
| Better notification of blocked manually operated LCs 20/01/2015 at 00:04 #68128 | |
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peterb
451 posts 
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Max, without wishing to repeat everything that everyone else has already said, I can't help but notice that you've brought this up with us before. Were the responses you got before not good enough?
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| Better notification of blocked manually operated LCs 20/01/2015 at 08:22 #68144 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks peterb, I was looking for that one but couldn't find it. (There seems to be an error in the link you posted. This is the correct one.) I have to admit I was still confused by what was said in the earlier thread, particularly as "Crossing blocked by road vehicle" seems to be a message specific to the Exeter sim. Quote: Were the responses you got before not good enough?As a result of all the feedback in this and the earlier thread, now seems a good time to summarize what seems to me the best solution: - Add a "Level crossing blocked" message that is triggered after clicking Clear, if the crossing is blocked, with the ability to link it to its own sound file and/or popup. Even better, include the name of the LC blocked in, before or after the message. For variety, the message could randomly give a cause (pedestrian/car/truck/bus, etc). Whatever, make the wording of this message consistent across all sims. Alternatively, a popup might contain enough room in its text to specify how to clear the block, though I believe popups are as non-prototypical as messages, as both are substitutes for CCTV screens. By doing it this way the signaller will not be obliged to check Messages each time he clicks Clear and will not see any other unwanted popups. I wish I'd though of this a lot earlier, but didn't really understand how the Clear button functioned back then. The only other solution is to leave things as they are, but the user must discover somehow that (a) clicking Clear won't necessarily clear the crossing, which can be infuriating unless (b) the user is told to check the Messages board each time he clicks for the presence of a "Crossing blocked" message which might even be offscreen by now if Messages is reduced to three lines. Last edited: 20/01/2015 at 10:18 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Better notification of blocked manually operated LCs 20/01/2015 at 09:15 #68148 | |
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Steamer
3922 posts |
Forgive me, but what I don't understand is this logic: "I want an easy, bulletproof method of identifying blocked crossings" "Set the message to a pop-up box" "I don't want to cancel pop-up boxes". [Remember that blocked crossings are fairly rare] Is it really that difficult to watch the button/signals when you press the clear button? I'd suggest we've over-analysed this and turned it into a much bigger problem than it actually is. After all, everyone else appears to have found a method which works and has become second nature. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Better notification of blocked manually operated LCs 20/01/2015 at 09:39 #68150 | |
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TimTamToe
656 posts |
If you click the clear and it still flashes and doesn't instantly go solid white, the crossing is blocked. You don't need to look at the message box
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| Better notification of blocked manually operated LCs 20/01/2015 at 09:45 #68154 | |
postal
5190 posts |
" said:Thanks peterb, I was looking for that one but couldn't find it.Why is all of this necessary when there is an immediately obvious warning that the crossing is blocked because the "clear" roundel continues to flash after the operator tries to acknowledge it? Anything in addition to that is only adding a layer of complexity for the signaller to deal with. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Better notification of blocked manually operated LCs 20/01/2015 at 10:11 #68155 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Quote:Why is all of this necessary when there is an immediately obvious warning that the crossing is blocked because the "clear" roundel continues to flash after the operator tries to acknowledge it?In any similar situation, when one presses a real button or clicks one on a screen and nothing happens, why isn't it always immediately obvious what the cause is and what to do to to fix it? I'm always in favour of reducing FUD as much as possible. Okay, okay, you all know what I propose here and I can't make it any clearer Enough discussion from me at any rate. Last edited: 20/01/2015 at 10:16 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Better notification of blocked manually operated LCs 20/01/2015 at 10:12 #68156 | |
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AndyG
1834 posts |
" said:I have to admit I was still confused by what was said in the earlier thread, particularly as "Crossing blocked by road vehicle" seems to be a message specific to the Exeter sim.The 'crossing blocked' is not specific to any simulation, all the developer can do is alter the probability of its occurrence, or disable it. I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| Better notification of blocked manually operated LCs 20/01/2015 at 10:19 #68158 | |
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AndyG
1834 posts |
" said:Quote:In a real situation, pressing the clear button will always work, the downside being you might have just wiped out the car that was blocking the crossing. The subsequent message will be highlighted with numerous flashing blue lights.Why is all of this necessary when there is an immediately obvious warning that the crossing is blocked because the "clear" roundel continues to flash after the operator tries to acknowledge it?In any similar situation, when one presses a real button or clicks one on a screen and nothing happens, why isn't it always immediately obvious what the cause is and what to do to to fix it? I'm always in favour of reducing FUD as much as possible. I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Forest Pines |