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| Hints & tips 01/04/2014 at 16:32 #58158 | |
AndyG
1835 posts |
" said:And there are in fact several trains with the same headcode that take different routes in some sims - I believe the West Midlands lot have a good few where trains several hours apart reuse headcodes.And indeed at New Street trains with the same route code to the same destination can be going in opposite directions to boot, eg 1Vxx can depart either way from New Street and exit the sim at 2 different fringes to Saltley for the same destination towards Gloucester/Bristol etc. I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| Hints & tips 01/04/2014 at 19:54 #58170 | |
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Signalhunter
177 posts |
My hint/tip is that when I am due to leave a busy sim, I first of all pause it. I then set routes for ALL the trains on the panel(s). Even if it is just putting a collar on a signal. Then, I un-pause it, for two seconds or so and, check again. That way, when I reopen it, later, I know everything will be OK for a few minutes whilst I get my act together.
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| Hints & tips 01/04/2014 at 22:43 #58182 | |
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MrBitsy
121 posts |
" said:I guess this depends on the simulation. At West Hampstead, it would be impossible to run the service without using the auto buttons while dealing with all the other distractions. In addition to my previous posts about always using the auto buttons - there are exceptions! One is the up slow at Radlett Junction. We don't use that auto button in the rush hours because we don't want a fast service up the slow behind an all stations! All of us punch that auto and pull it straight out after each train. TVSC Link 4 signaller - Temple Meads, Bath & Stoke Gifford Log in to reply |
| Hints & tips 02/04/2014 at 00:30 #58188 | |
dmaze
88 posts |
A train description is not a train! Certainly if things are running normally a TD will follow along with the track circuits a train occupies, but it's possible for a train to exist without having a matching TD moving around with it. For a simple run-around move it may not be worthwhile (or even possible) to put in the 0Zxx headcode anywhere. On the flip side, it's okay to speculatively put in a TD somewhere you think a train will probably go even if it's not actually there yet, and cancel it if it turns out to be wrong. Try to mostly use the main (circular) signals when possible. Especially in station areas it's often possible, and a better idea, to set a route from one main signal to the next, skipping over intermediate shunt signals. Pause and take a breath. It's definitely possible to run a large complicated sim like King's Cross solo at peak hours...but there's a lot to keep track of. Even if it's "not prototypical", you do have that pause button available to stop and look around and try to figure out where that train is calling in from. A professional signaler probably knows where Marsh Lane LC is...but if I can't find it quickly enough to deal with the phone call, there's going to be a pause. Different sims are different. Some are larger and some are smaller; some busy and some less so; some have more "gadgets" like CCTV level crossings and absolute block signals and some are very plain. Consider Aston (a small area, but with a reasonable amount of traffic and an absolute-block section), Peterborough (a medium area that can mostly run on ARS), Wembley Suburban (very dense but with relatively few choices), Euston (make the right choice about the complicated station throat, but usually for only one train at a time). Also consider running the same map with different timetables; a "1980s" timetable will probably have much more freight traffic and use many more of the random sidings than a "2000s" timetable (especially pronounced on Cambridge). Last edited: 02/04/2014 at 00:31 by dmaze Reason: formatting Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Josie |
| Hints & tips 02/04/2014 at 09:04 #58214 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
" said:I don't want to come across as snippy on what should be a helpful friendly thread, but I think there's a difference between "hints and tips" and "basic signalling knowledge". Everyone should know the difference between a running signal and a subsidiary/shunt, and everyone should know that trains are signalled from one running signal to the next unless there is a good reason why not. Now, you can say that "it's only a game and I won't get suspended/fired/gaoled for not following the rules," and that's true. But equally you can't complain if things don't seem to work right and the panel isn't behaving as it should if you're not following basic rules to begin with. Advising people to follow the rulebook is not just a hint. Rant over, and apologies. Log in to reply |
| Hints & tips 02/04/2014 at 11:16 #58229 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
I agree with what Forest Pines just wrote, but it's important not to let this turn into a circular argument. What if the way the rules are written leave little shreds of doubt in your mind? Rules may be fine, but the real test is whether you understand them well enough to avoid getting error messages. If you get one it's either because you did not understand a universal rule well enough, or were not conversant with the local peculiarities of your sim, such as No route between selected signals. I find Interlocking error messages to be the most frustrating and the hardest to master. It's only by experimenting, setting different routes from A to B, that you learn why some work and others don't. You should know everything about how to avoid seeing Subroute locked in opposite direction, Points locked normal/reverse by another route, Route set from the exit signal - call-on not allowed, Call-on route set from the signal in rear, and No overlap available, to name some of the commonest ones. Experience results from testing the rules over and over until your speed in applying them builds up. Log in to reply |
| Hints & tips 02/04/2014 at 12:01 #58232 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
" said:Display settings can help here: turning on the "display locked points" option should help with flank locking until you've learned the sim; "display track circuit breaks" should help with most overlap problems. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Hints & tips 02/04/2014 at 15:17 #58241 | |
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kbarber
1712 posts |
" said:" said:I don't want to come across as snippy on what should be a helpful friendly thread, but I think there's a difference between "hints and tips" and "basic signalling knowledge". Everyone should know the difference between a running signal and a subsidiary/shunt, and everyone should know that trains are signalled from one running signal to the next unless there is a good reason why not. I think I want to add here that UK signalling is pretty idiosyncratic and even what we call 'basic' signalling knowledge may be the result of many years of implicit learning. I was visiting or working in signalboxes before some people here were born. Heck, in some cases I was probably doing so before their parents were born! Not only that, I enjoy reading about signalling systems, railway operating, railway accidents and such (not to mention all the anecdotes that have been published and the many that haven't and in some cases can't be). Forest Pines, I suspect you also know a great deal about the system (probably far greater technical knowledge than me, to be honest - I only ever learned how to break signals :lol: ). There are a lot of people here, I suspect, who've never had the chance even to see the inside of a signalbox let alone work one. And others who aren't in the UK and to whom our system looks like it's designed to prevent rather than facilitate railway operation. dmaze has picked up on something that a lot of people might not automatically think of - after all, the basic idea of a routesetting system is to set a route from one signal to the next, isn't it? From my perspective, I understand how the system we have evolved and so it makes sense; anyone who hasn't been immersed simply has to learn a rule that doesn't necessarily make any sense at all. If it seems arbitrary (even if it isn't), it'll be much harder to learn than if the logic is comprehensible. So perhaps folk will indulge a bit more explanation to support dmaze's hint. What we're talking about is 'facing shunts', sometimes known as 'running shunts' - subsidiary (i.e. shunt, in this case) signals that face an oncoming driver who is proceeding under the authority of a main signal aspect. They were rare in early mechanical days, largely because the authorities were so paranoid about facing points that virtually every yard or siding access involved reversing in. But it was decided very early on that it was highly undesirable for a driver who'd received a main signal to have to pass shunting signals in the danger position, so they came to be incorporated in the interlocking. Any facing shunts in a route would have to be cleared before the main signal reading over them could be cleared. A train needing to use that signal to enter a siding or an occupied line would have to be signalled other than by the main signal. Often the movement would have reversed to the position where the shunt would then be cleared for it, so no special signalling would be needed. Otherwise it would be common to have a subsidiary arm of some sort on the main signal. (That itself might require the facing shunt cleared before it could be operated; where the facing shunt read to a number of destinations the main arm couldn't read to, there might be several subsidiary arms or perhaps one arm and a route indicator.) I have an idea there might have been some locations where it would be necessary to signal the train to the main line then stop it short of the facing shunt (by handsignal, or simply that the driver knew the drill) while the signals were restored to danger, the route reset and the shunt pulled off into the siding. (Something of that ilk happens, albeit there's no facing shunt involved, with certain movements from the Stourport Siding at Bewdley South on the Severn Valley Railway.) Early power signalling schemes tended to use miniature levers interlocked in precisely the same way as the full-size levers of mechanical boxes, down to the requirement to clear facing shunts before the main aspect over them. But at some point, someone realised it would be possible for a facing shunt to be cleared by the same lever that cleared the main signal reading over it. That meant less lever movements for the routes affected and the saving in workload might either mean less signalmen were needed or the grading of the box could be lower. Result! As they say. The signals concerned might be lower-quadrant semaphores but as time went on, colour light signals became more common for the main signals. Shunt and subsidiary signals morphed from miniature semaphore arms into disc signals, although small colour light aspects began to be used and position light indications also appeared. In the mid-1930s, the LNER was busy installing colour light signalling and routesetting panels in its Northern area (the former North Eastern Railway, in effect). Something akin to the modern position light shunt signal appeared here (I think it may have been first used at Northallerton, where the panel box opened on 3rd September 1939, but I'm not absolutely certain of that). (Its triangular shape is what gives rise to the triangle symbol used in a VDU interface, with the circle replicating the circular light of a main aspect.) There was a difference though; the stop indication was two white lights rather than two reds (or the red and white that was standard for many years) and, crucially, facing shunts were not cleared for a main running move. After WWII position light shunt and subsidiary signals started to become more common (the Southern Railway stuck with floodlit discs for a while and small yellows hung around for a bit as well). But the stop indication was now one white and one red light, so once more there was a requirement to clear facing shunts. In a routesetting panel this would invariaby be done automatically by setting the main route. In an IFS (Individual Function Switch) panel, I rather suspect there might have been no standard way of doing it; a bobby might have to learn to set facing shunts individually at one box but leave the interlocking to do it at another (but I have no hard evidence for either method, I should say). What the modern standard is for an IFS panel, I really don't know (but that's a bit academic for SimSig because everything is simulated as an NX routesetting installation). Of course there is one very crucial difference between a 'main' route (set from one circular signal to another) and a series of shunt routes (from triangle to triangle to... to circle) and that is that the shunt routes will give no overlap at the destination signal. Which makes it a no-no for normal passenger movements. But if we get in to reduced overlaps (warner routes), permissive working/calling on signals and all the other possibilities we shall be here until Kingdom Come and my wrists will collapse with RSI!!! I hope some of that gives an idea what it's all about for people who haven't been (lucky enough to be? - or perhaps not!) immersed in the world of railway signalling. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Josie, postal, Southernrover, AndyG, Signalhunter, Forest Pines, maxand |
| Hints & tips 02/04/2014 at 21:16 #58271 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
" said:Forest Pines, I suspect you also know a great deal about the system (probably far greater technical knowledge than me, to be honest - I only ever learned how to break signals :lol: ).You're too kind - although I've done heritage railway volunteering on both the signalling-operating and S&T sides, I'm far from an expert compared to a lot of the people on here. Your excellent post made me think, though, and try to work out when I first learned all this stuff. The answer is that I really don't know; as far back as I can remember, I knew what the signals meant. I could only come up with two memories that I was sure of putting a rough date to: looking at the pictures in "Railway Signalling" by Kitchenside & Williams, some time before my fourth birthday; and around my fifth birthday, telling my uncle that a disused signal we could see a few hundred yards away across a field was a home signal. (I was slightly confused - what I thought was a rather spindly arm that had lost its paint was actually the pivot bracket of a somersault signal that had lost its arm; and to be fair I think that at that age, like a lot of enthusiasts, I didn't really appreciate the difference between a home signal and a stop signal.) In other words, "immersed in the world of railway signalling" is probably a reasonable description. Log in to reply |
| Hints & tips 03/04/2014 at 01:55 #58285 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Forest Pines wrote in post #31: Quote: Display settings can help here: turning on the "display locked points" option should help with flank locking until you've learned the sim; "display track circuit breaks" should help with most overlap problems.Good suggestion. I now always work with "display track circuit breaks" on, although when I first began playing SimSig I thought they looked very unnatural. I've also decided to check "display locked points" and this does help. Forest Pines appears to be the first in this thread to discuss (F3 > Options > Display) Display Settings. For what it's worth, I check all boxes in the first column except Panel Settings (seeing yellows helps me plan ahead), and none in the second column. Last edited: 03/04/2014 at 01:56 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Hints & tips 20/04/2014 at 13:17 #59141 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
As soon as a driver phones in to say his train is waiting at a signal at some location you don't recognize, hit Pause immediately until you find it! Don't scroll the sim while precious seconds tick away. Note that this facility is unavailable in real life. 
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| Hints & tips 20/04/2014 at 16:27 #59145 | |
postal
5192 posts 
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" said:Forest Pines wrote in post #31:Or currently post #5 if you have things displayed with the most recent post at the top of the list (or even #6 as I forgot that it would increment by one when my posting was made). “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 20/04/2014 at 16:28 by postal Log in to reply |
| Hints & tips 20/04/2014 at 20:53 #59162 | |
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Ron_J
329 posts |
" said:As soon as a driver phones in to say his train is waiting at a signal at some location you don't recognize, hit Pause immediately until you find it! Don't scroll the sim while precious seconds tick away. Note that this facility is unavailable in real life. :laugh: In real life the signaller knows exactly where train is without having to look for it. Log in to reply |
| Hints & tips 20/04/2014 at 20:58 #59163 | |
BarryM
2158 posts |
" said:" said:Unfortunately some are not real signallers!As soon as a driver phones in to say his train is waiting at a signal at some location you don't recognize, hit Pause immediately until you find it! Don't scroll the sim while precious seconds tick away. Note that this facility is unavailable in real life. :laugh: Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia Log in to reply The following user said thank you: postal |
| Hints & tips 21/04/2014 at 13:29 #59214 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Quote:Unfortunately some are not real signallers!My understanding is that real signallers don't work 4 panels at once, nor are likely to switch to a different area after completing 24 hours in one. They only work one panel for the duration of their shift, are likely to work the same panel again next day, so are on far better terms with signal IDs than those whose career interests lie elsewhere. Last edited: 21/04/2014 at 13:31 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Hints & tips 21/04/2014 at 13:36 #59215 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
Apart from relief signalmen who might be working an Nx panel one day, and a lever frame the next!
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
| Hints & tips 21/04/2014 at 13:40 #59216 | |
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welshdragon
315 posts |
Wrong Max: Signallers will be assigned to a panel per shift in smaller boxes (from my own experiences at Cambridge), but from my friends who work bigger boxes, you won't stay on that panel all shift, you will be rotated around panels so you can have a rest (so I believe). However, in boxes like Cambridge, you will have someone who will cover a panel for a time to allow that signaller to go and have a rest (the Meal Relief turn). So a signaller cam work all 4 panels, just not at once, and they don't work the same panel every single day (in bigger boxes at least). Please keep this topic related to Hints and Tips, if you wish to take a particular post further, please make a seperate topic for it, quoting the post, and providing a link back to here. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: DriverCurran |
| Hints & tips 21/04/2014 at 15:17 #59220 | |
jc92
3631 posts |
I think you're missing Max's point. Ie that a panel is a full boxes panel, not a panel in the sense of an allocated duty. to take Cambridge as an example. a real signaller will sign all duties, and may well work them all in one shift. hence will know where key signals are, but if you sent him to work Perth powerbox, I doubt he would have a clue where all the key signal's are located, without some time to get used to it! (which is the point max is making about changing area NOT panel duties.) equally, said signallers spend all day everyday of their working lives referring to these signal ID's, whereas the casual Simmer might spend 2-3hrs a week doing the same thing, and Jumping week on week. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Stephen Fulcher |
| Hints & tips 21/04/2014 at 15:43 #59221 | |
GeoffM
6288 posts |
" said:Quote:An extreme example but I know of one signaller who regularly operates an IECC area one day, a small lever frame the next day, and a big power box the next, geographically covering a few hundred miles in the process. And yes, most panel boxes / IECCs etc usually rotate during the shift.Unfortunately some are not real signallers!My understanding is that real signallers don't work 4 panels at once, nor are likely to switch to a different area after completing 24 hours in one. They only work one panel for the duration of their shift, are likely to work the same panel again next day, so are on far better terms with signal IDs than those whose career interests lie elsewhere. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Hints & tips 21/04/2014 at 15:55 #59223 | |
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Late Turn
696 posts |
I'll be working a (single manned) location with two NX panels for 8 hours on Friday, followed immediately for another 4 hours with a lever frame somewhere else. Can't beat a bit of variety in the working day! The chaps at Immingham Reception Sidings surely have the most variety though - a slide frame, an IFS panel and an NX panel all in the same box! Probably more relevant to the point that Max makes - reliefmen can sometimes go months without working a particular box. That's more likely to apply to relatively simple locations where there aren't many signals to remember, but they're still likely to be rather less familiar with the less obvious stuff than the residents who do it day in, day out. I could certainly recite all the lever numbers in one of my boxes that I've not worked for a few months now - indeed, I could probably remember the vast majority in the two boxes on the North Norfolk Railway, and it's been years since I worked those (and, of course, couldn't now do so without at least a refresher, probably a lot more). Log in to reply |
| Hints & tips 22/04/2014 at 02:14 #59271 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
GeoffM wrote: Quote: An extreme example but I know of one signaller who regularly operates an IECC area one day, a small lever frame the next day, and a big power box the next,I think the important word in this is regularly. Anyway I agree that this discussion is drifting a bit off-topic, though not so much as claimed. In most sims, players work more than one panel so it takes correspondingly longer to memorize. Anyway, the original purpose of a simulator is that of a trainer, to speed up the learning curve for a particular area (assuming SimSig/Tresim is as authentic as possible) and ensuring the operator is more knowledgeable when finally let loose on the real panel. So it's okay for learners to pause the sim and make use of other non-prototypical aids such as the Train List. Log in to reply |
| Hints & tips 22/04/2014 at 11:42 #59281 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:Anyway, the original purpose of a simulator is that of a trainer, to speed up the learning curve for a particular area (assuming SimSig/Tresim is as authentic as possible) and ensuring the operator is more knowledgeable when finally let loose on the real panel.I'm a bit lost. Simsig was never intended as a training program, as far as I know? Admittedly it evolved into that via TRESim, but if I remember the story correctly that wasn't at all intentional in the beginning. Log in to reply |
| Hints & tips 22/04/2014 at 12:24 #59286 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Just another quick tip. Many have spoken of the importance of scanning the sim in a regular order to make sure nothing is missed. It might seem trite to say this, but always scan in the same direction. Once you've reached the far end of the sim (let's say the right end, as I scan from left to right), resist the temptation to scan backwards to the left end. Like reading a page in English or other left-to-right reading style, jump back to the left margin as soon as you've reached the right end. If you think about it for a moment, if you scan forwards, then backwards, roughly twice as much time will have elapsed by the time you reach the left margin, doubling the potential for train delays exceeding two minutes and drivers ringing in. My preference is to scan by scrolling and jump back by clicking on the Overview, or hit a shortcut key if the Overview is too long to fit comfortably on your screen. Last edited: 22/04/2014 at 12:32 by maxand Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Steamer |
| Hints & tips 22/04/2014 at 15:22 #59311 | |
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GeoffM
6288 posts |
SimSig was originally developed for the home market. During the early 2000s it did form the basis for TRESIM but since then the two products have gone two separate ways - completely rewritten SimSig code, and massively improved in the subsequent 10 years!
SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Hints & tips 22/04/2014 at 22:44 #59354 | |
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Muzer
718 posts |
I've been attempting to play KGX single-player. I started a game a while back, and just got back into to it. Any hints there? :D (I've set failures to zero because, to be honest, I think it's hard enough keeping track of everything with only one person - perhaps when I get used to it more I can put them up a bit, maybe). Some of the harder ones I've played so far are Waterloo (without ARS) and Euston (with very unlucky failures through most of the day). I might be forgetting another one. What I would like to know is why there are so many timetabled crossovers between the slows and the fasts? Can't the trains just decide which line they want to be on and stay like that? Would make it so much easier to manage 
Last edited: 22/04/2014 at 23:12 by Muzer Log in to reply |