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| What's New tab for Loader 01/09/2014 at 12:55 #64288 | |
maxand
1637 posts |
Just got automatically upgraded to SimSig Loader v4.1.2 when I checked for updates. As usual, no mention of what was changed since the previous version, presumably 4.1.1, despite the ominous warning that some "incompatibilities" may arise when playing saved games. That much of SimSig is freeware does not excuse its developers from keeping us informed of significant changes to their programs, in this case the Loader. It really gets up my nose. The first casualty in rushed development is always documentation. Look, if you're too busy or whatever to spend a few minutes creating a separate version history, how about adding a "Version History" or "What's New" tab to the "About" section of the Loader so we can see this in-game without having to interrupt it to dash off to the website when something behaves otherwise than expected? Just as some sim developers or TT writers squirrel away their info within the actual sim/TT under "Description" or "General", so it might help to include latest changes with the current Loader. Log in to reply |
| What's New tab for Loader 01/09/2014 at 13:25 #64289 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
If you don't like it then don't upgraded your loader, stick with what you know!!!
Noisynoel Log in to reply The following users said thank you: DriverCurran, Javelin395, JamesN |
| What's New tab for Loader 01/09/2014 at 14:29 #64290 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Ha ha, Noisy, thought you'd bite. :laugh: Your irrelevant replies are always a source of amusement. Last edited: 01/09/2014 at 14:30 by maxand Log in to reply |
| What's New tab for Loader 01/09/2014 at 15:39 #64291 | |
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GW43125
495 posts |
" said:Ha ha, Noisy, thought you'd bite. :laugh:Maxand, I don't think Noisynoel was joking... that's exactly what I would have said if you'd have said that personally. Whilst it is a possible suggestion, which I like the idea of, I would personally have worded it differently. I would however +1 this idea, but only if the developers have time to do so without it subtracting time from their simulation work. In fact, I even believe that most devs do a forum post about it when it isn't obvious. Apologies if that post is a bit verbose, but I feel it was the best way to convey the message. Mods feel free to edit/remove should you feel it necessary. Jamie. Log in to reply |
| What's New tab for Loader 01/09/2014 at 18:17 #64293 | |
belly buster
368 posts |
" said:Great to see a new version of the loader.fyp Log in to reply The following users said thank you: John, lazzer, JamesN |
| What's New tab for Loader 01/09/2014 at 19:24 #64297 | |
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JamesN
1575 posts |
Various minor big fixes, nothing 'new' to document so nothing was documented. As evidenced previously when major new features are introduced they are at least mentioned or outlined.
Last edited: 01/09/2014 at 19:29 by JamesN Log in to reply |
| What's New tab for Loader 01/09/2014 at 19:35 #64299 | |
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sloppyjag
480 posts |
" said:Various minor big fixesIs that the same as major small fixes?  (Only joking - I know what you meant.  )
Planotransitophobic! Log in to reply |
| What's New tab for Loader 01/09/2014 at 20:02 #64302 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
I'm glad you post these things for your amusement, at least we now know that we're wasting our time posting helpful tips and replies, still at least it means I'll have more time to write the timetable notes so you know what I've changed in any of the timetables!
Noisynoel Log in to reply |
| What's New tab for Loader 01/09/2014 at 20:32 #64307 | |
Peter Bennet
5360 posts |
" said:Ha ha, Noisy, thought you'd bite. :laugh:Not a particularly helpful comment, please don't wind up the other forum members. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| What's New tab for Loader 02/09/2014 at 05:05 #64315 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Noisynoel wrote: Quote: If you don't like it then don't upgrade your loader, stick with what you know!!!And how am I supposed to downgrade my loader when upgrades are automatic? (Apart from making the effort to find and save loader.exe before hitting "Check for updates".) SimSig doesn't make reversion easy. Anyway, upgrades are supposed to be improvements - who'd want to revert? belly buster I think quoted me from an earlier thread, since which nothing has been done in this direction. At least JamesN has managed to shed some light on what's changed: Quote: Various minor bug fixes, nothing 'new' to document so nothing was documented.That's all we really need to know in this instance, but we do need to know it rather than assume it. If you need an example of a product with a mannerly changelog (version history), one of my favourites is Ken Carlino's TwistedBrush Pro Studio, found on the Company News page of the Pixarra website. There is a separate thread for each minor version change, of which the first post lists all changes in sufficient detail as well as a link to the download page. Previous versions are all available too. IMO any added detail helps to pinpoint new bugs in the fresh version, so should be welcome. We should not be kept in the dark about what has changed. DSeaWall wrote: Quote: I would however +1 this idea, but only if the developers have time to do so without it subtracting time from their simulation work. IMO these two tasks are not mutually exclusive but should be complementary. An outsider might be tempted to think that either the devs don't bother keeping their own changelogs as they progress, or they don't consider end users important or intelligent enough to share this information with them. My reason for starting this thread was to suggest that, to make it easier for the devs, the changelog should be incorporated into the Loader as an extra tab, though an exclusive forum thread is preferable. The current thread for v4.1 runs to 5 pages already, indicating the desirability of creating a new thread for each subversion to avoid having to trawl through one long thread. Last edited: 02/09/2014 at 05:13 by maxand Log in to reply |
| What's New tab for Loader 02/09/2014 at 05:20 #64316 | |
BarryM
2158 posts |
Upgrades are not Automatic!
Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Steamer |
| What's New tab for Loader 02/09/2014 at 05:39 #64317 | |
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GW43125
495 posts |
I shall in that case ask a devs what he thinks when I next see him (if he hasn't already read this...) Jamie. Log in to reply |
| What's New tab for Loader 02/09/2014 at 07:35 #64319 | |
Steamer
3922 posts |
" said:Noisynoel wrote:You can refuse all updates by pressing 'close' on any page up to and including the file list page. You can refuse the Loader specifically by unticking it on the file list. If you're halfway through a game you particularly want to finish, it might be better to wait until you've finished it before checking for updates to avoid the risk of compatibility issues. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| What's New tab for Loader 02/09/2014 at 11:25 #64320 | |
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JamesN
1575 posts |
For the record, there is a changelog for loader and it is accesible to those that need access to it. As the majority of changes to the loader are trivial (that in a roundabout way is the point of seperating the core code and sim data afterall!) it's generally not worth publishing it. However Max if you must have every little detail: " said: SimSig core code - 4.1.2 (Released 2014-07-11) [ View Issues ] Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| What's New tab for Loader 02/09/2014 at 11:59 #64321 | |
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Muzer
718 posts |
" said:For the record, there is a changelog for loader and it is accesible to those that need access to it. As the majority of changes to the loader are trivial (that in a roundabout way is the point of seperating the core code and sim data afterall!) it's generally not worth publishing it. However Max if you must have every little detail: To be fair, as is sometimes the case, despite phrasing it horrifically, in my opinion maxand does have a point. Making changelogs generally available for things is, in my opinion, A Good Thing™. This means that anyone who finds a bug could more easily hazard a guess as to which change might have caused it, and anyone who is bored (and not an official tester) can start looking for bugs related to changes if they really want to, among other things. Though admittedly it's not quite as useful for the end-user as it could be when older versions are harder to access (regression tests are impossible). Anyway, just my opinion, I don't really mind either way. I just think there's no reason *not* to release a changelog. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| What's New tab for Loader 02/09/2014 at 12:56 #64322 | |
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clive
2738 posts |
" said:For the record, I'm sympathetic to a changelog appearing somewhere, if only on this forum. But it's not free, so be careful what you wish for. The reason *not* to is that it requires someone to pull the information together and post it, then be prepared to answer questions about it. That's all overhead. But I'm not sure if the summary that JamesN wrote is really sufficient. If it isn't, then someone needs to go through the individual issues and try to work out what should and shouldn't be said in public (it's not acceptable to just publish the entire bug report and fix history, since this may mention stuff that shouldn't be public). For example, it's not clear from the that 11289 happens to be the cause of a major problem that could be visible to anyone playing SimSig while, on the other hand, 11402 only affects specific sims in specific circumstances, and can be worked around by timetable writers. Since I worked on these two, I can put together a summary for them. But I wouldn't like to do that more generally. Log in to reply |
| What's New tab for Loader 02/09/2014 at 12:59 #64323 | |
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clive
2738 posts |
Okay, here's a bit more about 11289. The original report: Quote: The problem has been located and fixed. The freeze was because the code enters an infinite loop in this situation. I can't say what loader version it was introduced in without digging through a load of history, but I suspect it was the same time as UIDs were added. It turns out that the problem is not related to UIDs; it happens whenever the next working doesn't exist in the timetable. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: BarryM |
| What's New tab for Loader 02/09/2014 at 13:07 #64324 | |
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clive
2738 posts |
And now 11402. The original report (by me): Quote: At this point I suspect people will be wondering what on earth any of that means. Any sim developer would know, but I doubt anyone else. What this is to do with is differential and enhanced speed limits for tracks. Where a piece of track has a speed limit of 40/60, there will be a bit of sim data saying "MSF=40; MSP=60;". If there's a differential speed of 75 for HSTs, that's indicated by writing "MSF=40; MSP=60; MSD=75; TCD=HST;". The last bit ties the differential speed to the "HST" speed class in the train's timetable. Now it might be that a differential limit applies to two types of train; say EMUs and HSTs. Then the last bit would be written as "TCD=EMU,HST;" and a train with either (or both) of these ticked will get the differential limit. A completely unrelated change to the code (again, I'd have to dig back to find out when) caused this to be misinterpreted as "TCD=HST;"; that is, only the last item in the list of classes got looked at. So trains with EMU ticked but not HST will only run at 60, not at 75. The workaround, obviously, is to tell people to tick HST for all EMUs. But that's not a great answer and of course the bug needed fixing. And I have indeed fixed it. Log in to reply |
| What's New tab for Loader 02/09/2014 at 13:11 #64325 | |
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clive
2738 posts |
" said:Note that compatibility issues are pretty rare. We go to a lot of effort to ensure that changes are upwards compatible though, particularly with saved games, we can't guarantee it. But don't be scared of them. Log in to reply |
| What's New tab for Loader 02/09/2014 at 14:42 #64327 | |
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Peter Bennet
5360 posts |
Most of my sims have no change log report. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| What's New tab for Loader 02/09/2014 at 17:07 #64333 | |
GeoffM
6282 posts |
A version history / change log for the Loader was supposed to happen but I forgot. Simple as that. Most of my sims do have a version history in the manual (ie wiki). Mostly I take these out of the Mantis change log, like JamesN posted, but do try to expand the title a little. We don't need War & Peace, just a single sentence describing the issue would do. Maxand, as others have pointed out, the updates are not automatic by any means (unless you set up a script/macro to do it?!). It takes 4 mouse button clicks by my count. Which is 3-4 clicks too many for some people, thus proving the point you cannot please all the people all of the time. 
SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following users said thank you: BarryM, DriverCurran, GoochyB |
| What's New tab for Loader 03/09/2014 at 08:15 #64347 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks JamesN and Clive for posting this level of detail, which I always appreciate even if I don't fully understand it all. When I become really annoyed by something that doesn't appear to work as it should, I find myself asking "Is it something I'm doing wrong or is it a known bug?" If I discover it's already a documented bug, then I generally stop worrying and wait for a fix or look for a workaround. Including the bug's unique ID gives me something to search on, too. Searching the forum itself is too often a hit-and-miss affair. If there are some things in a complete bugfix report that should remain confidential, so be it. Ideally a changelog suitable for end user release should contain only the most important issues, phrased in plain English so non-technical users can understand. As I said earlier, I like Ken Carlino's approach; I'm sure it covers only the most important issues but does it in a user-friendly way. It's also beneficial to maintain a list of bugs that haven't yet been resolved, as is done on many of the SourceForge pages. Yes, I appreciate that all this takes time, but on the other hand issues raised in the forum can be resolved faster by referring the poster to a particular bug ID. Log in to reply |
| What's New tab for Loader 03/09/2014 at 11:31 #64352 | |
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Muzer
718 posts |
" said:It's also beneficial to maintain a list of bugs that haven't yet been resolved, as is done on many of the SourceForge pages. Yes, I appreciate that all this takes time, but on the other hand issues raised in the forum can be resolved faster by referring the poster to a particular bug ID.I'm pretty sure they do have an issue tracker that does this, but obviously not public. Log in to reply |
| What's New tab for Loader 03/09/2014 at 11:42 #64355 | |
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Steamer
3922 posts |
" said:" said:There are also sections in simulations and on the main Loader page for known issues.It's also beneficial to maintain a list of bugs that haven't yet been resolved, as is done on many of the SourceForge pages. Yes, I appreciate that all this takes time, but on the other hand issues raised in the forum can be resolved faster by referring the poster to a particular bug ID.I'm pretty sure they do have an issue tracker that does this, but obviously not public. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| What's New tab for Loader 03/09/2014 at 11:42 #64356 | |
KymriskaDraken
963 posts |
" said:" said:Indeed, and I think that quite a few of the people with access to it post the tracking number on the bug report on the forum so we can at least see that it's been logged.It's also beneficial to maintain a list of bugs that haven't yet been resolved, as is done on many of the SourceForge pages. Yes, I appreciate that all this takes time, but on the other hand issues raised in the forum can be resolved faster by referring the poster to a particular bug ID.I'm pretty sure they do have an issue tracker that does this, but obviously not public. Log in to reply |