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| Faulty banner repeater 07/08/2011 at 18:36 #19206 | |
UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
I think this is in the right/an appropriate section of the forum The other day, I was at a certain London station seeing someone off on their train and when the platform starter had cleared I couldn't help but notice that the [very bright/clear] banner repeater wasn't clearing as it should have done since the signal was showing a proceed aspect. To be on the safe side, I called Network Rail the other day to report it and was surprised when, having explained the reason for the call, they didn't know what a banner repeater was......  :huh: :S
Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Last edited: 07/08/2011 at 18:38 by UKTrainMan Log in to reply |
| Re: Faulty banner repeater 07/08/2011 at 18:47 #19207 | |
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ralphjwchadkirk
275 posts |
Right side failure, so not an important fault to fix. TBH, I wouldn't expect call centre staff to know about the ins and outs of railways. I suspect they just send reports to the appropriate TSM to have put on the fault system. Log in to reply |
| Re: Faulty banner repeater 07/08/2011 at 18:50 #19208 | |
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lpeters
160 posts |
I agree that they probably don't know the ins and outs but they should know terminology like repeater, banner repeater, distant signal etc.
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| Re: Faulty banner repeater 07/08/2011 at 19:01 #19210 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2026 posts |
One would have hoped that someone from either the train dispatchers, guards or drivers would have noticed and reported this as a fault. Whilst it is not a particularly significant fault safety wise, it would have the potential to cause quite a bit of delay, and the S&T would have attended it as soon as they were notified. Log in to reply |
| Re: Faulty banner repeater 07/08/2011 at 19:06 #19213 | |
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ralphjwchadkirk
275 posts |
" said:I agree that they probably don't know the ins and outs but they should know terminology like repeater, banner repeater, distant signal etc. Why would they need to know all that? To be honest, all they need to be told is signal failure and the ID of the signal. Whether it's a distant, banner, home, starter, section or repeater makes no difference to them. In any case, as stated above, it would probably have been reported already as it is a very noticeable fault. Log in to reply |
| Re: Faulty banner repeater 07/08/2011 at 19:16 #19214 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2026 posts |
Although very noticeable, that in itself is no guarantee that it would have been reported. I once remember being asked to attend an AWS Code 2 (Where the driver recieves a horn at a green signal), and know for a fact that it must have been in a failed state all day, but it was not reported until 1600hrs or so after nearly 100 trains would have received the wrong indication. Log in to reply |
| Re: Faulty banner repeater 07/08/2011 at 19:33 #19215 | |
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lpeters
160 posts |
" said:" said:What I meant by that is that they should be aware of those terms so that they know that they are referring to, in this particular case, a signal.I agree that they probably don't know the ins and outs but they should know terminology like repeater, banner repeater, distant signal etc. Log in to reply |
| Re: Faulty banner repeater 07/08/2011 at 19:41 #19216 | |
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Late Turn
696 posts |
I'm pretty sure that, where a suitable track circuit is provided, banner repeaters provided in more recent installations return 'on' when a train passes them, even if the signal is still displaying a proceed aspect. If the train in your case was standing partially between the banner repeater and the signal, it could explain what you saw. Shouldn't cause any delay, as (and I'm sure someone will prove otherwise) platform staff should be provided with an 'off' indicator if necessary, rather than relying on a banner repeater that serves quite a different purpose.
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| Re: Faulty banner repeater 07/08/2011 at 19:48 #19217 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2026 posts |
There are banner repeaters used instead of "OFF" indicators in many places. Marylebone and Paddington in London both have this type of installation. Where they are provided in platforms, they tend to remain clear until the signal has been replaced to danger so that they can be used by staff rather than having to provide separate "OFF" indicators as well. This does have the potential to cause delay - drivers will slow down if they think a signal is against them, and station staff will not try and despatch a train which does not appear to have the road, even if in reality it does. Log in to reply |
| Re: Faulty banner repeater 08/08/2011 at 16:34 #19237 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
If the train is between the banner and the signal and there is a suitable track circuit the banner should display On. A separate off indicator should be provided for platform staff if required. K Log in to reply |
| Re: Faulty banner repeater 08/08/2011 at 17:11 #19240 | |
jc92
3630 posts |
" said:There are banner repeaters used instead of "OFF" indicators in many places. Marylebone and Paddington in London both have this type of installation.ive also seen this arrangement. mostly in mechanical areas but there are a couple of power signalled locations i can think of. doesnt cause any problems though becuase the banner doesnt replace until the train has passed the signal it relates to. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Re: Faulty banner repeater 09/08/2011 at 14:19 #19260 | |
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Cave87
9 posts |
In the case of a faulty banner repeater that is showing an on indication when the signal is actually off this is right side failure. However that said the rule book requires that the either the drivber be advised at the previous signal. This is not applicable if the previous signal is showing a caution aspect. The banner repeater will only be off if the signal is showing a proceed (Y/YY/G) aspect, therefore if the previous signal was showing green, a driver would see the defective banner repeater and think the signal it applied to was at red, thus being an irregular sequence. Rule Book T1B Reg. 9 http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Rule_Book/Rule%20Book%20Modules/T%20-%20Track%20and%20Signalling%20Work/GERT8000-T1B%20Iss%203.pdf Last edited: 09/08/2011 at 14:25 by Cave87 Log in to reply |
| Re: Faulty banner repeater 09/08/2011 at 21:28 #19283 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
However, as has already been said. Modern practice is for the banner to replace to danger as soon as the train passes. Therefore Banner On and Signal Off is not a failure when there is a train sat in between them. FF Log in to reply The following user said thank you: guidomcc |
| Re: Faulty banner repeater 09/08/2011 at 21:32 #19284 | |
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jc92
3630 posts |
" said:However, as has already been said.2 things here... 1. if the banner repeater is used as an off indicator then it does not feature this additional track circuit purposely to allow this use 2. having been on a railtour today and seen no less than 5 "modern" banner repeaters relating to "modern" boxes, not a single one replaced itself to danger until the loco passed the actual signal so im unsure where your idea of modern practice comes from an additional point to add i guess...if the signalling area in general had tail lamp replacement (york iecc and doncaster spring to mind) then the repeater and main signal would of course stay off "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Re: Faulty banner repeater 09/08/2011 at 22:10 #19286 | |
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TRC666
135 posts |
" said:There are banner repeaters used instead of "OFF" indicators in many places. Marylebone and Paddington in London both have this type of installation.Some stations like Waterloo actually have both. We have both LED banner repeaters and 'OFF' indicators on all platforms (some are LED and some are halogen). The LED indicators can also show CD/RA for ECS trains. Last edited: 09/08/2011 at 22:12 by TRC666 Log in to reply |
| Re: Faulty banner repeater 09/08/2011 at 22:49 #19287 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
JC92 The Design handbook states: Quote: Wherever reasonably practicable, and under all circumstances where permissiveHowever the signal principles handbook for banners does state: Quote: I stand by my statement, it is unlikely to be a failure. FF Log in to reply |
| Re: Faulty banner repeater 09/08/2011 at 22:51 #19288 | |
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jc92
3630 posts |
i stand by what i saw. uve also contradicted yourself becuase both quotes clearly state that a banner repeater at terminal platforms, or where used for dispatch are suitably modified for the purpose "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Re: Faulty banner repeater 09/08/2011 at 23:55 #19289 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2026 posts |
BS2R at Banbury behaves in that way, the banner will remain "OFF" as long as its associated signal is yellow or green.
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| Re: Faulty banner repeater 10/08/2011 at 07:40 #19292 | |
GeoffM
6285 posts |
Looking through some interlocking data I can see that there are cases of track-replaced banner repeaters. Due to the nature of banner repeaters, you'd need a short track section between the banner repeater and the signal so it's not too common. Perhaps if UKTM can allude to which London station he's referring to, I may be able to look up the data to see whether it was by design. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Re: Faulty banner repeater 10/08/2011 at 07:59 #19293 | |
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GeoffM
6285 posts |
Also found one at St. Pancras Low Level station: a mid-platform banner repeater will replace itself if the track between it and the signal at the end of the platform is occupied. Not sure whether this is actually installed yet.
SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Re: Faulty banner repeater 10/08/2011 at 08:48 #19295 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
JC92 I'd missed the fact that UKTM was probably referring to terminus station. (He says London so probably terminus). The first standard I've quoted is the design handbook NR/GN/SIG/11600. This is the bible as far as signal designers and testers are concerned. It's not really changed much since August 2000. You are correct, if it was a terminus platform the designer COULD choose to exclude the controls that require the signal to replace to danger when a train is in advance of it. However, it is possible that the regional signal engineer and the design authority agreed that it would be better to include the controls and provide separate OFF indicators for train dispatch. The second standard NR/L2/SIG/30009 is much newer. It was first issued in Sept 2009. Prior to that standard being issued the statement never existed in any other document to the best of my knowledge. I'll explain why I think it's unlikely to be a fault. If the Banner is in an SSI area the lamps will be lit directly from the SSI module. For the banner to show ON when it should be OFF there would be other problems which are noticeable to the signaller. If the output interface had shut down (red retained mode) it would effect other equipment fed from the same module, cause a loss of OFF indication in the main signal and will generate a critical alarm. If the area is RRI then the lamps will be fed over the BR GR relay. The position of this relay is monitored by the OFF & ON GPR which in turn is cut into the RGPR/HGPR relay. If the banner remained ON when it should be OFF in this case the HGPR would not energise and the signaller would not get an OFF (green) indication in the main signal. He would inform the S & T of theses faults and they would be sorted fairly quickly. Hope this helps FF Last edited: 10/08/2011 at 09:14 by Firefly Log in to reply |
| Re: Faulty banner repeater 10/08/2011 at 09:13 #19296 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
Quote:Also found one at St. Pancras Low Level station: a mid-platform banner repeater will replace itself if the track between it and the signal at the end of the platform is occupied. Not sure whether this is actually installed yet.Geoff, assuming you mean St Pancras Thameslink the Banner is high above the track and out of sight of the platform staff when there's a train in the platform. I believe separate OFF indicators are provided. It is commissioned, I did some of the testing! Kev Last edited: 10/08/2011 at 12:07 by Firefly Reason: Typed too fast. Meant to put Thameslink not international Log in to reply |
| Re: Faulty banner repeater 10/08/2011 at 11:59 #19299 | |
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GeoffM
6285 posts |
" said:Quote:There are CD and RA indicators (1031 signal); I can't find separate OFF indicators in the Westlock data but that doesn't mean to say there aren't any.Also found one at St. Pancras Low Level station: a mid-platform banner repeater will replace itself if the track between it and the signal at the end of the platform is occupied. Not sure whether this is actually installed yet.Geoff, assuming you mean St Pancras International the Banner is high above the track and out of sight of the platform staff when there's a train in the platform. I believe separate OFF indicators are provided. " said: It is commissioned, I did some of the testing!Fair enough! We do so many simulations I can't keep up with what is installed and what is planned! SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Re: Faulty banner repeater 24/04/2012 at 19:00 #31786 | |
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UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
Perhaps a long overdue update for this thread... I'll start by adding my thanks for the numerous replies in this thread. The location of this was Platform 4 at London King's Cross, which many will probably know is somewhat curved at the country end. Digging out the few photos I relatively quickly grabbed of it on my phone, the date was 8th July 2011. I wasn't aware, at the time, that some Banner Repeaters revert once the train has passed them and not the signal relating to them, but perhaps obviously I do now. Quite surprised if this is the case at Cross, since the trains (the one in this case was a HST) can't really pass them, per se, if they're starting in a terminating platform. Is there a particular reason for this change? Was it sparked by a particular incident? Thanks again, and thank in advance for any further replies. Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Log in to reply |
| Re: Faulty banner repeater 25/04/2012 at 09:48 #31797 | |
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jc92
3630 posts |
" said:I wasn't aware, at the time, that some Banner Repeaters revert once the train has passed them and not the signal relating to them, but perhaps obviously I do now. Quite surprised if this is the case at Cross, since the trains (the one in this case was a HST) can't really pass them, per se, if they're starting in a terminating platform.possibly a case of when a suitably short train (4 car 317 or 365 for instance) is sat at the blocks, it would confirm the starters aspect to the driver, as it would be short enough to make use of it? "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |