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| Enforced loader versions for sims; loader/sim versions for TTs 24/07/2014 at 22:42 #63109 | |
Muzer
718 posts |
I've been noticing a lot of bug reports recently to which the solution is "update your loader". Wouldn't it be nice if the timetable had a minimum loader and sim version specified so it could complain if yours was too old (so that you know it might cause problems, it probably wouldn't actually stop you trying it) - and a similar thing for sims with the loader version? This is obviously something that wouldn't be immediately useful but would get more useful over time, and would save a lot of bug reports I see on the forum 
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| Enforced loader versions for sims; loader/sim versions for TTs 25/07/2014 at 10:36 #63121 | |
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GoochyB
222 posts |
I guess that would require a checking mechanism within the loader. Would it be easier for the loader to be made to automatically do a background check for updates on starting up, and notify you if you need to update? (Of course, it would need to deal with when there was no connection available, perhaps with a friendly reminder to regularly connect and check for updates!) Last edited: 25/07/2014 at 10:39 by GoochyB Log in to reply |
| Enforced loader versions for sims; loader/sim versions for TTs 25/07/2014 at 11:19 #63122 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
If a timetable is not compatible with the loader then you will get a warning message once the sim has loaded saying "timetable may not be compatible" (or words to that effect).
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| Enforced loader versions for sims; loader/sim versions for TTs 25/07/2014 at 11:33 #63125 | |
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Sacro
1171 posts |
" said:If a timetable is not compatible with the loader then you will get a warning message once the sim has loaded saying "timetable may not be compatible" (or words to that effect).Not will, should. However in this case the Loader doesn't know about UIDs, and also doesn't know of its lack of knowing about UIDs, therefore it can't warn you. Log in to reply |
| Enforced loader versions for sims; loader/sim versions for TTs 25/07/2014 at 11:37 #63126 | |
Steamer
3922 posts |
Noisynoel said:Are you sure? I've just re-installed an old version of the Loader, started Wembley Mainline and got no such warning. There's a compatibility warning if you start a timetable in the wrong era though. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Enforced loader versions for sims; loader/sim versions for TTs 25/07/2014 at 14:57 #63133 | |
Peter Bennet
5360 posts |
It only compares locations, if the timetable has a location in it that's not in the Sim (by era) then it gives a warning. It does not check the timetable against TT paths (the analyser does that) and maybe it should. Neither of these checks are necessarly a sign that the timetable is out of date, just that as currently written some trains have a problem. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Enforced loader versions for sims; loader/sim versions for TTs 25/07/2014 at 18:31 #63142 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
" said:Noisynoel said:That's because there are no issues with the default TT being run on an old version of the loader EXCEPT that the traffic for the RMT calls is with a warning about running on a goods line.Are you sure? I've just re-installed an old version of the Loader, started Wembley Mainline and got no such warning. There's a compatibility warning if you start a timetable in the wrong era though. Noisynoel Log in to reply |
| Enforced loader versions for sims; loader/sim versions for TTs 25/07/2014 at 19:17 #63146 | |
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Jan
889 posts |
And some of the rules not working because old loader versions don't understand UIDs.
Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick. Log in to reply |
| Enforced loader versions for sims; loader/sim versions for TTs 25/07/2014 at 20:34 #63152 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
But at the end of the day why would you want to run it on an old loader?
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| Enforced loader versions for sims; loader/sim versions for TTs 25/07/2014 at 22:44 #63156 | |
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Peter Bennet
5360 posts |
Actually going back to the original question, is it not going to be more likely that the timetable is going to be older than the loader anyway? Timetables are generally issued once with maybe an occasional update in the early days if errors are found. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Enforced loader versions for sims; loader/sim versions for TTs 25/07/2014 at 23:12 #63159 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:Actually going back to the original question, is it not going to be more likely that the timetable is going to be older than the loader anyway? Timetables are generally issued once with maybe an occasional update in the early days if errors are found.The simplest solution to that being that if the proposed "Version Required" header in the timetable is missing, the loader reverts back to the current behaviour. " said: But at the end of the day why would you want to run it on an old loader?People don't necessarily want to - but as has clearly been shown over the last week, the vast majority of people simply aren't aware that their loader version is outdated. Then again, all of this would have been avoided if Wembley ML sim was tied to a minimum version of the loader, as has been done in the past for various updates (I certainly recall Marylebone updates showing up in red due to incompatible loader versions) as Steamer said. It's a very strange argument to say that a sim is compatible even if its default TT is not - after all, apart from the dozen or so potential timetable writers, the majority of users would regard the default TT as an integral part of the sim! Log in to reply |
| Enforced loader versions for sims; loader/sim versions for TTs 26/07/2014 at 08:57 #63163 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
Yes but surely that if a TT is issued on an old loader then the new loader would accommodate it as it would have all the basic functionality of the older one plus more, we wouldn't be doing retrograde steps and taking things away thus breaking the TT
Noisynoel Log in to reply |
| Enforced loader versions for sims; loader/sim versions for TTs 28/07/2014 at 11:57 #63239 | |
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clive
2738 posts |
" said:I think I'd better explain how that works. The simulation data is made of a load of objects, each of which is defined using a number of "keys". For example, when I define a signal I have to write ASP=3 for a 3-aspect signal, ASP=4 for a four-aspect one, ASP=R,S,YY for one that only shows red, shunt, or double yellow, and so on. The .sim file for a simulation contains a list of all the keys that the simulation uses, and the loader checks that list. If it finds anything it doesn't know about, the simulation comes up in red with a warning to update the loader. If we *do* ever take something away from the loader (as has happened once to my memory) then all future loaders will have that key marked as obsolete and, again, the simulation comes up in red but this time with a warning to update the simulation. For things that aren't done with keys, it is possible to define pseudo-keys in the loader and put a special command in the simulation data to say that it needs a loader that supports this pseudo-key. Quote: This is the usual techie-versus-user problem. To a sim author, timetables are different to the sim itself. The sim doesn't need an updated loader to run - it's perfectly compatible with older loaders. It's only the timetable that's got an issue. If Geoff (who did all the UID stuff) had anticipated this issue he could have defined a pseudo-key for "supports UIDs" and make Wembley ML require a loader that supports it. But he didn't, so he didn't. But I'm not at all sure that's the right answer. If I fix a bug in the default timetable for (say) Fenchurch Street by using UIDs, does that mean I need to go back and redefine Fenchurch Street to require UIDs? I don't think so. The default timetable can go in and out of requiring UIDs without affecting the sim itself. I think the right answer is, indeed, to have some way for the loader to test timetables to see if they need features it doesn't support. Since the timetable will have been built on a loader that *does* support the feature, it's not impossible to make it add tags within the timetable that can be checked. But, unlike the keys in sim data, it isn't at all obvious what features need to be detected like this. Log in to reply |