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| Re: Please explain timetable format 20/02/2012 at 08:28 #29712 | |
Late Turn
696 posts |
" said:Even specifying a stop period, e.g., a 12:30 d 12/34, if the train arrived before 12:30 or any time up to 12:34 it was not held at the signal until 12:34, it simply continued and passed through. Thus I can't see any value in writing it like this. I would have thought that if a train is going to pass, then writing it a --:-- d 12/34 or a 12/34 d 12/34 would be the way to go. So there's still doubt in my mind as to what writing a colon format in the Arr column followed by a slash format in the Dep column achieves. Are there any sims in which this results in a train being held or actually stopping for the minimum dwell period? No - again in this case, the arrival time does nothing to alter the train's behaviour. However, it can provide useful information to you. Take the example of a freight train booked to go into a loop somewhere - in reality, it might be booked to stop there from 12:16 - 12:34 for example. The arrival time can help you to regulate the freight before it gets to the loop - by using the planned section times (subtracting any allowances if appropriate), you can project its progress relative to any following (faster) trains, and work out whether it needs to be looped somewhere earlier (if it's late, or being followed by a late fast train), or whether you've got time to run it to the next loop instead. If (in Simsig) the stop in the loop was specified as "a12:16 d12:34" though, the train would be looking to stop there (briefly) even if you decided you had time to run it on to the next regulating point. A real Driver would, of course, realise that and (as long as there was no other reason for the stop - e.g. for the Driver to be relieved) keep going. The format "a12:16 d12/34" thus provides a way of getting all the information to the Signalman without enforcing an unnecessary stop. Of course, if you do run him into the loop as booked, the stop will be enforced by the outlet signal at the far end. I don't think you'll get the option of "call back at booked 12:34" though, when he phones from that signal. Hope that helps! Tom Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Please explain timetable format 20/02/2012 at 09:27 #29715 | |
postal
5190 posts |
" said:Thanks. So I guess this parameter can't be found anywhere in the TT Editor or in Sim options, maybe only in the manual if the writer included it?As a general rule, the late runner will stop for the minimum time the programmer has stipulated and then depart if still late; that means that the stop could have a site or sim specific dwell time depending on what has been put into the code. This will be overridden if a rule has been set. A couple of examples come to mind. It may be that there is an publicly advertised connections (i.e. passengers from A to C get off train 1 at B and get onto train 2 to go to C). Train 2 could then well have a rule set that it must not depart B until 5 minutes (or whatever) after train 1 has arrived. The signaller then has to intervene through F2 - Timetable options to ignore the rule if train 1 is so late that it is decided not to hold train 2 for the connection. IIRC there a a number of rules like that in Kurt's 1985 TT for Cambridge. As another example, some class 1 trains are for mail or parcels rather than passengers. Those trains have a very jealously guarded dwell time as the local Royal Mail or parcels company manager probably only has enough staff available to load/unload their commitment within the allowed time - they wouldn't have more staff to throw at the job to get the work done quicker. In that case a rule could be set that the train cannot depart until x minutes after its arrival. There are no doubt lots of other circumstances where rules could be invoked. Going off at a tangent, there are lots of Class 4,6 and 7 on the Saltley TT that have a stop at Landor Street Junction with a TT showing arr XX:XX dep YY:YY. In the real world these are normally for crew changes. In my experience of the sim, the trains either depart after a minimum time (the developer has probably set a site specific minimum of about 2 minutes) or they sit right until their due time; there is no halfway house of a train arriving 20 minutes early departing 10 minutes early. Having to assess the departure time does help to concentrate the mind in regard to regulation. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 20/02/2012 at 09:29 by postal Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Please explain timetable format 20/02/2012 at 09:29 #29716 | |
Steamer
3923 posts |
Late Turn said:I don't think you'll get the option of "call back at booked 12:34" though, when he phones from that signal.You won't get the option, because the driver doesn't think he's stopping. Personally, I edit the TT in F2 and change it to a normal stop time, then tell him to ring back at 12:34. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Re: Please explain timetable format 20/02/2012 at 09:39 #29717 | |
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postal
5190 posts |
" said:" said:The XX:XX YY/YY format is also very helpful for run-round movements - I'm sure this has been mentioned earlier but I couldn't find it on a quick scan so apologies if this is a duplication. On a run-round you quite often have a loco coming onto a running line, going back past its train and then backing into the loop or platform to pick up its train. If the times at each end of the run round are in the XX:XX YY:YY format, the loco may sit blocking the running line until due time at YY:YY. If the times are set as XX:XX YY/YY, the loco will start to move as soon as the driver has had time to change ends.Even specifying a stop period, e.g., a 12:30 d 12/34, if the train arrived before 12:30 or any time up to 12:34 it was not held at the signal until 12:34, it simply continued and passed through. Thus I can't see any value in writing it like this. I would have thought that if a train is going to pass, then writing it a --:-- d 12/34 or a 12/34 d 12/34 would be the way to go. So there's still doubt in my mind as to what writing a colon format in the Arr column followed by a slash format in the Dep column achieves. Are there any sims in which this results in a train being held or actually stopping for the minimum dwell period? As another tangential piece of information, I believe that where there is a reversal the code carries out a calculation of the time it would take for the driver to walk from one end of the train to the other which is factored into the dwell time. This is one of the reasons why trains take so long to reverse into/out of Kingsbury on the Saltley sim. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 20/02/2012 at 09:40 by postal Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Please explain timetable format 20/02/2012 at 09:50 #29719 | |
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Late Turn
696 posts |
Surely the xx:xx yy/yy format couldn't be used for a reversing location - as the loco wouldn't necessarily then stop! Either using 00:00 or specifying 'set down only' seems to do the trick if you don't want the loco hanging around mid-shunt (which, as you say, it wouldn't!). Quote: You won't get the option, because the driver doesn't think he's stopping. Personally, I edit the TT in F2 and change it to a normal stop time, then tell him to ring back at 12:34. Steamer, I thought that might be the case. Perhaps it would be worth considering though, if a train's stopped by signals at a location with a passing time defined? Log in to reply The following users said thank you: maxand, Steamer |
| Re: Please explain timetable format 20/02/2012 at 13:30 #29728 | |
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postal
5190 posts |
" said:Surely the xx:xx yy/yy format couldn't be used for a reversing location - as the loco wouldn't necessarily then stop! Either using 00:00 or specifying 'set down only' seems to do the trick if you don't want the loco hanging around mid-shunt (which, as you say, it wouldn't!).Stupid error on my part when I should have entered XX:XX YYdYY (which rather destroys my helpful (not) comment)! However, it has pointed up an interesting niggle. I've had a bit of a play on both Lime St and Edinburgh and it looks as if a TT showing XX:XX YY/YY for a reversing move causes the train to stop before the reversing location but report that it has reached the location. For example, anything on Lime St set to move from a platform and reverse at Mount Pleasant Tunnels stops at the platform starter with its F2 location reported as Mount Pleasant Tunnels (Rev). I think the same thing is happening for trains set to reverse at the other Signal Number locations but I didn't run a full test. Similarly on Edinburgh, trains from the East set to reverse at The Mound Tunnels stop in Waverley but report their location as Mound Tunnel. Setting the TT as YYdYY or YYtYY and they run as planned on both sims. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Re: Please explain timetable format 20/02/2012 at 18:43 #29733 | |
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Lardybiker
771 posts |
" said:Thanks. So I guess this parameter can't be found anywhere in the TT Editor or in Sim options, maybe only in the manual if the writer included it? That is correct. You could always ask the sim developer if its that important though to be honest, knowing what they generally won't/doesn't help you much unless you are writing a TT. Last edited: 20/02/2012 at 18:53 by Lardybiker Log in to reply |
| Re: Please explain timetable format 28/02/2012 at 00:29 #30134 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
This issue of trying to second-guess a train's ETD has been on my mind constantly since postal, Lardybiker, Late Turn and jc92 kindly replied in post #24 onward (in the current thread) and even earlier in post #9 in this thread. To sum it up as applying to those playing SimSig, we all need to grapple with (a) the dwell time at each timing point as stated on the TT; (b) rules for each train's departure that shorten the dwell time if the train is running late, and (c) additional rules determining whether or not a train can leave depending on other connecting trains. Now, all I'm really interested in is a train's ETD (from a platform when it is running late). I don't want to have to open up the Timetable Editor, spend time hunting for a rule, worrying about by how much the TT writer or sim developer might have shortened dwell times when the train's running late, etc. All I want is a new ETD that I can paste into a sticky note next to that platform, if it's going to be significantly longer than just a few minutes. I suppose I could just forget about it and wait for the TRTS signal. But as others such as Keith Barber have said, there's a lot more communication in real life that keeps signallers better informed than this. If a train has broken down, we get an immediate notification of its anticipated ETD, which is great. It would be nice to be able to display an ETD in the case of a simple delay, i.e., for SimSig to include it in its Train List entry while we get on with other jobs (that way, we could turn it off if we needed to by closing the Train List). All we see at present are messages that train XXXX is running 45 minutes late, but that doesn't help me calculate its ETD from the next timing point. Apart from using the F2 Train List, which tells me if a train is currently being detained because of some rule (waiting for another to appear, to join it, etc.,) is there some other method I overlooked which gives a more accurate ETD than simply guessing at it? Last edited: 28/02/2012 at 00:59 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Please explain timetable format 28/02/2012 at 01:16 #30135 | |
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Josie
310 posts |
(a) if a train is waiting at a station before its departure time, it will leave at its departure time, which you know from the timetable. (b) if it's running late, it will arrive at the station, spend thirty seconds or so on station work and then depart. (c) if there's a rule, there's no way of predicting the ETD because it's dependent on that rule's criteria being met (the software doesn't know when you're going to signal the connecting train into the station, for example). The only other time you're going to be waiting is if there's a random delay event, such as the breakdown you mention, and then you'll get the phone call. Broadly speaking, dwell time is always about thirty seconds unless there's a rule specifying otherwise. As Chris (Lardybiker) said earlier in this thread, there can be exceptions - but for a typical passenger train stopping at a typical station, all you need to know is 'about thirty seconds.' Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Please explain timetable format 28/02/2012 at 01:53 #30138 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks Josie, that's a handy rule of thumb.
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| Re: Please explain timetable format 28/02/2012 at 17:02 #30187 | |
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Steamer
3923 posts |
" said:is there some other method I overlooked which gives a more accurate ETD than simply guessing at it?I can't quite tell whether you know this from your post, but if a train is stopped at a station and there is a TT rule in force, in F2 it will say "Timetable Rule in force". You can then look up the rule in F4, knowing definitely whether or not there is one. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Please explain timetable format 28/02/2012 at 22:24 #30216 | |
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Late Turn
696 posts |
In reality, of course, you can't accurately predict when any train will depart. As Josie suggests, a right time train (or a late runner with sufficient dwell) will depart at or close to booked time (in Simsig, if there's no timetable rule). If departure's already overdue, it shouldn't hang about - but whether it's thirty seconds or three minutes depends whether there's hundreds of holidaymakers waiting to board, wheelchairs to put on etc. If it's waiting for a connecting service (equivalent to a timetable rule), communication between station staff or traincrew and the Signalman should ensure that everyone knows what's going on. Perhaps that's something missing from Simsig - some indication (in the timetable view) of whether a timetable rule is in force at a given location?
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Please explain timetable format 10/02/2014 at 03:13 #55338 | |
kaiwhara
584 posts |
Hi All It appears that a few new codes have started to appear in various sim's post SIMSIG Loader. One such code I have noticed at Brighton is xxwxx eg 12w39 for the departure time. There may be others, if so, what do they mean, and is it worth including in the Wiki? Cheers Andrew Sorry guys, I am in the business of making people wait! Log in to reply |
| Please explain timetable format 10/02/2014 at 10:13 #55346 | |
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postal
5190 posts |
" said:Hi All"w" is dwell time. If go into the TT through F4 each Train Type and each individual train now has an additional tab for Custom Dwell Times where the TT writer can set custom times for reverses, splits, joins, dwell times etc which override the defaults built into the core code. The dwell time can also be individually set at a single location within a train's TT. There are some nuances to watch (e.g. if you set a dwell time of 10 minutes so that the train must wait 10 minutes for departure even if it is late, the clock for the dwell time only starts ticking once any activities like joins or splits have taken place) so situations like that will still need a TT rule rather than reliance on the custom dwell time. You can combine the dwell time with things like "set down only" so a train like a Mail or Postal may arrive early, wait for their due dwell time then depart early. Once someone public-spirited finds the will and the time, I've no doubt the Wiki will be updated. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 10/02/2014 at 10:16 by postal Log in to reply |
| Please explain timetable format 10/02/2014 at 10:51 #55348 | |
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AndyG
1835 posts |
" said:Once someone public-spirited finds the will and the time, I've no doubt the Wiki will be updated.Brief note added to WIKI - Timimg code page. I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: postal |