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| Re: Macros to make it easier 03/01/2012 at 14:23 #26731 | |
GeoffM
6282 posts 
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" said:It's quite possible that the developers may see the light and build some of these functions into the next major releaseIf you're referring specifically to macros then I see no reason why I should take time away from simulation and rail-oriented development to handle one particular user's personal preference. Who knows what the next "better idea" you have is, which renders the previous one obsolete and thus the development time wasted? If that is not what you're referring to then I fail to see how we haven't "seen the light" when SimSig is continually improving - including incorporating a couple of your ideas. SimSig Boss Last edited: 03/01/2012 at 14:23 by GeoffM Log in to reply The following users said thank you: andyb0607, TimTamToe, Meld, delticfan, postal, Sam Tugwell, officer dibble, ipswich, northroad, BarryM, GoochyB |
| Re: Macros to make it easier 03/01/2012 at 17:53 #26746 | |
postal
5190 posts |
" said:Not a dig at anyone personally despite what some people would like to think. There were a number of posts before mine (which was #16) from both sides of the house. Having previously added my arrogant and ignorant input to it all, I realise that I now really am bored with both sides of that cultural difference monopolising this Forum and detracting from its friendliness, helpfulness and aid to those who are having problems in running a sim. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 03/01/2012 at 21:32 by postal Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Meld, officer dibble, delticfan, Sam Tugwell, GoochyB, BarryM |
| Re: Macros to make it easier 03/01/2012 at 18:46 #26749 | |
delticfan
476 posts |
I have to agree with you John. I enjoy running sims at 'face value' and much of the technical suggestions for 'improvements' on this and other threads go way over my head. I prefer to use what is available to do the job and if in doubt I ask, appreciating all the help I've had over the past months. Mal. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: AndyG, officer dibble, Sam Tugwell, postal, Meld |
| Re: Macros to make it easier 03/01/2012 at 18:59 #26752 | |
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Sam Tugwell
493 posts |
Mal said:I have to agree with you John.Im in the same boat as you Mal and John. I much prefer to use the standard features of a sim and most of the technological "improvements" that have been suggested have passed me by. Its especially good to run an area local to me, with Exeter providing many hours of enjoyment. This way, I can use some of the route knowledge I have to signal trains accordingly. What I suggest Max, is that you have a closer look some of the sims, Gloucester being a good one, and look for some little reminders that may help you. An example being, If a Cross Country (normally 1VXX Headcode in a modern TT) leaves Cheltenham Spa, it means that it will be around 5 or so minutes until it reaches the next timing point of Barnwood Junction. As a train leaves Cheltenham Spa, It would make sense to route it over the junctions at Barnwood and Gloucester Yard in order to keep the speed of said train at a decent level. If I remember rightly, Gloucester displays a reminder for a train approaching Old Ends Crossing automatically. If you do this for larger sims, it often becomes far easier to play. Thats my view anyway. I had a good look around Saltley immediately after I downloaded it to get a grasp of what lines are electrified etc. Doing this would mean that there would be less need for these "macros" and SimSig can stay as a program that provides a realistic and superb view of British Signalling. "Signalman Exeter" Log in to reply The following users said thank you: delticfan, Meld |
| Re: Macros to make it easier 03/01/2012 at 21:13 #26757 | |
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delticfan
476 posts |
" said:Mal said:Exactly Sam, I have so far picked sims of which I know the area (Stafford, Pboro, Exeter, Cambridge). I like the feel of Saltley as I worked at New Street for some years but it's taking a while to get my head round it. I won't say I'm for the 'easy life' but it's so rewarding when I have a stab at something and it finally makes sense.I have to agree with you John.Im in the same boat as you Mal and John. I much prefer to use the standard features of a sim and most of the technological "improvements" that have been suggested have passed me by. Its especially good to run an area local to me, with Exeter providing many hours of enjoyment. This way, I can use some of the route knowledge I have to signal trains accordingly. Cheers. Mal. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Sam Tugwell, Meld |
| Re: Macros to make it easier 03/01/2012 at 22:42 #26759 | |
BarryM
2158 posts |
" said:" said:Maxand,It's quite possible that the developers may see the light and build some of these functions into the next major releaseIf you're referring specifically to macros then I see no reason why I should take time away from simulation and rail-oriented development to handle one particular user's personal preference. Who knows what the next "better idea" you have is, which renders the previous one obsolete and thus the development time wasted? If that is not what you're referring to then I fail to see how we haven't "seen the light" when SimSig is continually improving - including incorporating a couple of your ideas. Enough is enough! The majority of members here love the way as it is. It works fine. It's fun (if you understand it). What you see is what is presented to the signaller. Thats the way it is. There is no need for macros. The timetable provides all the information required to operate the work station. As I have said before, Simsig is a rail oriented BR signalling simulation created for those deeply interested and understand signalling principles. Unfortunately, you do not understand them and the way it works. You need to go and visit a working control station (VR Metrol where you live) and see what is involved, then come back and try a simple sim like Southampton or Waterloo. Barry An Aussie Battler Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Noisynoel, Meld, ipswich, Hooverman, AndyG, delticfan, postal, crompton, Sam Tugwell |
| Re: Macros to make it easier 03/01/2012 at 23:59 #26764 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks all for your feedback. Signalhunter: Quote: I don't know about using these Macros but, just reading about them (here on the Forum), seems to be harder than what I already do. I agree it's a bit of a conceptual leap from changing the way you play a sim to fit in with the developer's interface, to suddenly feeling empowered to do something about that irritable little feature that annoys you every time you play. I learned AHK (there are other macro languages such as AutoIT) over a year ago to cope with another application, much worse designed, then realized, after posting several suggestions for feature improvements here, that I could use this ability to modify my own interaction with SimSig, hence these macros. It's really about how much one wants to be in control of one's playing environment, and whether one finds simple programming pleasurable. It all takes time and a little effort, so I am not at all dismayed by the reluctance of most people here to adopt these scripts or learn a bit of macro language. Just as in other things, one can't become an expert overnight. I offer these macros to those few interested enough to look further into them. The methods in their code can be implemented in other programming languages, of course. Me: Quote: It's quite possible that the developers may see the light and build some of these functions into the next major release GeoffM: Quote: If you're referring specifically to macros then I see no reason why I should take time away from simulation and rail-oriented development to handle one particular user's personal preference. Who knows what the next "better idea" you have is, which renders the previous one obsolete and thus the development time wasted? If that is not what you're referring to then I fail to see how we haven't "seen the light" when SimSig is continually improving - including incorporating a couple of your ideas. Geoff, you're doing a great job here already as I'm sure we all agree. More than that, I greatly appreciate your willingness to examine all suggestions for further improvement put to you and not just by me. I'm also very pleased to read you will be adopting a couple of my ideas; when I encounter them, I will happily delete the equivalent macros from my script. Your job isn't an easy one. Anyone sitting in the developer's seat has a difficult time evaluating the real benefit of making such a change and deciding whether to allocate resources to implement it, so I don't blame you for feeling the way you do about idiosyncratic suggestions coming from individuals. A great advantage of macros is that they give one a chance to have one's cake and eat it too. Those who feel macros are too much of an effort to make can ignore them safely. Others can try them out to see whether they make a difference, maybe refine them still further. It did take a little rethinking to learn their new ways, but now I wouldn't look back; in fact, I am beginning to forget what the orthodox commands are for some of them. I will certainly see if any more "great ideas" are testable in a macro before posting them as Feature Suggestions. Sharing macros with you all enables allows others to try them out and report whether they think it is a good idea that should be adopted. No suggestion from any one person should be added to the developers' to-do list; others should have to clamour for it too. Unsurprisingly the vociferous majority of forum members are conservative. BarryM: Quote: As I have said before, Simsig is a rail oriented BR signalling simulation created for those deeply interested and understand signalling principles. Unfortunately, you do not understand them and the way it works. You need to go and visit a working control station (VR Metrol where you live) and see what is involved, then come back and try a simple sim like Southampton or Waterloo. Although I admit I don't fully understand BR signalling yet, it is important to draw a distinction between signalling principles and interfacing with SimSig. None of my macros change SimSig's signalling logic. How can they? Let me put it to you another way. Just suppose that, in the next update to SimSig, all the shortcuts in my macros were found to be incorporated. You know what? You and the rest of the conservatives would accept them meekly and change your work habits without a murmur. If it comes from God, it has to be good. Then there would be no more talk about macros and I would throw my script away.
Last edited: 04/01/2012 at 09:01 by maxand Reason: changed "others have to clamour" to "others should have to clamour" Log in to reply |
| Re: Macros to make it easier 04/01/2012 at 00:26 #26765 | |
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postal
5190 posts |
" said:tecchies vs users again.Please can we stop this ever more sterile debate. I would guess from reading this thread (and a number of other threads that have gone before) that "the vociferous minority" do not want the same things from SimSig that some others do. I would take issue with the idea of a "vociferous minority" does not have some sort of "democratic" authority as there are probably only a handful that could be characterised in the category yet there have been 238 more clicks to say that Maxand is having a negative effect on the Karma of the Forum than the other view. I can only remember one score with more negative points. That is not to advance the cause that SimSig should not change and move forward (which it certainly has over the time that I have been using the software). However, when it is clear that someone has very definite ideas (based on his or her proclaimed advantage as a subject matter expert on GUI design) which does not conform with what most people posting on the Forum want to see, then is it not a time for common sense to prevail, for losses to be cut and for shovels to be handed up from the bottom of the hole instead of delving a further spit-length down. Please can we stop critical postings followed by self-justifications and try and get the Forum back to the sort of friendly and helpful place it was until quite recently. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Sam Tugwell, sloppyjag, ipswich, delticfan, officer dibble, Noisynoel, BarryM, Meld, agilchrist |
| Re: Macros to make it easier 04/01/2012 at 01:59 #26769 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
postal, this thread is for people interested in what these macros have to offer. Obviously you are not one of them, but others are. No one's forcing you to read this thread. There's nothing offensive about the fact that most members who post frequently in this forum (the vociferous minority) happen to be conservative. That's just the way things are, in this and most other forums. It only takes a small handful of people with a grudge and a penchant for clicking the Smite button to create a false impression that someone is universally disliked. Water off a duck's back. (added) However, I agree with you that this discussion is getting a little off-topic. By now, all viewpoints pro and con the use of macros seem to have been expressed. From now on, let's confine this thread to what more can be done through macros, along with code examples. Last edited: 04/01/2012 at 02:14 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Macros to make it easier 04/01/2012 at 02:12 #26770 | |
agilchrist
258 posts |
Maxand, I do agree with you this topic is for those interested in macros, however you seem to want to crush decent when anybody offers their opinion, and you often belittle their comments and you dont seem to give in until they relent or give in to seeing it your way. Whilst any forum is open for people to say what they want, there is a fine line between having a discussion and forcing your point of view forward, having read some of your posts in the past I do find that it becomes more than a discussion. Please allow others to have their say without going back on what sometimes seems to be an attack. As you say your not overly familiar with British signalling concepts, and I have to admit they are definitely different to those in Australia, whilst I am not the font of all British knowledge I could help enlighten you, I am in Sydney I would be more than happy to meet you and have a discussion about things, just PM me, I am staying right next to Central station and I am sure you said you were in Sydney as well so if your free let me know. Blessed are the true believers, for only they shall walk the Path, and they shall be welcomed unto the realm of the Ori and made as one with Them. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: postal, Sam Tugwell, AndyG, BarryM |
| Re: Macros to make it easier 04/01/2012 at 02:21 #26771 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
thanks agilchrist. If I give the impression of trying to force my view forward at times, I apologize unreservedly. Maybe it's just me. Thanks for your offer. I will PM you on this. Log in to reply |
| Re: Macros to make it easier 04/01/2012 at 08:14 #26775 | |
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clive
2738 posts |
" said:" said:I don't think Max is suggesting we should add macros to SimSig; rather, that we might approve enough of some of the features that he's invented macros for that we decide to include them in the core code. That's not an unreasonable comment - providing macros lets people try out the idea and see whether they like it before you and I have to cut a line of code.It's quite possible that the developers may see the light and build some of these functions into the next major releaseIf you're referring specifically to macros then I see no reason why I should take time away from simulation and rail-oriented development to handle one particular user's personal preference. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Macros to make it easier 04/01/2012 at 10:03 #26781 | |
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postal
5190 posts |
" said:Provided you can live with that two-edged sword, I would be very pleased for the Forum and very proud of your restraint. I do hope I can be equally grown-up! “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 04/01/2012 at 10:06 by postal Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Macros to make it easier 04/01/2012 at 12:13 #26792 | |
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Hooverman
306 posts |
I don't know whether the developers could or even should make a two tier SimSig, where one layer is as real to the UK signalling as possible and there is lower level that is dumbed down into a game format. But I for one as a NR signaller like the real lifelike feel of SimSig without all the bells and whistles on it. I like playing the ASC where I work with my inside knowledge, but even more so like playing areas I don't know, with all the challenges that it brings. I know where I work apart from the normal rules & regs, special box instructions. The only help we get to do our job is paper simpliers, with specially weekend ones printed out. Our panels are littered with post it notes, hand written notes, emails with all types of short to long term alterations to equipment on them, as well as any other useful info. We haven't even got reliable clocks as the three types of clocks (panel clocks, touch screen telephone & CSR) we have don't tell the same time and none of them agree with trust time. We have to share SSF machines 4 per nine panels and if we need a trust schedule then the shift manager has to print them out for us. So in some ways SimSig already provides more info than what we get in the real world. I like the level that Geoff and the sim developers have struck. It works well with just the right level of complexity. If it evolves for the greater good then thumbs up all the way, just hope it stays true to it's principles and stays as close to the real thing as possible. Regards Darren Log in to reply The following users said thank you: maxand, wain77, Prof Jolly, GoochyB |
| Re: Macros to make it easier 05/01/2012 at 12:55 #26841 | |
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Hooverman
306 posts |
Oops SSF should of read CCF not sure how that one slipped through
Last edited: 05/01/2012 at 18:33 by Hooverman Log in to reply |
| Re: Macros to make it easier 06/01/2012 at 12:58 #26855 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks Darren (dabbadaz) for the insight into the life of a real NR signaller. CSR = Cab Secure Radio. CCF = "Control Centre of the Future", actually nothing futuristic about it since according to my reading it seems to have been around now for close to 10 years, and before that was known as P2. Pic here. I can't find a better screenshot than this, but if the panel needs to be covered with sticky notes, SimSig would be way ahead of this. I do like the differently coloured train IDs. Do the train describers move with the train as they do in SimSig, or are they fixed as in one of the older wall display boards with lots of little lights for TCs? Also it seems that the colour scheme is based on whether the train is on time or delayed. I think that would be a great feature to incorporate into SimSig. You also said: Quote: We have to share CCF machines 4 per nine panels Did you mean there are four of you in a room, each with a workstation capable of selecting between 9 panels, so you each control approximately 2 panels? If this is the case, with no overview display, that would bring your workload down to manageable proportions since you only have to manage two panels (Views in SimSig), whereas the average sim (with exceptions) stretches across at least 4 panels. While researching the meaning of CCF (must add it to Wiki glossary) I came across this pic of Westcad, looking very much like SimSig. Forum page linking to this. With four (actually 5) large screens you don't need an overview, and with all those extra little red and green function keys, it's no wonder you don't need macros to help you get throught it! Last edited: 06/01/2012 at 13:06 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Macros to make it easier 06/01/2012 at 13:06 #26856 | |
Peter Bennet
5360 posts |
" said:Try running any ARS enabled SimSig Sim and make sure the relavant option (f3) is set to "delay". Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Macros to make it easier 06/01/2012 at 13:38 #26857 | |
Steamer
3922 posts |
Max, to the best of my knowledge, CCF isn't a type of control system- it just repeats the train describer berths and signal aspects at the actual signalbox, and compares the berth the TD is in to the one it should be in if it's on time, and changes the colour accordingly, and is displayed on a VDU. It's also used by TOC Controls so they know how the trains are running, and make any amendments to schedules if necessary. I think dabbadaz means that there are 9 physical panels at his signalbox, where trains are controlled from (so 9 signallers, presumably), and they have to share 4 CCF machines between them. " said: If this is the case, with no overview display, that would bring your workload down to manageable proportions since you only have to manage two panels (Views in SimSig), whereas the average sim (with exceptions) stretches across at least 4 panels.Remember real life signallers have to do more than the SimSig player does- for example, phone calls take much longer, since they're verbal and have to be repeated back. Not to mention liasing with Control over late running/failures. There are plenty of "exceptions": Royston, Drain, Southampton, Westbury, Gloucester, Waterloo, Wembley Suburban, Liverpool Street, Brighton, Oxted, Euston and Liverpool Lime Street. Not to mention the ARS boxes, where you can control as much, or as little, as you want: Waterloo, Liverpool Street, Edinburgh, Peterborough and SwinDid. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 06/01/2012 at 13:49 by Steamer Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Macros to make it easier 06/01/2012 at 16:19 #26860 | |
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kbarber
1712 posts |
I believe CCF was originally intended to be part of the signalling control system when it was developed by British Rail (it's actually a good more than 10 years old, like SSI and ARS and IECC it came from the Technical Centre at Derby). ARS can only regulate over quite a small area. If you look at the number of separately-controllable ARS sub-areas somewhere like Liverpool St or Waterloo you'll see what I mean. ARS will regulate extremely well within its little domain but acts pretty much independently of others. Hence the reality that it can, on occasion, be more trouble than it's worth. CCF was intended to act over a much larger area and co-ordinate ARS areas ARS for ARSs if you like. It also had facilities required by controllers (I've written here http://www.SimSig.co.uk/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=14&id=23857&limit=10&limitstart=10&Itemid=145#23885 on Control) to make high-level co-ordination easier. With privatisation, all that development stopped and CCF became basically a delay recording & information giving device. Oh well... Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Macros to make it easier 06/01/2012 at 16:25 #26861 | |
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GeoffM
6282 posts
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" said:I believe CCF was originally intended to be part of the signalling control system when it was developed by British Rail (it's actually a good more than 10 years old, like SSI and ARS and IECC it came from the Technical Centre at Derby).Hence Traffic Management System, out for the bidding as we speak. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Re: Macros to make it easier 06/01/2012 at 18:19 #26864 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
" said:Thanks Darren (dabbadaz) for the insight into the life of a real NR signaller. CSR = Cab Secure Radio. CCF = "Control Centre of the Future", actually nothing futuristic about it since according to my reading it seems to have been around now for close to 10 years, and before that was known as P2. Pic here. I can't find a better screenshot than this, but if the panel needs to be covered with sticky notes, SimSig would be way ahead of this.Actually P2 and CCF are two completley seperate systems that basically carry out the same function. CCF is primarily a Network Rail tools that some TOC's buy into, whilst others use P2 which is alot older. Both have advantages and disadvantages and maybe one day somone will take the best bits from each and make something that is more functional than pretty. Noisynoel Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Macros to make it easier 06/01/2012 at 18:29 #26865 | |
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Hooverman
306 posts |
Thanks Steamer, that was the point I was trying to make, is that we have nine signallers/panels and we have to fight over using the four CCF machines for information. With that in mind you can garrantee that when you want to use it because of late running or to find out a trains route, that your colleague is using it for the same reason for another train on another map area. Not good when trains are pathed at 30sec to 1min intervals at our busier junctions. But the main point is that as a whole, we are not provided with lots of information or technology short cuts to aid us in doing our job. It is all learnt as we learn and pass out for our panels and retained inside our heads, or just written down on post it notes! Ragards Darren Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Macros to make it easier 06/01/2012 at 23:11 #26877 | |
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Steamer
3922 posts |
" said:Thanks Steamer, that was the point I was trying to make, is that we have nine signallers/panels and we have to fight over using the four CCF machines for information.So does your box not have TD berths if you have to keep referencing the CCF? "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Re: Macros to make it easier 06/01/2012 at 23:31 #26879 | |
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Hooverman
306 posts |
Yeah we have TD berths. The main use of CCF is to see how late a train is running, or if it is a special what lines/platforms it's booked on and timings.
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Steamer |
| Re: Macros to make it easier 07/01/2012 at 04:56 #26885 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Darren said: Quote: we have to fight over using the four CCF machines for informationThank heavens I don't have to fight anyone else to play SimSig on my PC! Thanks to you and everyone else who responded, also for correcting my mistake that P2 evolved into CCF. Last edited: 07/01/2012 at 04:58 by maxand Log in to reply |
